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Posted: 7/17/2002 11:42:45 PM EDT
Yuck! The top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according to an unpublished study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and obtained exclusively by TIME: [img]http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/2002/0207/topguns.jpg[/img] 1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver 2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic 3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic 4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic 5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun 6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic 7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver 8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic 9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic 10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomatic
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:43:17 PM EDT
The list is derived from the center's investigations of 88,570 guns recovered from crime scenes in 46 cities in 2000, is being analyzed for ATF's youth gun crime interdiction initiative, which helps local police forces understand and counter gun trafficking to youth in their jurisdictions. One measure by which ATF gauges a gun's appeal as an offensive (rather than a defensive or sporting) weapon is its "time-to-crime" factor — how long after its sale it is used in a crime. Revolvers, not generally used as an offensive weapon, had a median time-to-crime of 12.3 years, according to the 2000 figures. At the other extreme, Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatics recovered from kids younger than18 had a median time-to-crime of 1.5 years, and those recovered from suspects aged 18 to 24 had a median time-to-crime of 1.1 years. The Hi Point 9mm is another downscale semiautomatic frequently seized from suspects in the 18-to-24 age range; it has a time-to-crime span of just one year. Though most teenage gangbangers wouldn't be caught dead with a Smith and Wesson .38 revolver, an old fashioned six shooter, it nonetheless claims the lead on the top ten list. That's because there are literally millions in existence; Smith and Wesson introduced the .38 in 1899, and since then, models have proliferated, transforming the name "Smith and Wesson .38" into a generic label for a particular style of gun, even clones that aren't made by Smith and Wesson. Similarly, the Smith and Wesson .357 revolver, which was introduced in 1935, and the venerable Mossberg shotgun made the list based on the sheer volume in circulation.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:43:24 PM EDT
But street criminals are interested almost exclusively in semiautomatics, preferring their superior firepower. (Semiautomatics hold at least seven and often as many as ten or twelve rounds of ammunition.) Gun traffickers like to peddle cheap semiautomatics to teenagers because they can tack on a hefty mark-up and still offer a weapon that costs less than an upscale gun like a Ruger or Smith and Wesson semiautomatic. That's why inexpensive semiautomatics dominate the top ten list. As it happens, many of the companies on that list have links to George Jennings, founder of the now-defunct Raven Arms and his clan. Jennings' son Bruce founded Bryco in 1992. According to the ATF, Jennings' son-in-law Jim Davis founded Davis Industries, and Lorcin Engineering was launched by Jim Waldorf, Bruce Jennings' high school friend. These companies and several others also linked to Jennings are known in the trade as the "ring of fire." While Bryco has recently slowed its production and has stopped making several models, according to ATF and other industry sources, gun dealers still have plenty of its firearms in inventory. That's why Bryco holds down two spots on the tracing center's "Top Ten Crime Guns" list for 2000. Experts at the ATF's National Firearms Tracing Center in Falling Water, W.Va., believe that the demand for Bryco wares is driven by teenagers and young adults who like the guns' menacing looks, ample 10-round magazines and rock-bottom prices. Bryco semiautomatics, which can be had in matte black or shiny nickel finish, retail for less than $100 new, and for as little as $55 used. By contrast, Ruger 9mm's are more reliable, higher quality weapons. They're favored by law enforcement officers, well-heeled target shooters and collectors — and adult crooks as well — and cost about $500 new.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:43:38 PM EDT
They should ban cheap guns then. [:D]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:47:16 PM EDT
Well, I have one of them. I need to go shopping. [sniper]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 12:15:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bunghole: They should ban cheap guns then. [:D]
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You mean Saturday Night Specials? Sure, lets ban cheap guns... poor people don't to protect themselves. Let's ban expensive guns too, nobody needs to be [i]that[/i] well protected (except the government, of course). While we're at it, lets play with restrictions a little, make the two bans overlap just a little, that'll solve everything. I know you just joking, but that's the knee-jerk response we constantly see from the liberals trying to shoot gun bans through D.C. and I'm sick of it. Think of the children (from poor homes that are protected by cheap POS guns).
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 12:20:17 AM EDT
i've heard that "poor people need to protect themselves" line over and over again but jennings and his ilk know their guns are the #1 for street crime. scumbags. i wont buy squat from a dealer at a show if he has jennings-lorcin-bryco-davis on the table.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 12:30:28 AM EDT
Careful, how you judge these inexpensive guns. Many people out in the real don't like shooting, and one of these puppies are just the ticket. These guns are accurate enough for its intented purpose. Most people buy one these guns, put 10 rounds thru it, and put it their dresser to be used in an emergency. Of course if you shoot more than 200 rounds thru one of these guns, the slide will crack behind the ejection port. The Jennings and Brayco is on the list of accepted pistols in Calif. The antis are pissed that they passed the stringent tests in order to be sold in the PRK. Lets put it this way, would I rather be confronted by a BG with a RG revolver that could miss-fire or a S&W M36?
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 2:33:43 AM EDT
wow, i don't see any of these with a bayonet lug, flash supressor, pistol grip, OR a laucher. hmmm, kind of makes a person think that whole 'assualt weapons ban' was meant to just simply disarm the public...... especially after a federal gubmit agency just told us that these weapons are used most... duhhhhhh
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 2:40:57 AM EDT
And if I'm looking at that properly only 2 out of 10 even have the possibility of using high-cap mags. The Ruger 9mm would be one, and the S+W 9mm might be the 2nd. Some S+W 9mm's were single stackers with capacities of 10 or less. Rifles, which AW's are a small sub group of, account for very few criminal acts. Knives are involved in many more crimes than AW's. Ban Bayonets that are not attached to rifles, it's for the kids..........[;D]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 2:55:08 AM EDT
I own 3 of the guns on the list, LOL. I guess I must be a criminal. Lock me up now.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 3:24:32 AM EDT
I recently went through our evidence facility's weapons shelves looking for weapons to be used for training. These were weapons used in suicides, assaults, robberies and various other criminal offenses. Five years worth of weapons, and almost all were the cheap POS-types shown above, and were absolutely useless. I did find a few Beretta 9s and .40s, and a few S&W 9mm pistols. Interestingly, I found no ARs or any other type of "assault weapon," save for one Maadi AK and a couple of SKSs.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 3:58:56 AM EDT
You forgot the Accutek!
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 4:13:07 AM EDT
[img]http://www.havenofrags.de/skammy/morelikeit.jpg[/img] Thats more like it [;D]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 4:17:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bunghole: They should ban cheap guns then. [:D]
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That would be racist ;)
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 4:25:26 AM EDT
[red][size=5]Where are the STREET SWEEPERS? Where are the full auto MACHINE GUNS? Where are the ASSAULT RIFLES? Where are the HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES?????[/red][/size=5]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 4:27:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DvlDog: i've heard that "poor people need to protect themselves" line over and over again but jennings and his ilk know their guns are the #1 for street crime. scumbags. i wont buy squat from a dealer at a show if he has jennings-lorcin-bryco-davis on the table.
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How is that the dealers or the manufacturers fault? If Jennings, Lorcin, Bryco and Davis stopped producing their weapons, do you really think street crime would stop?
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 4:29:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: [red]Where are the STREET SWEEPERS? Where are the full auto MACHINE GUNS? Where are the ASSAULT RIFLES? Where are the HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES?????[/red]
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[i]The list is derived from the center's investigations of 88,570 guns recovered from crime scenes [/i] [tongue firmly in cheek] Now if someone would be using his Thompson or MG42 for a drive-by, do you think those expensive pieces would be left behind? [/tongue firmly in cheek]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 4:54:26 AM EDT
I'm in favor of cheap handguns being sold for two reasons: [b]1. Poor folks have just as much right to their personal protection as anyone![/b] And if it could be shown that 95% of one type of weapon is sold to criminals, I would still want it sold simply for the fact that the remaining 5% are sold to law abiding citizens, and they need protection from the others. [b]2. If I am ever faced with a weapon as a customer in some ATM/convenience store/parking lot situation, I [u]want[/u] it to be a Lorcin, Davis, or Raven product![/b] Think, bang, click, click, bang, click, and the rounds are .22, .25, or .380. On the other hand, my return fire will be .40 cal from a Glock! Eric The(Astute)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 5:37:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Skammy: [img]http://www.havenofrags.de/skammy/morelikeit.jpg[/img] Thats more like it [;D]
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LOL! I demand to see your Class/Title whatever it is manufacturing license.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 5:59:00 AM EDT
It's like one of those puzzles from the cereal box: [img]http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/2002/0207/topguns.jpg[/img] [size=5]THERE ARE THREE REAL GUNS IN THIS PICTURE, CAN YOU SPOT THEM?[/size=5] ANSWERS ON SIDE OF BOX
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 6:02:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: I'm in favor of cheap handguns being sold for two reasons: [b]1. Poor folks have just as much right to their personal protection as anyone![/b] And if it could be shown that 95% of one type of weapon is sold to criminals, I would still want it sold simply for the fact that the remaining 5% are sold to law abiding citizens, and they need protection from the others. [b]2. If I am ever faced with a weapon as a customer in some ATM/convenience store/parking lot situation, I [u]want[/u] it to be a Lorcin, Davis, or Raven product![/b] Think, bang, click, click, bang, click, and the rounds are .22, .25, or .380. On the other hand, my return fire will be .40 cal from a Glock! Eric The(Astute)Hun[>]:)]
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When I read [i][u]Under the Gun[/i][/u] by Wright, Rossi, & Daly, I was really surprised to read their conclusion about "Saturday Night Specials" which went something like: "If the authors were ever to be fired upon by a criminal, we'd prefer the assailant to use a handgun, and the smallest, cheapest handgun he could acquire." I'm with you on this one, Eric. If we eliminated the cheap guns, they'll just move up to [i]real[/i] guns, and that's [i]not[/i] an improvement.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 6:02:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jetlag: THERE ARE THREE REAL GUNS IN THIS PICTURE, CAN YOU SPOT THEM? ANSWERS ON SIDE OF BOX
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The 2 Smith wheelguns and the Mossie. How do I claim the plastic toy I've won?
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 6:05:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan: I own 3 of the guns on the list, LOL. I guess I must be a criminal. Lock me up now.
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Naah, yer just a cheap bastage. And I'm a gun snob. [:D]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 6:11:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jetlag: It's like one of those puzzles from the cereal box: [img]http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/2002/0207/topguns.jpg[/img] [size=5]THERE ARE THREE REAL GUNS IN THIS PICTURE, CAN YOU SPOT THEM?[/size=5] ANSWERS ON SIDE OF BOX
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[:D] Now thats funny! LOL
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 6:18:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Naah, yer just a cheap bastage. And I'm a gun snob. [:D]
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Aye. I'd never admit owning any of those other than the Mossburg. My uncle has a Mossie for Turkey and Geese, and it isn't bad. Prefer my Browning semi, but that's me.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 6:29:33 AM EDT
And this is why bayonets are considered evil: [img]www.dimensional.com/~mwluse/bayo-pistol.jpg[/img] [rolleyes][rolleyes][rolleyes][rolleyes][roll­eyes]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 6:35:28 AM EDT
do any of those semi-auto pistols even work?
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 6:37:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By marvl: And this is why bayonets are considered evil: [img]www.dimensional.com/~mwluse/bayo-pistol.jpg[/img] [rolleyes][rolleyes][rolleyes][rolleyes][roll­eyes]
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Damn those evil features... [img]http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/evilsmith.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 6:40:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98:
Originally Posted By marvl: And this is why bayonets are considered evil: [img]www.dimensional.com/~mwluse/bayo-pistol.jpg[/img] [rolleyes][rolleyes][rolleyes][rolleyes][roll­eyes]
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Damn those evil features... [img]http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/evilsmith.jpg[/img]
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What? No folding stock?
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 6:57:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kar98:
Originally Posted By Jetlag: THERE ARE THREE REAL GUNS IN THIS PICTURE, CAN YOU SPOT THEM? ANSWERS ON SIDE OF BOX
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The 2 Smith wheelguns and the Mossie. How do I claim the plastic toy I've won?
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You win nothing. Mossburgs are on the list because the are so cheap (err, inexpensive). Look for the expensive guns on the list. All the S&Ws. They just happen to be there because they've been around so long and there are so many of them.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 7:17:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2002 7:25:27 AM EDT by Txsguy]
I wonder what percentage of each type was reported as stolen at the time it was seized? I'm betting that a MUCH higher percentage of the S&W's were hot. Over the years I've seized lots of weapons that were used in crimes against persons and it's rare to see a decent firearm in these situations that's not stolen. The statement referring to,"...88,570 guns recovered from crime scenes...", is broad and misleading. Notice that it doesn't say these firearms used in any crimes, only that they were seized from where a violation of some law occurred. This is misleading the reader by inferring that all these weapons were used in criminal offenses. I'm not aware of any federal reporting program where the category of offense is reported along with detailed weapon information. More likely, these numbers are just derived from firearms that ended up in law enforcement property rooms, even temporarily. There are many reasons that agencies might seize a firerarm and not all of them involve a "crime scene", let alone a crime against a person. Note that it also doesn't say what percentage of these firearms were eventually returned to the person it was seized from because it was legally owned or possessed. This article has some substance to it, but there's a lot it doesn't say.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 9:18:13 AM EDT
[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0LgAPOc8OVEUBBX3pU68C*TFibL*XcLd!fFfQ3GmJ4Eeu­fGQ4PzuZX9FLZko3*!fUFKhkfAvuCBc/001gun.JPG[/img] And you thought they were EVIL before...
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 10:32:52 AM EDT
on compliance with our federal govt new "tips" program .. I am forced to report what I just saw to the authurites..If this doesnt make up a consent to construct.....[whacko] yes im bored...
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 11:56:12 AM EDT
[b]EVERYONE MUST READ A BOOK CALLED "THE SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIAL" BY ROBERT SCHIMEL IT IS AN ANTI GUN BOOK, BUT IT IS ONE OF THE BEST BOOKS I HAVE EVER READ[/b]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 12:38:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By McUZI: [b]EVERYONE MUST READ A BOOK CALLED "THE SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIAL" BY ROBERT SCHIMEL IT IS AN ANTI GUN BOOK, BUT IT IS ONE OF THE BEST BOOKS I HAVE EVER READ[/b]
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I'd much rather hear the official McUZI synopsis than wait for the book to arrive ! [BD]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 7:48:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pdxshooter:
Originally Posted By Kar98:
Originally Posted By Jetlag: THERE ARE THREE REAL GUNS IN THIS PICTURE, CAN YOU SPOT THEM? ANSWERS ON SIDE OF BOX
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The 2 Smith wheelguns and the Mossie. How do I claim the plastic toy I've won?
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You win nothing. Mossburgs are on the list because the are so cheap (err, inexpensive). Look for the expensive guns on the list. All the S&Ws. They just happen to be there because they've been around so long and there are so many of them.
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No way, S&W couldn't make a decent auto even if another manufacturer handed over their designs. Wait, didn't Walther just do that? The SW99 is a joke. They do make a good overpriced wheelgun though.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 8:01:04 PM EDT
I'll throw another one in: The last several stolen weapons I have recovered were: Beretta 92 Beretta 92 POS .25 (Raven, I think) S&W 9mm (I don't remember which model) Ruger P85 All recovered from serious dirtbags; career burglars, mostly. Seems that they prefer medium to high-quality 9mm pistols, if they can get them.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 8:06:50 PM EDT
What about the Hi Point carbine? I bet you could really bust a cap with the one[:D]and it only $100. or so
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 8:20:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: do any of those semi-auto pistols even work?
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Yeah, the P89.
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