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Posted: 7/21/2002 3:00:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 3:01:32 PM EDT by Muad_Dib]
Here are a few good links to articles on the Posse Comitatus Act. [url]http://law.wustl.edu/WULQ/75-2/752-10.html[/url] [url]http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/02spring/quillen.htm[/url] [url]http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm[/url] I was semi-watching one of the political programs this morning, maybe Face The Nation, and caught Director Tom Ridge saying something that shocked the hell out of me. He basically was saying that we should think about repealing the Posse Comitatus act. For most of my life, this act has been abused or ignored for various reasons. With the current political situation I think it is not unlikely that some time in the near future we'll see this act ignored, broken, or simply repealed. Will congress take another baby step toward a totalitarian police state or will we retain the freedom that we now have?
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:02:09 PM EDT
it will be gone soon after the next major terroist act in USA, if not sooner
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:03:22 PM EDT
BABY step? That is NOT a BABY step. As Heinlein said, "The worst part about living in the declining era of a great civilization, is knowing that you are."
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:25:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Muad_Dib: Will congress take another baby step toward a totalitarian police state or will we retain the freedom that we now have?
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This administration and Congress has forgotton what a "baby step" is. Those who would destroy our way of life have made more progress in the last 1&1/2 years than the previous 10 years combined......
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 4:10:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 4:11:11 PM EDT by Muad_Dib]
Well guys, the reason I call this a baby step is because it is a law that is normally ignored anyway. For the most part, Posse Comitatus is already just a formal speed bump. Repealing this most important act, that the average Joe Sixpack knows nothing about, would be just one more step toward the end of our democratic republic.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 5:17:38 PM EDT
The reporters earlier today could not even pronounce it, would you care to guess how many citizens even know what it is - or care? We are definitely sliding down that proverbial 'slippery slope'
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 5:54:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 5:58:20 PM EDT by LARRYG]
Originally Posted By Muad_Dib: Well guys, the reason I call this a baby step is because it is a law that is normally ignored anyway. For the most part, Posse Comitatus is already just a formal speed bump. Repealing this most important act, that the average Joe Sixpack knows nothing about, would be just one more step toward the end of our democratic republic.
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Please give examples of where this has been ignored. For all you whining about GWB or 'the administration', would you rather have Gore? Those were the only real choices and I believe a lot of the posts the last few days about this kind of stuff are just a bunch of delusional paranoia. Some of you are beginning to sound a lot like the Democratic Underground.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 6:15:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG: For all you whining about GWB or 'the administration', would you rather have Gore? Those were the only real choices and I believe a lot of the posts the last few days about this kind of stuff are just a bunch of delusional paranoia. Some of you are beginning to sound a lot like the Democratic Underground.
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As the saying goes, even a broken watch is right twice a day. Gore? Hmm. Yup, he'd be doing the same thing. That doesn't make it right. It just proves Larry Elder's assertion that there's about a dime's worth of difference between the Democrats and the Republicans. The laws we pass today enable further infringement tomorrow - regardless of who is nominally "in charge." The Libertarians have it more right than any other group, but have absolutely no chance of changing the status quo. Those with the power aren't going to give it up. Nor are they going to stop acquiring more. I used to think that Jefferson's quotation concerning fertilizing the tree of liberty (which I know is an accurate quotation) was just hyperbole on his part, that he couldn't actually mean that popular armed uprisings by people who lacked information was a good thing. Looking back on the last 100 years of our history, especially the last 50, makes me think otherwise. He really meant it. Now, however, I think its too late even for that. Even an armed uprising won't change it. We're too far down the slippery slope that everybody told us wasn't real. The country we were given is not the country we have now, and we have no one to blame but ourselves. The Founders [i]told us[/i] what would happen if we didn't pay attention and retain control.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 7:59:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 8:01:58 PM EDT by imposter]
I looked up the Posse Comitatus Act, and am I correct in saying that it only applies to the Army and Air Force - not the Navy and Marines?
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 8:28:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 8:40:23 PM EDT by NYPatriot]
Posted by KBaker...
As Heinlein said, "The worst part about living in the declining era of a great civilization, is knowing that you are."
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Isn't it the sad truth! BTW... I'm stealing this quote as my new signature line (although I sincerely wish I didn’t have to [V]) Thanks.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 1:56:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By imposter: I looked up the Posse Comitatus Act, and am I correct in saying that it only applies to the Army and Air Force - not the Navy and Marines?
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Evidently so. You notice that the Marines do a lot of MOUT training?
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 2:03:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Originally Posted By Muad_Dib: Well guys, the reason I call this a baby step is because it is a law that is normally ignored anyway. For the most part, Posse Comitatus is already just a formal speed bump. Repealing this most important act, that the average Joe Sixpack knows nothing about, would be just one more step toward the end of our democratic republic.
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Please give examples of where this has been ignored.
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At WACO, there were "drug lab" lies in order to get military assets involved. Not exactly "ignored", but maybe "mooned". I'm not aware of PCA being circumvented "routinely", but if it is, I'd like to know more details.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 2:58:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 6:24:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG: Please give examples of where this has been ignored. For all you whining about GWB or 'the administration', would you rather have Gore? Those were the only real choices and I believe a lot of the posts the last few days about this kind of stuff are just a bunch of delusional paranoia. Some of you are beginning to sound a lot like the Democratic Underground.
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I'll take this point by point LARRYG.
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/02spring/quillen.htm Thus, almost any presidential decision or congressional legislation can circumvent Posse Comitatus rather easily.[6] In fact, “the trend during the 1990s has been for the federal government to erode the prohibitions of the Posse Comitatus Act in order to meet a variety of modern law enforcement challenges.”[7] Significant recent exceptions to the act have included disaster relief operations under the Stafford Act,[8] the “drug exception” authorized by Congress to fight the “war on drugs,”[9] immigration enforcement operations along the Mexican border,[10] and the military assistance provided to state and local governments under the Domestic Preparedness Program.[11]
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And no, I wouldn't rather have Gore in office. I wasn't whining about GWB either. This infringement has been happening more and more for [b]decades[/b]. This administration is just the most recent in a series that want to take away your freedom. The problem is that many people have little or no idea what is happening. Many don't even care. Some welcome more government control. Many are afraid to question the people that they voted for. They think that if they uncover the malfeasance of their elected officials, somehow they were wrong in the way that they voted. What people don't realize is that the person they elected is often not the same person six months later. The world turns, people change, the diligent continue questioning the government to keep their freedom. Just because I voted for Bush doesn't mean I'm going to sit back on my haunches and relax. Every administration has it's pros and cons.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 6:27:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By imposter: I looked up the Posse Comitatus Act, and am I correct in saying that it only applies to the Army and Air Force - not the Navy and Marines?
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Here is a quote from the first article that I linked to above.
A. Elements of the Armed Forces Covered by the PCA The PCA expressly applies only to the Army and Air Force.[66] Congress did not mention the Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, or National Guard in the PCA; accordingly, the PCA does not limit them.[67] However, the Department of Defense has extended by regulation the PCA's prohibitions to the Navy and Marine Corps. [68] Although, the Coast Guard is part of the armed forces, in peacetime it falls under the authority of the Department of Transportation[69] and has an express law enforcement function.[70] Additionally, the PCA only applies to forces in federal service, and therefore, the National Guard is not limited by the PCA in its normal status of state service.[71] Because the National Guard is the modern militia, this distinction actually follows the intent of the PCA, which was not meant to limit militias.[72] The courts have also implicitly limited army to the official military establishment rather than its broader plain meaning.[73]
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Link Posted: 7/22/2002 6:35:47 AM EDT
I just want to clarify that I was not attacking GWB himself. His administration, maybe. Tom Ridge, definitely. Here is the problems as I see it. Clinton made a half hearted attempt to repeal the PCA. The democrats are currently saying that with all the big business scandal and "poor economic conditions" they expect to take control of the house and the senate during the next elections. If this happens and they do gain control, and with an administration that is already saying we should question whether the PCA is needed, how long do you think it'll take before they are sending Marines to your door in an attempt to "discover terrorist information?" You should know that they'll try to take away your guns for the safety of themselves and the public. With the USA PATRIOT act already in effect, and no PCA, this could (I say could) turn into a very bad situation.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 6:42:29 AM EDT
A two tour nam vet gave me some good advice a long time ago. I think it fits now really well. "A .22 will get you all of the M16's you will ever want one day" c-rock
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 1:11:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By c-rock: A two tour nam vet gave me some good advice a long time ago. I think it fits now really well. "A .22 will get you all of the M16's you will ever want one day" c-rock
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I'm not advocating a violent resistance to the govenment. In fact, I largely support it. But since we've seen so many questionable things happen in the last few months and now the department heads are openly saying that they might try to repeal the PCA, it throws a major red flag up. Whenever a government begins to repeal laws which restrict power over it's own people, their motives should be scrutinized with a microscope.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 1:18:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Muad_Dib: I'm not advocating a violent resistance to the govenment. In fact, I largely support it.
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Uhh...what?
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 1:19:51 PM EDT
On a related note, it kind of makes you wonder why so many militia types are ex-military. Something to ponder... Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:38:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Originally Posted By Muad_Dib: I'm not advocating a violent resistance to the govenment. In fact, I largely support it.
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Uhh...what?
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On top of my poor spelling I see how this could be misconstrued. What I meant was that I largely support the government. [i]Not[/i] that I largely support a violent uprising.
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