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Posted: 7/15/2002 11:56:31 AM EDT
Is Freemasonry a cult? What are your views on this? I'm not talking about the lower end of the spectrum such as Shriners who think it's a Christian organization. I'm talking about the upper end, the 'Illuminated' 33rd degree folks who worship Osiris and Baal/Jabulon. You know, the VERY upper end folks like GW's father and damn near every president in the last 100 years. Oh, and lets' not forget Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Robert Schuler and Kenneth Copeland. Yes, they are ALL 33rd degree Masons. Do some research before you call me an idiot on this one.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 11:58:49 AM EDT
Fuck yes it is. I know that Masons do a lot of good work.. But if what I read about them is true, yes. The are indeed a cult.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:10:33 PM EDT
A guy in my church who has done TONS of research on them puts the Freemasons as the worst cult of the worst. Almost like antichrist stuff.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:13:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: A guy in my church who has done TONS of research on them puts the Freemasons as the worst cult of the worst. Almost like antichrist stuff.
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ALMOST???LOL... This is THE cult to be in if you have any kind of power at all.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:19:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: ALMOST???LOL... This is THE cult to be in if you have any kind of power at all.
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He told me that Dubyas daddy was freemason (which DOES NOT suprise me cuz Bush the Ancient is ALSO Trilateral Commission) Billy graham? Maybe. The other televangelists butcher God's Word pretty bad, so that wouldn't surprise me either. Simple reality is that ONCE Jesus explanied His message of salvation, he became pretty unpopular. Christ said "If they hated me, they'll hate you also." Chances are ANYONE who achieves fame and popularity AIN'T teaching what Jesus taught.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:20:16 PM EDT
Just ask them about Albert Pike....
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:25:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: A guy in my church who has done TONS of research on them puts the Freemasons as the worst cult of the worst. Almost like antichrist stuff.
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Even worse the Scientology and the Mormons? Damn.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:27:23 PM EDT
IIRC, HiramRanger is a Freemason and a Catholic. I think that ETH has a relative that is a Freemason, don't recall if he (the relative, not ETH) is a Christian. See what they have to say.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:28:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Even worse the Scientology and the Mormons? Damn.
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Auggie, baby!!! How ya been???? Scientology and the Morons are fairly recent phenomenon. Supposedly (according to my friend) Freemasons traces its roots well back into the Middle Ages and before.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:28:59 PM EDT
I believe it is unwise to post on a topic involving the recruit pool for the Illuminati, the CFR and the Trilats., not to mention the Bildebergers etc. Crap.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:29:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:31:18 PM EDT
I'm a 32 degree Master mason and belong to the Scottish Rite. No matter what you hear. We don't worship dieti's. We're not a cult. I'm a Christian. There is nothing in Freemasons that is anti Christian. I was wondering how long it would be before we got another one of these threads[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:31:22 PM EDT
[b]Who controls the British crown Who keeps the metric system down We do! We do! Who leaves Atlantis off the maps Who keeps the Martians under wraps We do! We do! Who holds back the electric car Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star We do! We do! Who robs the cave fish of their sight Who rigs every Oscar night We do! We do![/b] [peep]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:32:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Scientology and the Morons are fairly recent phenomenon.
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Not according to them. LOL. You know them golden plates don't lie...
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:41:39 PM EDT
Many Freemasons shudder at the word occult which comes from the Latin, meaning to cover, to conceal from public scrutiny and the profane. But anyone studying Freemasonry cannot avoid classifying Freemasonry among occult teachings. Anton LaVey, the High Priest of the Church of Satan states: "[i]...Masonic orders have contained the most influential men in many governments, and virtually every occult order has many Masonic roots.[/i] Nuff said? The bible specifically says Satan controls earth: [i]II Corinthians 4:4; In whom the god [Satan] of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.[/i]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:45:42 PM EDT
Bottom line...who knows? I've had Christian friends who were masons. They said the cult thing is bunk!
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:47:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:48:44 PM EDT
HAHAHA. You guys have no idea what you're talking about.Masons aren't a secret organization. The places where we meet are in the phone book. We are a fraternity under God. We are not a cult. It is a requirement to believe in God before you can join.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:49:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Even worse the Scientology and the Mormons? Damn.
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The Mormons actually copied some of the Freemason's temple ceremonies (or was it the other way around? [>:/]), and until fairly recently the Masons did not allow Mormons to join (in retaliation?).
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:52:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: [url=]http://www.freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/1index.html[/url]
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I've seen that site before. Its full of mostly bullshit. I've been a Mason for quite a while and have no idea where the creater of that site is coming from. I think alot of it is funny
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:55:54 PM EDT
Funny to see all these people who fear (and thus hate) what they probably know nothing about. Quick to criticize uninformed judgements of gun owners but willing to judge based on "what you heard". I don't know anything about the Freemasons (?) but I don't hate them as a result.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:01:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/15/2002 1:47:19 PM EDT by Gunner1X]
Jack In The Box is giving away these free book markers with the purchase of any large beverage. Does this mean anything? [;D] [img]http://ew2.lysator.liu.se/loth/j/e/jerome/darklord.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:02:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmedAggie: Funny to see all these people who fear (and thus hate) .
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Seems to me YOU are the first to either imply or directly address "hate" in this post. Typical error of mistaking the statement of an opinion for hate.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:14:25 PM EDT
A guy in my church who has done TONS of research on them puts the Freemasons as the worst cult of the worst. Almost like antichrist stuff.
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By quoting your friend in this manor you seem to imply you are in agreement. So, are you going to then say that you would consider them "the worst of the worst" and then feel just kinda ho-hum about them? Hate may have been the wrong word but it seems a lot of people were quick to pile onto a group they know nothing about. Perhaps a better characterization would have been "a strong suspicion they are kinda, sorta not my type of people." All these people with "opinions" that have no real basis aren't just trying to push the debate along. I suspect most of these people don't understand and don't know anything about the subject but they are spooked because Freemasons are a "secret" organization. Therefore, they must be squirrelly, right?
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:22:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmedAggie: By quoting your friend in this manor you seem to imply you are in agreement.
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In a following post, I used the "according to him, supposedly" disclaimer.
So, are you going to then say that you would consider them "the worst of the worst" and then feel just kinda ho-hum about them? Hate may have been the wrong word ... Perhaps a better characterization would have been "a strong suspicion they are kinda, sorta not my type of people."
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Yes, that would have been MUCH better. "Hate" implies they are bad people JUST for HAVING an opinion.
All these people with "opinions" that have no real basis aren't just trying to push the debate along. I suspect most of these people don't understand and don't know anything about the subject but they are spooked because Freemasons are a "secret" organization. Therefore, they must be squirrelly, right?
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You are free to suspect people have no basis for their opinion, but what basis do YOU have for THAT opinion???(as you've NOT discussed at length with them. This forum is HARDLY the place to lay out a thorough, detailed, and complete system of beleif on ANY subject) Therefore you are suspicious of the anti-Freemasons, who are suspicious of the Freemasons. Ain't America great???[:D]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:22:57 PM EDT
Interesting that this subject would come up. I know nothing about freemasonry but have observed that it is quite popular in the Army. Sadly what I have seen of it while in the service was negative. It was very clear to me that the soldiers I saw joining the masons were doing so to gain favor with and receive special treatment from their superiors. While in Korea I witnessed certain "fund raising" activities put on by the masons that seemed a bit questionable. When I approached me CSM(also a mason) about it he told me not to worry about it and basically mind my own business. Hmmmm I never saw anything that would make me think of the occult, I just had a problem with their Masonic affiliation getting in the way of good military order and discipline. I'm not throwing stones or anything here, I'm a member of the Knights of Columbus and I'm sure some of them are doing some shady shit too. My insurance rep is probably a perfect example
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:28:31 PM EDT
Therefore you are suspicious of the anti-Freemasons, who are suspicious of the Freemasons.
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Stop it!! You're confusing me. Now I'm just scared of you. I need a beer. Agree to disagree?
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:39:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/15/2002 1:44:48 PM EDT by DevilsAdvocate]
I'm not here to 'flame' anyone or say that what you believe is wrong. Most if not ALL 32nd degree ARE good Christian folk! Here's the deal. If you truly are a 32nd degree Mason, AND a STRONG Christian, those around you will know, and you will NEVER become a 33rd. My Uncle was a 32nd degree of the Scottish Rite Temple here in Minneapolis. He was a strong, albeit QUIET Christian. He was tapped to become a 33rd in about 1990. He was simply asked, among other innocuous questions, if Jesus was God and Savior, to which he said 'yes'. There were 3 other people who had also been tapped for the same ceremony. He and another man did not get to become 33rds. My uncle, in talking to the other guy that didnt make it, found out that they both professed Jesus as being God. My uncle remained a 32nd degree, with misgivings, until he died in 1996. That was pretty much what piqued my interest in trying to figure-out what Masons were all about. As far as being a lower-degree Mason or Shriner goes, There is usually nothing evil about it, aside from some bizarre fraternity-like initiations. The Masons/Shriners have done NUMEROUS good things for mankind. I'm not saying people are bad for being Masons, but if you think that the ENTIRE organization is wholesome and good, you are SADLY mistaken. Also, I have read darn-near every book written by ex-masons (sadly, probably more than the Bible) and they never fail to conclude that the 33rd degree is pure Satanism. [}:D][[:)][X][[:)][X][}:D][[:)][X][}:D]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:43:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By garandman: A guy in my church who has done TONS of research on them puts the Freemasons as the worst cult of the worst. Almost like antichrist stuff.
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Even worse the Scientology and the Mormons? Damn.
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Both the Mormons and Jehovah's Witness were born from Freemasonry.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:46:54 PM EDT
The masons, while claiming ancient origins, actually date to 18th cent. Europe. They arose at a time when the basis of European civilization was under attack, and some historians view them as a reactionary burgeoise movement against modernization. Are they a secret society? Maybe. The 33rd degree will confer no more esoteric knowledge than a secondary school study of Greco-Roman culture. Are they evil? No more evil than you average college fraternity, but a whole hell of a lot more boring! Are they a shadow organization behind international events? Hell no! They're a bunch of ham-and-egger's who get a kick out of secret handshakes, wearing aprons and asking others if they too are 'travelers'.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:50:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: I'm not here to 'flame' anyone or say that what you believe is wrong. Most if not ALL 32nd degree ARE good Christian folk! Here's the deal. If you truly are a 32nd degree Mason, AND a STRONG Christian, those around you will know, and you will NEVER become a 33rd. My Uncle was a 32nd degree of the Scottish Rite Temple here in Minneapolis. He was a strong, albeit QUIET Christian. He was tapped to become a 33rd in about 1990. He was simply asked, among other innocuous questions, if Jesus was God and Savior, to which he said 'yes'. There were 3 other people who had also been tapped for the same ceremony. He and another man did not get to become 33rds. My uncle, in talking to the other guy that didnt make it, found out that they both professed Jesus as being God. My uncle remained a 32nd degree, with misgivings, until he died in 1996. That was pretty much what piqued my interest in trying to figure-out what Masons were all about. As far as being a lower-degree Mason or Shriner goes, There is usually nothing evil about it, aside from some bizarre fraternity-like initiations. The Masons/Shriners have done NUMEROUS good things for mankind. I'm not saying people are bad for being Masons, but if you think that the ENTIRE organization is wholesome and good, you are SADLY mistaken. Also, I have read darn-near every book written by ex-masons (sadly, probably more than the Bible) and they never fail to conclude that the 33rd degree is pure Satanism. [}:D][[:)][X][[:)][X][}:D][[:)][X][}:D]
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My Great Great Grandfather was a 33 degree. He went to Church every Sunday. He was very Religious Episcapalion. He was not a Satanist. He in no way showed any leanings in that direction. I know many 33 degree Masons that would give you the shirt off thier back if you were in trouble.If you were a fellow Mason or not.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:51:10 PM EDT
Heh, just hate everyone, it's easier that way. I wish I knew more about these folks. Wasn't Regan like the only recent president that wasn't a Mason? Well, better to mistrust everyone and be wrong about it than trust 'em and be right. [:)] I'm gonna go hide me and my 'puter under a rock and watch the squabble now. [;)] Toodles.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:00:07 PM EDT
After buying and reading several Masonic books, i came to the conclusion that Freemasonry cant be pegged as anyone thing. Freemasonry DOES have an influence on things. Some positive, some negative. There is accurate information about the Brotherhood, and inaccurate information.-seemingly dependant on which masons you meet. Masons differ from one person to the next. Lodges themselves change throughout history. In earlier days the masonic lodge was racist towards black people. spinning of the well know cult: The Knights of the Golden Circle, otherwise known as the KKK. Today there are black who ARE masons. strange. Early lodges did'nt allow women either, but thats changed as well. It is the Masonic lodges rituals that lend credence to it being a cult as they are representative of pagan religious symbolism. Masons deny this, but thats to be expected since most dont even know all of what it means or stands for. (if even their lodge practices such). To a Discerning Christian (which im not) they will perceive it as such from their point of view. In short: Lodges vary, Masons vary. Some Masons are Democrats, Some Masons are Republicans. Some Masons view christianity favorably, while others do not. There is no "one" world view for all masons. lib the(Ripper)Toon
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:10:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CAPITALIST: I know many 33 degree Masons that would give you the shirt off thier back if you were in trouble.If you were a fellow Mason or not.
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How many 33(why is there no degree key on these keyboards?) degree Mason's do you know? It was my understanding that if someone was a 33, you would not know it. Secrecy being what it is. BTW, nice stick in the bees nest DevilsAdv. ;-) --LS
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:10:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/15/2002 2:13:12 PM EDT by Boom_Stick]
Its a long read, but it will answer a LOT of questions. [url=http://www.hoselton.net/religion/hwa/booklets/masons.htm]Can a Mason be a Christian?[/url]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:11:53 PM EDT
Capitalist, Your refute actually make sense to me and I'm NOT trying to piss you off. It does not surprise me that a 33rd would give anyone the shirt off their back. Most Masons I have known were INCREDIBLY nice people with hearts of GOLD. The ride to the top would pretty much preclude anyone who was an ass. You are missing the point of the topic. When a member strives to achieve 33rd, they will do almost anything to make it happen. This includes acceptance of a new 'god'. The 33rd initiation is where you are 'enlightened' to the 'real god'. This 'god' is Jabulon. Jabulon is a hodge podge of Egyptian gods with a mix of Jehova God so as not to scare newcomers. Osiris and Ba'al are the MAIN Gods. Please do NOT take this as a slam, but why aren't you a 33rd? It takes a LOT of perseverance and goal-setting to achieve what you have achieved. Why did you stop?
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:21:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/15/2002 3:09:46 PM EDT by CAPITALIST]
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: Capitalist, Your refute actually make sense to me and I'm NOT trying to piss you off. It does not surprise me that a 33rd would give anyone the shirt off their back. Most Masons I have known were INCREDIBLY nice people with hearts of GOLD. The ride to the top would pretty much preclude anyone who was an ass. You are missing the point of the topic. When a member strives to achieve 33rd, they will do almost anything to make it happen. This includes acceptance of a new 'god'. The 33rd initiation is where you are 'enlightened' to the 'real god'. This 'god' is Jabulon. Jabulon is a hodge podge of Egyptian gods with a mix of Jehova God so as not to scare newcomers. Osiris and Ba'al are the MAIN Gods. Please do NOT take this as a slam, but why aren't you a 33rd? It takes a LOT of perseverance and goal-setting to achieve what you have achieved. Why did you stop?
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The 33 degree is an honorary degree bestowed upon you. Usually the average age to get 33 degree is 65 years old and up. You do not have to relinquish God for a different one. There is only one god. I know around 30 33 degree Masons and have been to Lodge with them many a time. You are getting some bad information to think there are other Gods you have start worshipping. I'm the 5th generation since we came to America to be a Mason, so my Father, Grandfather and I have talked quite a bit about the degrees and other things.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:24:07 PM EDT
Wheres HIRAM RANGER. Lets get him into this discussion. Anybody able to get ahold of him? He was quite helpful in the last big thread on this subject[^]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:26:02 PM EDT
Pro-Mason website: "Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry?" [url]http://members.aol.com/adehoyos/chap1.htm[/url] Baal: I could worship THIS guy!! [img]http://www.andrews.edu/ARCHAEOLOGY/museum/images/baal.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:41:24 PM EDT
We did this like 3 months ago IIRC. Basically what we found is that a whole lot of people believe the unsubstantiated rumors that have been circulating about Freemasons since the early 19th century. We also know that gman thinks that anything/anyone not subscribing to his brand of Christianity is a cult and abomination. I can't wait for ETH to jump in on this.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:57:36 PM EDT
This wouldn't have anything to do with the Rolling Rock thread would it?
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 3:07:29 PM EDT
Good Lord, Almighty! I have never seen such [b][i]dreck[/i][/b] in my life! Please try and think about what you folks are saying! In a nutshell, the sole activity of the Masons is raising funds for Masonic Homes For Children, even to the point of guranteeing a college education for the orphans it raises. In a nutshell, the sole activity of the Shriners is taking care of burned children. In a nutshell, The Scottish Rite Lodge is taking care of crippled children. I do not see, for one moment, what the Founder of the Christian religion, Jesus Christ, would have to say against any of these organizations! Now the Catholic Church has had plenty to say in the past about them, but that was for reasons wholly unconnected with religious views! Eric The(Informative)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 3:10:24 PM EDT
Sorry, [b]Redmanfms[/b], the Hun's getting too damn old to jump on things like this! [:D] I will, however reprise and reiterate my response from Feb 6, 2002, to the same type of thread as this one! Here, it is: So mote it be! My brother is a Shriner and 32nd Degree Mason. His father-in-law got him started in it! It's not the same thing you read about in some Knights Templar romantic novels. The Masons, the Shriners, and the Scottish Rite Lodge have just about one common goal in the United States - now dig this: The care and education of orphans, and the medical care and treatment of burned and crippled children! Their 22 hospitals take care of children from all over the world - the worst cases, the hopeless cases, the children whose own parents have left them in front of some third world clinic. [b]And you will notice one thing if you are ever visit one - THEY HAVE NO 'BUSINESS OFFICE' TO COLLECT MONEY FROM THE PARENTS OF THESE CHILDREN - NONE![/b] It is all done for free! As a matter of fact just about every thing that the Masons, the Shriners, and the Scottish Rite members do during the year is basically to raise money for their orphanages and hospitals! The Hun says check it out![url]www.shrinershq.org/[/url] Eric The(Not,Lamentably,AShrinerOrMason)Hun The thread is found at:[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=92229[/url] Eric The(IsThatBetter?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 3:18:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 3:20:09 PM EDT
If that's the case Hun, then why all the secrecy?
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 4:10:03 PM EDT
Oh, time to FLAME the fans. Eric, this is the first time we have disagreed on something. I never said helping crippled children was a bad thing. But I am quite amazed to see you stand-up for Freemasonry. What surprises me is that (in the other string) you didn't really know the existance of the 33rd degree. This alone shows that you really havnt looked too deeply into the concern surrounding the upper crust of the organization. I went to the string and read HiramRangers' (HR) responses. They're all well-written and show that he knows what he is talking about in his point of view, which is a low-level degree of Master Mason. Master Mason, IIRC, is about a 3rd Degree? I may be wrong. But his main statement is that Freemasonry is not a religion. Albert Pike, one of the most honored Masons, definitely considers Masonry to be a religion. That response alone corrupts his postings. Finally, Hi Capitalist =) In the other string, which is only 5 months old, you had posted that you were GOING TO BECOME a Mason. Did I mention that was only 5 months ago? Now, NOW, you claim to be a 32nd degree Mason. I thought you were a MUCH older person, as it takes a VERY long time to become 32nd Degree. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT YOU HAVE EVEN INITIATED OUT OF FIRST DEGREE. That is, IF you are even a Mason yet. "Real" Masons do NOT lie about such things, especially rank.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 4:13:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Scientology and the Morons are fairly recent phenomenon.
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"the Morons?" That's a bit arrogant and ill-mannered of you.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 4:16:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4Madness: Read some of the books listed on the [url=http://www.chick.com/information/religions/masonry]Chick Publications[/url] website. I have read the 5 that have to do with the Catholic church being the "great whore of Babylon" mentioned in Revelations. Pretty eye-opening stuff.
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Actually, it is pretty belly-laughing stuff. Nothing like reading a Chick tract to make you guffaw uproariously at the blatant lies that man tells.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 4:17:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By garandman: Scientology and the Morons are fairly recent phenomenon.
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"the Morons?" That's a bit arrogant and ill-mannered of you.
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Oh, lighten up. Wear boxers if need be, or cut back on the caffeine. Its a flippin' joke. And besides - can you PROVE it wasn't a simple typo???? [}:D] I thought not!!! [}:D]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 4:21:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By garandman: Scientology and the Morons are fairly recent phenomenon.
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"the Morons?" That's a bit arrogant and ill-mannered of you.
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I tend to agree that calling LDS "morons" isnt nice. Mormons, despite their VERY legalistic religioun, are some of the NICEST people I have EVER met. Almost EVERY religion has an upper crust that is twisted in SOME way or another. In fact, almost every power position in any organization has somethingtwisted about it...Power corrupts.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 4:21:58 PM EDT
Finally, Hi Capitalist =) In the other string, which is only 5 months old, you had posted that you were GOING TO BECOME a Mason. Did I mention that was only 5 months ago? Now, NOW, you claim to be a 32nd degree Mason. I thought you were a MUCH older person, as it takes a VERY long time to become 32nd Degree. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT YOU HAVE EVEN INITIATED OUT OF FIRST DEGREE. That is, IF you are even a Mason yet. "Real" Masons do NOT lie about such things, especially rank.
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I am a 32nd degree Mason. I moved up faster than most. I was looking forward to joining for a long time. My Lodge brothers helped me move along faster than most. They went out of thier way to help me anyway they could. Don't call me a liar when you are not a Mason and know nothing "First Hand"
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