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Posted: 7/9/2002 5:45:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 5:47:05 AM EDT by Miss_Magnum]
I'm reposting this in GD because the BRC forum is not getting a lot of traffic right now. I am also including the couple comments that were made in that forum. I am looking to see who would definately be interested in doing this... I had spoken to John previously and it was due to the suggestions of other people that I even approached my instructor about this. Thanks... ------------------------------------------------ Original post: I spoke with my instructor and it looks like it would work for him to give a two hour self defense course each day at the BRC. This is NOT final until I get the concrete numbers and proposal to John but how realistic do you think it would be to get 20-25 people per class at $30-35 a person? This is not for profit... I just need to make sure it's not a money drain for anyone involved. What do y'all think? ------------------------------------------------ AntiUSSA: Not very, especially since the BRC is supposed to be dedicated to FIREARMS... One thing that we do not want is to have a bunch of "classes" that require attendees to get nickle and dimed to death. We will have a few select courses, but they will be free to attendees! ------------------------------------------------ fizassist: I definitely agree with this. I'm really looking forward to going next year, but I'd rather not spend extra money on stuff that doesn't involve firearms for that event. $30/class is not unreasonable compensation for a qualified martial arts instructor, and I always like seeing different styles, but I would rather not spend the time at the BRC. Now an armorer's class; oh yeah! Or even better, a "how not to suck so badly when you shoot" class! ------------------------------------------------ MissMagnum: Well, this is why I specifically ran a couple threads early on to see if there was interest.. and a lot of people liked the idea. In fact, it was another thing that might be a draw for women and children. Understandably it's not directly related to firearms but I think we're all interested in developing our firearms skills in order to ultimately defend ourselves. And $35 for a TWO HOUR seminar is a fantastic deal.... you can run through $35 in less than a minute on a machine gun rental... and this would be a skill that you could take with you. ------------------------------------------------
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 4:33:04 PM EDT
BTT... if there's no interest, I don't want to waste my time, my instructor's time or your time. I'll admit I'm disappointed, though, because this was the result of other people expressing interest....
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 4:49:06 PM EDT
Ummm, an Armorer's Course would be cool... [BD] Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 5:18:54 PM EDT
I would definately be interested. I guess I am the only one. I wouldn't mind paying $30 - $35 dollars for a good Self-Defense class.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 5:42:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 5:44:17 PM EDT by FMJunkie]
OK, I know that this is somewhat personal so please keep in mind that I am only trying to offer a positively constructive opinion here... I think this would be best if it were a 'come as you are' affair. In other words, no (pre) registration, much lower fee, just show up XX o'clock on any day if you want to participate. Regarding the fee, its not that I feel its high or unreasonable under normal circumstances, its just that the 'not-for-profit' aspect is critical here. Assuming 20 people a day times 4 days = 80 x 35 = $2800. That is way more than anyone's cost to come to the BRC (probably even shadowblade and the Italians...) Even at $10 you could recoup travel expenses driving from VA plus hotel with some to spare. (I spent less than that coming the same distance with a stayover along the way at a $70 Ramada and staying at the lodge for three nights) In order for this to be successful, it seems it would have to be done by a 'supporter' out of a desire to contribute with no expectation of compensation beyond a couple hundred bucks for travel and hotel. Perhaps you can convert the man? All that said, I think its great that you are trying to get this going and I hope you don't get discouraged from continuing to contribute to the effort by all this.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 5:48:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 5:49:29 PM EDT by TheKill]
I would be interested Sara. I just asked my wife, she says she would be too, as long as nobody is watching her, and as long as she gets to beat ME up! [BD] Edited to add: I agree that you should set a goal of getting rnough people to sign up to make it about $15 a person.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 7:31:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FMJunkie: Regarding the fee, its not that I feel its high or unreasonable under normal circumstances, its just that the 'not-for-profit' aspect is critical here. Assuming 20 people a day times 4 days = 80 x 35 = $2800. That is way more than anyone's cost to come to the BRC (probably even shadowblade and the Italians...)
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My instructor would have to leave his business and hire someone else to take over to go to the BRC and teach. His fee is $2,000 for the four days plus airfare and hotel. Add to that whatever cost it would be to rent mats and an extra tent (for too hot or inclement weather) and there's your $2,800.
Even at $10 you could recoup travel expenses driving from VA plus hotel with some to spare.
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Dude! I drove the 15+ hours from Illinois back to Virginia... I wouldn't subject ANYONE to that! [:D]
In order for this to be successful, it seems it would have to be done by a 'supporter' out of a desire to contribute with no expectation of compensation beyond a couple hundred bucks for travel and hotel.
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Ahem... noone with the experience and expertise on this board has volunteered to take this over and teach every single day for consistency. It's just not going to happen.
Perhaps you can convert the man?
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I would never ask someone to lose money, drive a grueling 15+ hours each way and then work at the BRC instead of being able to simply enjoy themselves.
All that said, I think its great that you are trying to get this going and I hope you don't get discouraged from continuing to contribute to the effort by all this.
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At this point, discouraged is all I am about this. I've put it together the most reasonable way possible for consistency, etc and I've received a lot of criticism. Constructive criticism I can take... but it's the "I don't like how you did this, change it so it's more like this" shit that ticks me off. If someone else thought that they could get someone to volunteer to do this, why haven't they stepped forward? As it is, I am in the middle of job hunting and working on my farm to sell it and move halfway across the country. I need this like I need another horse! [whacko]
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 7:47:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Miss_Magnum: MissMagnum: Well, this is why I specifically ran a couple threads early on to see if there was interest.. and a lot of people liked the idea. In fact, it was another thing that might be a draw for women and children. Understandably it's not directly related to firearms but I think we're all interested in developing our firearms skills in order to ultimately defend ourselves. And $35 for a TWO HOUR seminar is a fantastic deal.... you can run through $35 in less than a minute on a machine gun rental... and this would be a skill that you could take with you. ------------------------------------------------
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I agree; it is a good deal. And when you first brought the idea up, I was tempted. I guess my perspective is different because I get 4 hours in-class martial arts training a week; I just wouldn't want to devote time or money to a self defense seminar at the BRC. I'm definitely not saying it's a bad idea. I'm sure some people would be interested. I'd just be more in to an armorers' class or something gun-related.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 7:59:28 PM EDT
Forgive my arrogance. As a 25 yr Martial Artist, 5th degree Professional, and 15 year Instructor, I feel this is not the environment for what you propose. This is the Black RIFLE Convention- not the Black Martial Arts Convention. As I stated in a previous thread, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. As I witnessed at the First BRC, this was demonstrated by inebreiated "trainees" during a sanctioned publicly attended event. I was personally offended by the juvenile shennanigans, and would not like to see a repeat during BRCII. True and dedicated Martial Artists have no interest in public displays of their "skills". I feel your genuine interests would be better served by your continued support of your art in the Privacy of your Dojo. While a FREE "demo" may be interesting to some, no real benefit will be obtained by any training obtained in days. Period.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 8:21:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Grock: Forgive my arrogance. As a 25 yr Martial Artist, 5th degree Professional, and 15 year Instructor, I feel this is not the environment for what you propose. This is the Black RIFLE Convention- not the Black Martial Arts Convention. As I stated in a previous thread, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. As I witnessed at the First BRC, this was demonstrated by inebreiated "trainees" during a sanctioned publicly attended event. I was personally offended by the juvenile shennanigans, and would not like to see a repeat during BRCII. True and dedicated Martial Artists have no interest in public displays of their "skills". I feel your genuine interests would be better served by your continued support of your art in the Privacy of your Dojo. While a FREE "demo" may be interesting to some, no real benefit will be obtained by any training obtained in days. Period.
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i understand your point completely that two hours is just enough to make someone "armed" and dangerous with martial arts knowledge. but i think you're failing to make the distinction between self defense and true martial arts. i think 2 hours is plenty to introduce to people the vulnerable spots on the human body and how to attack them to get away. we're not talking about putting the guy down and out so that he needs a medic when the police arrive. self defense is as simple as knowing how to get away from your attacker. i think MM's idea is great if she means learning how to escape your attacker self defense. however, if she's referring to how to properly throw a punch or a kick or a double-back handspring hi-YA! stiff handed swipe to the neck, i think it's probably a little too much information to try and teach in such a short period of time (especially given that those actions need practice to perfect). as much as that kind of stuff is intriguing and i wouldn't mind paying for continued education, it's not something that i think would go over very well for a one-time event.
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 1:07:40 AM EDT
Does the price including getting to roll around with you on the ground. Hell, I'll even let you choke me out. Sorry...had to say it!
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 3:40:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2002 3:43:17 AM EDT by Miss_Magnum]
Originally Posted By Grock: Forgive my arrogance.
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Why even bother with apologizing if arrogant is what you intend to be?
As I witnessed at the First BRC, this was demonstrated by inebreiated "trainees" during a sanctioned publicly attended event. I was personally offended by the juvenile shennanigans, and would not like to see a repeat during BRCII. True and dedicated Martial Artists have no interest in public displays of their "skills".
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the one trying to give a "public" display of your martial arts ability to the hostess at The Ice House? As for the seminar, it was designed with self-defense in mind... not "shenanigans." If you were offended by a few of us having a good time, I'd like to know why that was so wrong? I'll be sure to stifle my enthusiasm and playful nature in your presence. As it stands, I'll let my instructor know that all was for naught. I think it's a shame but what's one person's opinion unless it is used to discredit another person, eh? [;)]
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 4:00:55 AM EDT
As I stated in the original post, I'm interested in doing it, and you can count me in. I have no problem with the "pay as you go" portion either. As pointed out, you burn that up in a couple seconds on the range renting full-auto, so the objection that this is "nickle and dime" isn't too valid. We were getting "quartered and dollared" at the range. While that may have been more transparent, since it was gun related, the powered parachute wasn't exactly low cost either, and I can't see any link with firearms to that either. Now I rode the thing because I wanted to, and I payed the price because I thought it fair. I have no problem with that, and I doubt that anyone else has a problem with paying for things they wish to experience as long as it's fair. This price seems fair to me, and I have no problem with paying for the lesson. If I did, I just wouldn't try it. As I also said in the original post, I'm not interested in turning into the next Jet Li over a weekend (believe me, I'd do that if I could, but I just don't see it happening). I would like to try it out and find out if it's something I'd like to do. Same as I would try out a gun at the range to see if it's something I'd like to buy. The idea seems more of just a simple exposure to it for those interested, and some really basic skills. Plus it would be fun. Same as trying to get a newbie, left-wing, vegitarian to go shooting. You aren't going to just tell her that she needs to practice "snapping in" for eight straight hours or she just isn't worthy to shoot a gun. No, you start with simple, short, safe, and fun exposure to shooting and see if she even likes it. Miss_Magnum's idea meets those same requirements. Yeah, we won't be "ring ready" but you aren't going to be Annie Oaklely after two hours of shooting a gun either. MM- The idea's certainly valid. I think the major hurdle is the number of attendees. There may not be enough to meet the 20-25 people per day to reach the "break even point" for your instructor, judging from the responses. Maybe you can post a poll that someone could thumbtack, or something, and get an idea if the numbers will be there. Then you can figure out from there if it's worth your time. If there isn't the numbers to support the training, then you certainly have other things to do. I'd like to see it, and you can put me down as a "Yes". Ross
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 4:15:55 AM EDT
Sounds like a good idea to me. There's times when you won't be able to carry. Its prolly a good idea to be prepared for those as well. Somebody round here is thinking. [:D]
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 4:27:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 4:32:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Grock: As I witnessed at the First BRC, this was demonstrated by inebreiated "trainees" during a sanctioned publicly attended event. [red]Sactioned by who? What the hell? Just playing around and anyway, the loud witnesses drew all the attention. Who cares?[/red] I was personally offended by the juvenile shennanigans, [red]Sorry, guess I'll try not to have fun next time[/red] and would not like to see a repeat during BRCII. [red]Those drinks do tend to make people act funny huh?[/red] True and dedicated Martial Artists have no interest in public displays of their "skills".[red]OPINION[/red] I feel your genuine interests would be better served by your continued support of your art in the Privacy of your Dojo. While a FREE "demo" may be interesting to some, no real benefit will be obtained by any training obtained in days. Period.[red]OPINION[/red]
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Link Posted: 7/10/2002 4:38:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr: This is what John and Tim go through every year.
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This is what I don't understand... I've talked to John about this but never made it a secret that I was looking into this. Heck, there are two other posts on this exact topic. But I am curious..... Tim, If you are so dead-set against this idea, then why didn't you come forward BEFORE I started getting the numbers, etc???
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 5:45:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2002 5:53:26 AM EDT by antiUSSA]
Tim, If you are so dead-set against this idea, then why didn't you come forward BEFORE I started getting the numbers, etc???
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Quote me as to where I ever said [b]anything[/b] about being dead set against this... Please! Let me point out a number of issues: [b]1)[/b] I only found out about this, [u]after[/u] you posted the numbers. [b]2)[/b] We have a number of local instructors that would not have to travel from Virginia and back... and I happen to know a couple well enough to have them [u]volunteer[/u] their services if necessary. [b]3)[/b] Anything that is non-firearms related and involves a "group" of individuals to be detracted from the firearms related events that are primarily paid for by the sponsors, is taking business away from the sponsors. [b]4)[/b] I was [u]not[/u] involved in any of the discussions that you and John have had, and actually only spoke with him about it for the very first time yesterday, since he and I have both been very busy and traveling in seperate directions since the BRC. Being the primary organizer of the BRC, I probably should have been clued in by you personally. I could go on and on, but what's the point..? I expressed an observation, from the "organizers" standpoint, and now I have been called to task for it. To be quite honest with you, I do not like the idea at all, for the reasons that Grock mentioned, but then again, I'm only one person!
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 6:20:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2002 6:22:24 AM EDT by Miss_Magnum]
Originally Posted By antiUSSA: Quote me as to where I ever said [b]anything[/b] about being dead set against this... Please!
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You said you didn't like the idea... and reiterated it again in this post. I took that to mean you were against it.
[b]1)[/b] I only found out about this, [u]after[/u] you posted the numbers.
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There are two other threads concerning this topic in the BRC forum. I guess I incorrectly assumed that you would keep abreast of what was going on in that forum considering your involvement in the event.
[b]3)[/b] Anything that is non-firearms related and involves a "group" of individuals to be detracted from the firearms related events that are primarily paid for by the sponsors, is taking business away from the sponsors.
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So that would put the flying contraption and trail riding and ATV rental in the same category??
[b]4)[/b] I was [u]not[/u] involved in any of the discussions that you and John have had, and actually only spoke with him about it for the very first time yesterday, since he and I have both been very busy and traveling in seperate directions since the BRC. Being the primary organizer of the BRC, I probably should have been clued in by you personally.
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I spoke to John because I thought he was as involved as you are in the planning. If that was incorrect, my apologies.
To be quite honest with you, I do not like the idea at all, for the reasons that Grock mentioned, but then again, I'm only one person!
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Again, it was for self-defense not "how to become a mall ninja." But consider the point moot. It's a no-go. Sorry to anyone who was truly interested...
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 7:07:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2002 7:08:05 AM EDT by IAJack]
I would like to see more activities of any kind offered at the convention. I think you were onto a good idea just marketed wrong? How about a self defense seminar, where the emphisis isn't on physical, but things like situational awareness etc? Otherwise some advanced and intermediate pistol and rifle courses would be good. Like we had planned but the gentelman who was to have taught them got called to action.
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 7:10:25 AM EDT
MM, just what exactly would this self defense class invovle? i think Grock is absolutely right in that a martial arts-based class is a little too advanced for basics self defense. on the otherhand, as i've said before, i think that there's plenty of need for the very basics of learning how to pinch, poke, squeeze, scratch, scream, yell, and otherwise try to get away from an attacker. i don't think the former is something that can be given proper attention in two hours. the latter, however, is another story. which side of the self defense aisle did you have in mind?
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 8:12:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2002 8:17:56 AM EDT by antiUSSA]
You said you didn't like the idea... and reiterated it again in this post. I took that to mean you were against it.
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I didn't make a 2nd comment until my first post in this thread... this morning.
There are two other threads concerning this topic in the BRC forum. I guess I incorrectly assumed that you would keep abreast of what was going on in that forum considering your involvement in the event.
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Other than the thread that I did respond to, listing numbers and $$$, the following post is the only other mention made of this type of class... and what you are proposing is very different from what you initially said. If I have missed anything else, then please correct me.
Originally Posted By Miss_Magnum: I appreciate all of the suggestions... definately keep them coming. Again, I am going to keep this incredibly simple. [blue]The only demonstrations that I am considering are basic handling of firearms (relevant in that it is a shooting convention) [red]and possibly a self-defense demonstration/brief class[/red] (simply because it would be another excuse to tap Waverunner out... [:D])[/blue] I'll arrange a location so that each day of the event we will have a women's meet and greet followed by a 15-30 minute lesson on basic firearm safety, etc. I'll have information and maps on local attractions available.. it will be up to individuals to coordinate amongst themselves carpools, etc. I will not be playing tour guide. After the firearms lesson, I think it would be the perfect time for those interested to head to the range to try out newly acquired skills! [:D]
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[center]------------------------------------------------[/center]
So that would put the flying contraption and trail riding and ATV rental in the same category??
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These are [u]not[/u] group clases or events, but family style activities... that are the backbone of the BRC.
Again, it was for self-defense not "how to become a mall ninja." But consider the point moot. It's a no-go. Sorry to anyone who was truly interested...
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There is absolutely no reason to bail out on the ideas... they just need to be dealt with privately ([i]with all involved[/i]), before being posted on the boards!
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 3:40:55 PM EDT
The other thread was in GD, my mistake. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=124063[/url] I wanted to iron out all the details and make sure it would pay for itself before "officially" delivering the proposal. I already let my instructor know today that it's not going to happen.
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 3:44:44 PM EDT
Oh.. and last thing.. this was an all ages class.. truly a family affair. What better way to spend quality time than ensuring that your child can reasonably protect themselves? And I don't understand why y'all are so hung up on the fact that he's a martial arts instructor. Did y'all watch too many Jackie Chan flicks? Martial arts is entirely about SELF DEFENSE. Do what works... not what is flashy. How do you get out of a choke hold? What do you do if someone grabs you from the behind on the shoulder? What do you do if someone gets you in a bear hug? How can you defend yourself if your attacker is sitting on top of you (especially good for women fighting off rapists)?
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