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Posted: 7/14/2002 11:25:20 AM EDT
I have a Jewish friend who is concerned about all the recent terrorist threats (that goes without saying) and was asking me about a good long gun that could be used against a terrorist in an 18-wheeler (say one filled with gasoline). I presume he was talking about taking out the driver at a reasonable distance before the truck presented a danger. I can't imagine the truck itself could be neutralized quickly enough. I would imagine any good bolt gun in a magnum caliber would suffice, say 7mm mag or .300 Win mag. Would you think the .308 would not be up to the task? What do you guys think?
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 11:33:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 11:34:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 11:35:36 AM EDT
20 mm autocannon. Small arms are the Wrong Choice if you're trying to defend against a semi. You'd defend by placing barriers around the target. By the time you were sure the semi presented a threat he'd have enough momentum and be close enough that the rifle round wouldn't matter. If you wanted to use one nonetheless, I'd pick something semi-auto in .308, like an FAL. The theory being that it would be at short range, and volume of fire matters. You want something that can go through windshield glass and maybe a door.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 12:07:42 PM EDT
Either a M1a, AR10, or FAL and AP ammo. A .50BMG with API into the engine or fuel would work. This all depends on application.[peep]
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 12:08:02 PM EDT
any 30 cal with an armor piercing incindeiary Keving67
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 12:30:26 PM EDT
AGM-114[;d] More seriously, a semi M2 from Valkerie Arms, with APIT.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 12:55:21 PM EDT
This is what we just need. Wise man who thinks he's gonna stop terrorists with a gun. Leave that to the law enforcement. There are better solution to stopping the 18 wheeler than taking the driver out with a gun. Everytime he sees a dark skinned guy driving the 18wheeler, he's going to shoot him? How about putting concrete dividers in zig zag pattern so every vehicle has to slow down? How about setting up nail strips? How about setting up multiple check points where every vehicle must come to full stop. How about making the street narrower so 18 wheeler can't drive through? Look, there is very little you can do to prepare for the attack. You are not going to know where terrorists are targeting next. You are not going to know when the terrorists will strike. You will not know how they will strike. Just go about living your life to the fullest. Maybe you die tomorrow from dirty bomb but at least you had fun until the last day. Learn from the Israelis, bombs are going off there on weekly basis but they mourn, they pray and they move on.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 1:05:17 PM EDT
As someone has already asked: How exactly is this guy going to know the driver is a terrorist? Please get him to come up with a realistic scenario of this. Or is he willing to sacrifice a couple of lives (including the rest of his own) when he has a hunch? Second, assuming the truck is moving, I think the chances of actually hitting the driver while still far enough away to neutralize danger are pretty damn slim. I think a better bet would be for him to make sure his home is well prepared for the aftermath.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 1:23:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Graffiti: This is what we just need. Wise man who thinks he's gonna stop terrorists with a gun. Leave that to the law enforcement.
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Sorry pal but this crap just doesn't float. Its a good thing that the passengers that rushed the hijackers and brought down their own plane didn't think like you. Or we probably wouldn't have a white house right now. Its a good thing the stewardess and passengers on the plane with the "shoe-bomber" didn't think like you or the terrorists would have another notch in their camel saddle. Its a good thing El-al safety personnel didn't think like you or there would have been alot more than just two persons dead. Law enforcement show up AFTER the shit hits the fan most of the time. It is up to us to do what we can to stem the damage these total losers try to inflict upon us. Law enforcement does the best they can with what limited resources are available to them but if we wait for the law enforcement to take care of us. Only law enforcement will survive!
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 1:46:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By prk: As someone has already asked: How exactly is this guy going to know the driver is a terrorist? Please get him to come up with a realistic scenario of this. Or is he willing to sacrifice a couple of lives (including the rest of his own) when he has a hunch? Second, assuming the truck is moving, I think the chances of actually hitting the driver while still far enough away to neutralize danger are pretty damn slim. I think a better bet would be for him to make sure his home is well prepared for the aftermath.
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Okay, who the hell knows. It's a "what if" scenario, and the question is "how do I deal with it?" The answer is never, "I have no idea, so I'll do nothing." Maybe it turns out there IS nothing you can do, but you at least try to prepare for it. My friend is thinking of his family. Put it in personal terms. What would you do? I'm thinking 2 good pieces of advice here, one from the Boy Scouts, and one from Gunney Tom Hiway: (1) Be Prepared; and (2) Surrender is not in our creed. So I reject the advice of those that say "you might as well forget it, just drop yer drawers and bend over."
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 1:53:38 PM EDT
If i had a choice of small arms, I'd use a ma-duece to blow the engine to shit. Butyea, good point guys. Its a useless idea/worry. 18 wheelers are big boys, it'd be better to use a road trap or something.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 2:00:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 2:24:13 PM EDT
If at all possible, shoot out the front tire on the curb side of the vehicle. Hopefully it will cause the vehicle to pull hard in that direction, and maybe hit something to stop it.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 2:25:57 PM EDT
Didn't some guy try this in Sacramento a couple of years back? I think he took some kind of tanker truck around the Capitol a couple of times before he drove in to say hello. If your friend feels he has real reason to be concerned, like a few hundred people in services and credible threats, then maybe barricades or moving the place of meeting altogether should be considered. If he thinks he can kid himself about his effectiveness against a threat like that, which probably wouldn't be confirmed untill the last five seconds of its approach, I wouldn't waste time hanging (around) onto a rifle. I'd be running my ass off. Yelling over my shoulder maybe, but running. El Al air marshalls are armed, and if they have to go into action, it is because their security has failed. He should take the same approach. If he gets expert advice that this might actually have some benefit, then experts will also advise him what to use( >.338 Lapua magnum against the engine block) . Untill then, he shouldn't kid himself. He ought to know : truck routes in the area, the location of gas stations in the area, the routes that tankers use in and out, whether deliveries are scheduled or as needed, whether any deliveries occur on Saturdays, other harzardous facilities in the area and the types of transport associated wth them; and a liason with the police dept so if a tanker is hijacked, word can be passed on immediately and any target areas evacuated or any other defensive measure as needed. Then if something is out of place if would be noticed much earlier. If the area around a target isn't off limits to commercial vehicles or trucks, see if it is reaonable to do so and petition the city traffic dept. Then any truck would be an obvious cause for concern if it showed up in the area. And a rifle has its place. Just don't kid yourself about it.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 2:37:50 PM EDT
Why is he worried and what's the big deal if he is Jewish....Is he willing to take out a tanker in a non-Jewish community before it reached his? I do not mean this has a Flame on your question. It's just that the Jewish hit a nerve in me today. I was asked if I carry a gun because I am a Jew and then told I'm a coward...Long story. To answer your question I would take a 308 or one of those new Barret Semi-Auto 50's. I think I would have more luck with a 308 unless I want to hit the truck. I think going for the tires like Don said would be better. Then when he got out THIS Coward would put a bullet in his head unless I was able to slit his throat.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 2:38:35 PM EDT
What do I think? I think if I was really concerned, I'd begin looking for a way through the paper maze to obtain something along the lines of an old tank. Maybe a -60. They had that neat little hatch in the bottom, so I could park it over the top of my secret excape tunnel.....But that's a secret, and I can't say anything about that [}:D] FOTBR
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 2:40:14 PM EDT
A MK19 with HP rounds will get the job done.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 2:43:50 PM EDT
I'd probably dump everything I had into the radiator in hopes of breaking the engine.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 2:43:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 2:51:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/14/2002 2:59:04 PM EDT by Graffiti]
Originally Posted By Lckydevl: Sorry pal but this crap just doesn't float. Its a good thing that the passengers that rushed the hijackers and brought down their own plane didn't think like you. Or we probably wouldn't have a white house right now. Its a good thing the stewardess and passengers on the plane with the "shoe-bomber" didn't think like you or the terrorists would have another notch in their camel saddle. Its a good thing El-al safety personnel didn't think like you or there would have been alot more than just two persons dead.
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Lets see... 1) 9/11 airplane hijack incident - people knew that the plane was hijacked and most likely knew that the plane was headed for Whitehouse. So they got up and began fighting the terrorist. 2) Stewardess smelled the sulfur and saw the shoebomber trying to light the shoe bomb. People stepped in to subdue him. 3) Some nutcase goes off and began shooting people at LAX El Al counter and people jumped him. Do I see anything wrong with above? No, act of terror has already began when the people intervened. People knew what the hell was up. But in the 18wheeler case, how do you separate a terrorist from a guy who's just making delivery of harmless goods? You intend on shooting every truck driver you see on the road? Use of deadly force should be the last option, not the one and only option. Besides, who even authorized you to be out in the public with loaded rifle and license to kill?
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 2:56:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Graffiti: This is what we just need. Wise man who thinks he's gonna stop terrorists with a gun.
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Jewish women who carry while doing daily errands like grocery shopping, have shot suicide bombers dead before they had a chance to detonate. These bombers got by checkpoints and security guards before the civilian women smelled a rat and defended themselves. Haven't heard of any accidental shootings, either.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 3:05:15 PM EDT
I'm on the board of a religious school that had many of the same concerns. Also on the security committee. As was said before, the best thing is planning. Jersey blocks are used in a zig zag pattern to stop this sort of attack. We also have many other security options in place. If your friend is concerned about a school or public place like a synagogue or JCC, have him emails me and I'll be happy to tell him what we have done here. I'd need to talk to him in person before giving him any info.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 3:19:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By Graffiti: This is what we just need. Wise man who thinks he's gonna stop terrorists with a gun.
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Jewish women who carry while doing daily errands like grocery shopping, have shot suicide bombers dead before they had a chance to detonate. These bombers got by checkpoints and security guards before the civilian women smelled a rat and defended themselves. Haven't heard of any accidental shootings, either.
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Answer is simple, lady had prior warning before she acted. Probably the suicide bomber announced he's(or she's) strapped with bomb. How about the 18wheeler case? You think terrorists will paint the truck "I'm a terrorist, I'm driving this truck into the building, shoot me if you can" ?
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 3:42:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Graffiti: This is what we just need. Wise man who thinks he's gonna stop terrorists with a gun. Leave that to the law enforcement. There are better solution to stopping the 18 wheeler than taking the driver out with a gun. Everytime he sees a dark skinned guy driving the 18wheeler, he's going to shoot him? How about putting concrete dividers in zig zag pattern so every vehicle has to slow down? How about setting up nail strips? How about setting up multiple check points where every vehicle must come to full stop. How about making the street narrower so 18 wheeler can't drive through? Look, there is very little you can do to prepare for the attack. You are not going to know where terrorists are targeting next. You are not going to know when the terrorists will strike. You will not know how they will strike. Just go about living your life to the fullest. Maybe you die tomorrow from dirty bomb but at least you had fun until the last day. Learn from the Israelis, bombs are going off there on weekly basis but they mourn, they pray and they move on.
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Graffiti, I think you have a bright future in Kalifornia politics, it you choose to persue it. [rolleyes] I live in a quiet, upscale residential neighborhood, on a street that has no outlet. If I saw a tanker truck parked outside, I sure as hell would go investigate and see what it was and why it was outside my house. That doesn't mean I'd exit the front door blazing away with my AR. But if it was being manned by a couple of Middle Eastern men, I'd probably return to the house and arm myself. Again, that doesn't mean I'd come out shooting, it would be a precaution. And I'm sorry if this sounds like racial profiling, but, duh, so far only Middle Easterners hasve committed terrorist acts in this country (ignoring Tim McVeigh, or course). My friend lives in a quiet Jewish neighborhood. There's a synagogue 2 blocks from his house. If a large tanker truck showed up there, I'm sure he would investigate to make sure it was legitimately there. That's just a sound precaution. Again, I would not expect him to go running up the street blazing away with an Uzi or MP5. But I can imagine many scenarios where a simple inquiry could esculate. He approaches the vehicle and discovers a Middle Eastern driver. He demands to know what he's doing in the neighborhood. The driver ignores him and attempts to speed away (to the extent that you can in a large vehicle). Or maybe the driver pulls a gun. I think in these circumstances it is not unreasonable to try to disable the vehicle, possibly even the driver. BTW, where do you stand on a "fat tax" on soda pop? Just curious.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 3:59:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 3:59:21 PM EDT
Fortunately, his Jewish friend attends services at Beth Israel ben Midbar, America's only synagogue located on a salt flat. He'll be able to see the truck coming from several miles away, and shoot at it for nearly ten minutes. [BD]
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 4:00:39 PM EDT
I can tell you from experience, you want to be [b]NOWHERE NEAR[/b] a flaming/exploding tanker truck. Several years ago I had one roll over and blow up in front of me. 9,600 gallons of gasoline makes a [b]VERY large, VERY hot[/b] fire. Thank God for good brakes & fast reflexes. The paint on the front of my truck was a little singed, other than that we came through it unscathed.4 other people weren’t so lucky. Again let me state, burning tanker trucks are BAD MMkay. echo6
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 4:03:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Spearweasel: Fortunately, his Jewish friend attends services at Beth Israel ben Midbar, America's only synagogue located on a salt flat. He'll be able to see the truck coming from several miles away, and shoot at it for nearly ten minutes. [BD]
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Just wait until the Eskimoes declare a Jihad against Texans. You'll probably be yelling for a ban on heavy fur clothing. [whacko]
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 5:09:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Graffiti:
Originally Posted By Lckydevl: Sorry pal but this crap just doesn't float. Its a good thing that the passengers that rushed the hijackers and brought down their own plane didn't think like you. Or we probably wouldn't have a white house right now. Its a good thing the stewardess and passengers on the plane with the "shoe-bomber" didn't think like you or the terrorists would have another notch in their camel saddle. Its a good thing El-al safety personnel didn't think like you or there would have been alot more than just two persons dead.
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Lets see... 1) 9/11 airplane hijack incident - people knew that the plane was hijacked and most likely knew that the plane was headed for Whitehouse. So they got up and began fighting the terrorist. 2) Stewardess smelled the sulfur and saw the shoebomber trying to light the shoe bomb. People stepped in to subdue him. 3) Some nutcase goes off and began shooting people at LAX El Al counter and people jumped him. Do I see anything wrong with above? No, act of terror has already began when the people intervened. People knew what the hell was up. But in the 18wheeler case, how do you separate a terrorist from a guy who's just making delivery of harmless goods? You intend on shooting every truck driver you see on the road? Use of deadly force should be the last option, not the one and only option. Besides, who even authorized you to be out in the public with loaded rifle and license to kill?
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Your reasoning would make alot more sense if wasn't loaded with what if's. Common sense would tell you the man's post was concerning a citizen trying to protect himself or his family. You are trying to portray him as a trigger happy gunfreak just looking for a reason to drop the hammer on somebody. Troll? Oh and by the way, the second amendment authorize's ME to be out in public with a loaded weapon!
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 5:26:27 PM EDT
I would go with grenade launchers, artillery or RPGs.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 5:39:19 PM EDT
There is a GE mini gun for sale on SUB Guns. It's only $120,000.00 After he gets done with the paper work and waits for about a year then he can have his day of tanker shooting. A better bet for a quick fix would be a barret semi auto and lots of practice on salvage yard glass. That's a weird request. I wouldn't think you would have enough time to react if that would happen. If you had enough time then every LEO in the state would be in on that shootout.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 5:39:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/14/2002 5:51:00 PM EDT by prk]
Originally Posted By marvl:
Originally Posted By prk: As someone has already asked: How exactly is this guy going to know the driver is a terrorist? Please get him to come up with a realistic scenario of this. Or is he willing to sacrifice a couple of lives (including the rest of his own) when he has a hunch? Second, assuming the truck is moving, I think the chances of actually hitting the driver while still far enough away to neutralize danger are pretty damn slim. I think a better bet would be for him to make sure his home is well prepared for the aftermath.
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Okay, who the hell knows. It's a "what if" scenario, and the question is "how do I deal with it?" The answer is never, "I have no idea, so I'll do nothing." Maybe it turns out there IS nothing you can do, but you at least try to prepare for it. My friend is thinking of his family. Put it in personal terms. What would you do? I'm thinking 2 good pieces of advice here, one from the Boy Scouts, and one from Gunney Tom Hiway: (1) Be Prepared; and (2) Surrender is not in our creed. So I reject the advice of those that say "you might as well forget it, just drop yer drawers and bend over."
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I agree with "Be prepared". The question really is, "for what?" I still think that unless there's he has some special information or plans to patrol his neighborhood with a loaded weapon (not recommended at this point since we are not in the officials mind yet at the same risk as you see in Israel) or stand guard at the synagogue, chances are very high he will NOT be at the right place at the right time to intervene if something SHOULD go down. So I still think that absent one of these special factors, if something does go down, his position will be one of dealing with what occurred and its effects, not being the hero that stops it. Is he thinking of his family being the target of an 18-wheeler? Or the synagogue? I would think a family or single individual would be most likely to be attacked by something other than an 18-wheeler. From the tango's point of view, would you need an 18-wheeler for a single family? That would have to be one very important family. For individual/family protection, I would say a handgun or shotgun. If the synagogue is what he's worried about, he should take up his concerns with the leaders there, work with them, but also prepare his home for public emergencies such as riot, lack of utilities, maybe even biochem, though the biological part is hard to detect in time. My reply did not suggest surrender, by the way, but instead acting with a better grip on the actual likely risk. If he really thinks he is going to be on the scene and intervene with an 18-wheeler, then I think he could use a reality check. Hopefully someone would be in a position to deal with it, but the chances of it being him are not good. The chances of a proper and successful intervention would be a little better, of course, if legal carry were more widespread. Does he recognize in any way that he just might be going a LITTLE overboard in his imagination as an action hero?
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 6:27:21 PM EDT
Barrett M82A1 with API rounds should do the trick. Still would like to know how one would know of the threat in time to take action.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 7:05:51 PM EDT
Well, let's see, I've driven a tractor-trailer for over ten years. The best way to stop one is to restrict it's forward movement, i.e. cause it to turn. Most times any tractor-trailer rolls over or looses control, it's in a turn (usually too fast). The absolute best way to stop this type of attack is to use obstacles covered by direct fire (just like they teach you to in the Army). Use concrete "Jersy walls" to channel the truck and slow it down. This is what works and that's why you see these types of things, or other obstacles, like huge dirt filled planters, or decorative stepped gardens on many government buildings that have been designed with defense in mind. Then cover it with a real MG or better still a 106mm RR that's pre-aimed down the only track the vehicle can take. The resultant explosion and fire from the tanker would be minimized by the barriers, and the fact that you would have planned the layout in the first place for this. Shooting the fuel tanks won't work. Diesel won't burn from that. You'll just have a leaking fuel tank. Shooting the radiator is pointless as the truck will run for quite a long time without a radiator. Diesel engines run cooler than gas ones (ever notice the radiator covers on truck in the winter?) and it will not overheat fast enough. Shooting out tires may or may not work. Again flat tires on their own won't stop a truck, the terrorist will just drive them on flats until he blows himself up. The idea of shooting one of the steer tires out is the best for tire action, and having a steer tire blow is a pretty exciting event on it's own, but it doesn't assure stopping. If blowing a steer tire would cause a truck to crash, there'd be alot more dead truckers and "four wheelers(car drivers)" around. The most vunderable part of a truck is the fleshy part. The front glass tends to be thicker than car glass because of it's surface area and the need to be as strong. I've had a brick thrown from an overpass hit my front windshield and bounce off. It cracked it, but it didn't come close to coming through. I'd use a semi-auto with a big magazine in .308. HK, FAL, M-1A, whatever. I would shoot at the driver through the door panel. It's not any heavier than a door panel on a car or pick-up truck. I would not want to shoot at the truck head on. It's pulling all that gas behind it and you don't need bullets penetrating all the way through a cab, or missing the cab, and into the tank. Side shots would at least prevent that danger. There's a good chance that if you do shoot the driver and he looses control, it will roll. Tankers are especially susceptible to rolling because of the liquid sloshing around in the tank. So the short answer is: big gun with lotsa bullets that fires fast. Aim for the driver through the driver's door panel. Ross
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 7:32:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 8:10:39 PM EDT
Wait... is this still AR15.com, or did I accidentally click on a link to Assaultweb??? [peep]
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 8:38:37 PM EDT
I have worked in a truck shop off and on for almost 12 years. From my observations, there is nothing that will stop an 18-wheeler faster than a trailer-park girl in a short dress standing next to the Interstate. The emergency brakes on a rig with air brakes is spring applied and air released. Almost all tractor trailer trucks have air brakes. Once air pressure is reduced to somewhere below 60 psi the emergency brakes apply. A bullet hole in an air tank would be too large for the compressor to keep up with. The brakes would apply. I don't know if this would completely stop a truck, but he will be the bottom gears to keep going. I have noticed that in my home town the fuel delivery trucks have air starters. Trucks with air starters have very large air tank located where the passenger seat usually is. Unfortunately trucks without air starters have smaller tanks located along the frame. A bullet hole in an oil filter will cause engine failure in a couple of minutes. Punctured external oil lines will produce the same results. Fuel filters and fuel supply lines are another area that a bullet would cause immediate engine shutdown. Spraying the engine compartment with bullets would have a good chance of bringing a truck to a stop.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 8:53:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By marvl: And I'm sorry if this sounds like racial profiling, but, duh, so far only Middle Easterners hasve committed terrorist acts in this country (ignoring Tim McVeigh, or course).
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Whatever happened to the days of "if you see a suspicious vehicle, call the cops?" You clearly fit the rank of mall ninja. Lets see, I bet you'll be dressed in body armor and BDU when you approach the suspicious truck? You want to be a hero? Why don't you join the military or intelligence? You truly want to prevent future attacks? Try keeping your eyes and ears open. Maybe playing too much video games and watching movies corrupted your ability to think clearly. Besides, no terrorists would waste their time attacking "upscale neighborhood." They would rather target places of significance such as the White House, DoD, Statue of Liberty, etc. As for the terrorists, Unabomber was a white male. Also why are you excluding Timothy McVeigh? He's a terrorist too. Maybe you need to reevaluate your defintion of terrorists.
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