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Posted: 7/17/2002 10:30:19 AM EDT
From the Washington Times... [i]As part of the country's war against terrorism, the Bush administration by next month wants to recruit a million letter carriers, utility workers and others whose jobs allow them access to private homes into a contingent of organized government informants. The Terrorism Information and Prevention System (Operation TIPS), a national reporting pilot program, is scheduled to start next month in 10 cities, with 1 million informants — or nearly 4 percent of Americans — initially participating in the program. The program will allow volunteers, whose routines make them well-positioned to recognize suspect activities, to report the same to the Justice Department, which is running the project. The Justice Department will enter the information into a database, which will then be broadly available within the department, and to state and local agencies and local police forces. At local and state levels, the program will be coordinated by the Federal Emergency Management Agency.[/i] [url]http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20020716-75882632.htm[/url] So.... tinfoil hat?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:33:07 AM EDT
Very dangerous since everyone's definition od "suspicious" is different. There are many people who would categorize most of us as suspicious. You should add a poll.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:36:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:40:40 AM EDT
I see this as being no different than the status quo. Any of the aformentioned citizens can, even today, report what they think is "suspicious" behavior. All they have to do is pick up the phone, call the FBI, and say, "You know, the guys at 1234 Mockingbird Lane seem a little funny to me, and yesterday I smelled strong chemicals when I was reading their gas meter." How is that any different than what is now being proposed formally? While I voted "no big deal" above, I also feel that I couldn't care less. What I do wonder is why it has to be formalized. It would have been far more effective to simply ask that type of worker to report whatever they find suspicious, and that prank calls would be punished severely. Presto-chango, system in place, and for a hell of a lot less money. Otherwise, this doesn't bother me one bit.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:45:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:47:26 AM EDT
The image of that Barny Fife (sp?) as a air marshall comes to mind.... Poorly trained informents will result in many false arrest or wild goose chases. If they CAN"T handle the amount of info they are receiving now...... But Bush is good at "enpowering" the masses.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:55:42 AM EDT
1984 is late but it has arrived. Tinfoil is ON!
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It really has been here for some time. I the municipality I live in they have been actively soliciting information on a number of things for quite some time. We have water restrictions so..Call the water company if you see a watering infraction. Being right on the border of Texas and New Mexico it is cheaper and no emissions testing if you register your vehicle in New Mexico so..Call the DMV if your neighbor has New Mexico plates. It is illegal to have a vehicle that is not driveable on your property to prevent junked vehicles so...call the city if your neighbor has a vehicle that is not registered or does not run. I had a neighbor call the water dept on me last week while I was out of town because my sprinkler timer malfunctioned when the power went out and my sprinklers went on the wrong day of the week. 1984...It's already here.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:58:16 AM EDT
What I wonder is if the FBI, local LEO's etc, can get a search warrant for your house/car/workplace if you are flagged in the system. Example: I buy some stuff from Paladin Press. Buy a couple of cases of .223. Buy a new rifle. Buy some stuff from US Calvary. Would they think I'm up to something and be able to get a warrant to search my house, or would they stop by and "talk" with me? Av.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:01:16 AM EDT
Shouldn't the poll say "I couldn't care less" not "I could care less"?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:01:52 AM EDT
I am not worried about buying ammo mail order one bit. I mean, look at all of the mail order ammo companies in existence today for crying out loud! And think of how many folks order ammo each year. Those UPS people deliver enough ammo per year that I am sure they see nothing suspicious about it, only that they get sick of having to pick up the heavier orders! LOL. Believe me, there is nothing suspicious at all about ordering ammo. Even large quantities, as everyone knows the more you buy, the cheaper it is. I'll bet that the Sportsman's Guide alone has sold enough SA 5.56mm to have sunk the Titanic 10 times over! But either way, I can't afford to buy enough at once to look odd anyway. Don't let these liberal anti-gunners get to you. I have seen so many posts here of people who fear owning legal things and buying legal things. Guns are legal, ammo is legal, so why is anyone worried? I think these liberals have started to make some of you feel like you are doing something wrong when you buy a gun or ammunition. Feel proud when you buy one......as that is the American way!
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:03:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:06:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: Chimbo, you might find the other thread on this interesting. [;)] [url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=133151[/url]
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Yeah, I watched that one evolve, but chose to participate. I agree with you completely.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:06:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By Dukota: I had a neighbor call the water dept on me last week while I was out of town because my sprinkler timer malfunctioned when the power went out and my sprinklers went on the wrong day of the week. 1984...It's already here.
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Why, you, you, you . . . [B]HOOLIGAN![/B][SHOCK] Does this mean you answered #2? [:D]
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I know, I know...I'm a hardened criminal now, going down the path of crime, never to be a productive member of society again. YES I marked #2.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:47:02 AM EDT
How do you like that! I signed up for FreedomCorp and TIPS and now they won't let me park my black helicopter out on the lawn.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:47:03 AM EDT
If you as me this is just a way for the government to keep tabs on people without having probable cause. BTW, since when is 1 million Americans considered 4 percent of our population? There are an estimated 282 million people in the United States.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:14:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 12:15:03 PM EDT by Avalon01]
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: I have seen so many posts here of people who fear owning legal things and buying legal things. Guns are legal, ammo is legal, so why is anyone worried? I think these liberals have started to make some of you feel like you are doing something wrong when you buy a gun or ammunition. Feel proud when you buy one......as that is the American way!
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That's good you feel that way, but when your neighbor call TIPS to report suspicious activity, what are you going to do then? I've had the cops stop by when a neighbor saw me loading rifle cases into the back of my truck to go shooting that day. It took me 10 min to reassure them that it was legal to own an AR-15. Just because it's legal doesn't mean you will be hassled. Av. EDIT: I cant speel wroth siht.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:14:48 PM EDT
It does already happen. I remember a few years ago there was a cable guy or something like that around here that turned in a couple of houses for growing dope. Somehoe, if I remember right, the cops got search warrants because the cable dude (or whatever he was) said he could smell dope in the house like they were growing it. They were and....BUSTED! [50]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:34:46 PM EDT
I have been reading these responses and I have a couple of thoughts to throw out. One school of thought would suggest that so long as you aren't doing anything illegal, what would you ultimately have to be concerned about? If you believe this, then what would you say if all of a sudden something you do every day becomes "illegal", something like say... owning a gun. Or how about something more insidious, but possibile like... being a political dissident. You know, talking bad about a politician or criticizing any aspect of local, state or federal government. It happens every day. What if all of a sudden, that became illegal and your neighbor was a self-rightous "nationalist patriot"? Sure, this sort of civilian "spying" might happen right now. In the examples provided, the tipster's word is not the actual evidence used in prosecution. How do you feel about a country where the word of your neighbor WAS the evidence used to prosecute and convict you. How would you feel if the court you were tried in had no jury? That has also been recently proposed for "domestic terrorism" cases. Remember, the grey definitions of words like terrorist, terrorism, terroristic acts (Iverson was just charged with this) is what will be the source of trouble. Subjective interpretations of a person's actions or motivations spells danger when law enforcement's policy includes terminal force and house burning with court protection for their actions. Don't forget about some of the other legislative bills that have been kicked around, like the elimination of bankruptcy for individuals. Step back and combine the total parts of these issues and tell me what you see. I see a scary, totalitarian society split down the middle. I see a civil war between those who try to preserve traditional Constitutional rights, and those afraid of or loyal to the Globalist power brokers trying to create the New World Order. As far as I am concerned, freedom is dead. Geesh, I sound like Alex Jones.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:12:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By USNA91: Otherwise, this doesn't bother me one bit.
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I have a feeling your attitude will change once your neighbor of 20 years calls in a report that he/she saw you carrying ammunition cans into your home, as well as an evil assault rifle case, after a day at the range. The friendly UPS driver who delivered ten cases of ammo last year might think that a bit suspect also. NO ONE [i]needs[/i] that much ammunition, unless they're a terrorist or something. [;)]
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My neighbors know me, so I'm not worried. Besides, even if the cops did show up, I'd tell them I'd been to the range. Big deal. However, if the day ever comes that THAT becomes an issue, we've moved way beyond the point of 1984. I'm sorry, but I still don't see this as anything new...
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:19:18 PM EDT
Sorry, folks, but this is not at all like [b]Big Brother[/b]. It's more like [b]Chicken Little[/b]. Eric The(YouDon'tNeedAWeathermanToKnowWhichWayTheW­indBlows)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:50:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Sorry, folks, but this is not at all like [b]Big Brother[/b]. It's more like [b]Chicken Little[/b]. Eric The(YouDon'tNeedAWeathermanToKnowWhichWayTheW­indBlows)Hun[>]:)]
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Now you're being obtuse, buddy :P What's that supposed to mean?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:57:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 3:07:49 PM EDT
Taken from BEETLE JUICE I am,,,, Strange and Unusal. Make sure you give your letter carrier a 5th @ the holidays. I guess the FEDX guy that brings my CMP boxes along with the ammo will ad me to the data base. Oh well. I hope the guys that visit like Old rifles. I'll invite them to the range. Unless they are unsafe gun handlers.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 5:56:46 PM EDT
I'm an installer for Verizon and we do see some weird stuff from time to time. In our Code of Ethics we have a confidentiality clause that states we can not repeat anything we might hear or see while on a customers premises. Violation of this leads to termination of your job. So now I'm ask to make a choice between my country and my job. Hmmm. Say a repairman or a mailman or delivery person does rat someone out. Six months or a year down the road that person just has to call in another ticket or have something delivered.....well it's payback time for Jihad Johnny. Needless to say this isnt going over too well in my neighborhood.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 6:16:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 6:17:43 PM EDT by Gunner1X]
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Link Posted: 7/17/2002 8:56:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By USNA91: Otherwise, this doesn't bother me one bit.
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I have a feeling your attitude will change once your neighbor of 20 years calls in a report that he/she saw you carrying ammunition cans into your home, as well as an evil assault rifle case, after a day at the range. The friendly UPS driver who delivered ten cases of ammo last year might think that a bit suspect also. NO ONE [i]needs[/i] that much ammunition, unless they're a terrorist or something. [;)]
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The guys on the local radio talk show were ridiculing this TIPS thing and how it would be used against all sorts of normal activity that people will find suspicious. They summed it by saying that if it was only going to be used when the guys next door (presumably terrorists) are loading AK-47's into the back of the truck, they would be fine with that.
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