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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:13:24 AM EDT
[#1]
I'm deeply hurt by the name-calling. Really. At any rate, I am outraged if this story has gone down as described. I admitted early on that I wasn't as up-to-speed as everyone else seems to be. I didn't feel like I had to be as this particular story was not my point. I must have the balls to admit that I made a mistake by injecting my thoughts into the wrong thread. I have, apparently, misinterpreted a lot of comments as stridently anti-FBI and more pointedly, revenge-minded. I can't give you exact quotes stating directly the impression I have. In my defense, though, much of what folks say here seems to be between the lines. I stand by my assertion that not all agents are bad. I guess I am the only one who has been around those few who are "good guys". For any other erroneous conclusions I have drawn I apologize. For what it's worth, the name-calling is really pretty silly.
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:17:10 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: I'm deeply hurt by the name-calling. Really. At any rate, I am outraged if this story has gone down as described. I admitted early on that I wasn't as up-to-speed as everyone else seems to be. I didn't feel like I had to be as this particular story was not my point. I must have the balls to admit that I made a mistake by injecting my thoughts into the wrong thread. I have, apparently, misinterpreted a lot of comments as stridently anti-FBI and more pointedly, revenge-minded. I can't give you exact quotes stating directly the impression I have. In my defense, though, much of what folks say here seems to be between the lines. I stand by my assertion that not all agents are bad. I guess I am the only one who has been around those few who are "good guys". For any other erroneous conclusions I have drawn I apologize. For what it's worth, the name-calling is really pretty silly. Aggie... They ain't "all bad"...but the bad ones and their [culpable] supervisors are getting away with homocide. THAT scares the hell out of a lot of ordinary folks. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:18:17 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: -The agents, then riding in an FBI car, approached the girl's car from the left rear side, while both vehicles were in motion. -The FBI agents apparently tried to identify themselves and ordered the victim's car to pull over. The victim and his fiance stated they saw the agents yelling at them and believed them to criminals, possibly carjackers. Unknown whether or not the victims' car windows were up or down. FBI in an unmarked sedan perhaps tinted windows, waving around a badge/ID at unknown speeds, screaming and yelling at the other driver to pull over. Oh sure, I'd pull over right away Mr. Man, yess'um, right away sir. Hmmm, how about I flip you off and keep driving. Oh wait, you'll get me on 'evading law enforcement' too. Yeah, ya better just rip a few rounds outta that carbine to let me know you're really feds. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:20:51 AM EDT
[#4]
AA, just so you know--we are NOT anti-LEO. Most of us [b]are[/b] virulently anti JBT. This would seem to fit the definition of JBT stuff. I can only speak for myself, but I am VERY LEO-friendly. [;)]
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:21:35 AM EDT
[#5]
Here's your connetion between this, ruby ridge, and waco:
In all three cases, the FBI as an organization has done everything in it's power to keep the guilty parties from facing the consequences of their behavior. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:23:49 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Here's your connetion between this, ruby ridge, and waco: In all three cases, the FBI as an organization has done everything in it's power to keep the guilty parties from facing the consequences of their behavior. Um . . . YUP!! |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:27:54 AM EDT
[#7]
Here's your connetion between this, ruby ridge, and waco: In all three cases, the FBI as an organization has done everything in it's power to keep the guilty parties from facing the consequences of their behavior. Agreed. But it seems to me that most of that spin and sweeping is being done by the guys at the top, not the field agents. Call it faith (or stupidity) but I still believe most field agents try to get it right. Sure, there are scrots among them, even I can't argue with that. It doesn't make them all bad, just their image. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:33:49 AM EDT
[#8]
JohninAustin - Someone please give me a DIRECT link between this shooting and Waco/Ruby ridge.
Heres the only link I'm trying to make - two lives ruined as a result of trigger happy jerkoffs. Sh$t gets explained away, as "the sun was in my eyes, I THOUGHT he may have been reaching for a gun" amongst others. For all the specialized 'training' they receive, they SHOULD be held accountable for those "oops I'm sorry but youre going to have to eat through a straw for the rest of your life" I'm not nor have I ever been anti-LEO - my family has been involved in law enforcement for nearly 50 years. Take for example the ATF - branch of the Treasury Department - armed tax collectors in my eyes. Their reason for being at Waco -because they thought Koresh had unregistered - read "UNTAXED" full auto weapons in the compound. Better suit up and kick in some doors because he didnt get his tax stamp. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:36:01 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Here's your connetion between this, ruby ridge, and waco: In all three cases, the FBI as an organization has done everything in it's power to keep the guilty parties from facing the consequences of their behavior. Agreed. But it seems to me that most of that spin and sweeping is being done by the guys at the top, not the field agents. Call it faith (or stupidity) but I still believe most field agents try to get it right. Sure, there are scrots among them, even I can't argue with that. It doesn't make them all bad, just their image. I don't buy that. How many agents were involved in Waco? If there were any good apples in that bunch don't you think a bit of guts spilling to the media would have been done? Same thing with Ruby Ridge, look at the number of agents running around at those events and compare that to the number that actually admit to doing something wrong. It's a big good ol boys club where looking out for each other outweighs their duty to the people they are supposed to be serving. It's getting out of hand. It sure will be interesting when they pull some of this crap on a man like Jrzy. Someday, they will face some consequences. Some would say that Oklahoma City was an attempt at revenge. I don't really buy that, but that is one example of the sort of thing that can happen when they push people the wrong way. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:42:06 AM EDT
[#10]
ArmedAggie,
You were making ludicrous claims of everyone on this board being a nut job, and wanting to kill federal agents. You are not going to make friends here because that is (for the most part) absolutely false. And if someone starts making false statements about me and my boardmates, I am going to start getting vicious. Don't read between the lines, as you will become as paranoid as the tinfoil hat people. If people think you are acting like a Eunuch, they will let you know. They will not pull any punches. If you are deeply hurt by what's said on an Internet board, you'd better stay off the internet. As for the "they may pick on the wrong person in the future", I interpreted this to mean that sooner or later they are going to shoot the wrong person with lots of connections and a big mouth and huge lawyer and get their asses handed to them. Not all agents are bad, but the propensity for Federal Agencies to cover things up can be proven over and over again. If someone screws up, they should pay for it...Fed or not. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:42:20 AM EDT
[#11]
Johnisautin, ok this is the last time I'm going to try and discuss this with you because if you don't get by now you never will, After WACO Janet Reno the boss of the federal agencies said it was all her fault because she heard the children were being mistreated, so they went in, although she could not state where she heard this from or even prove she heard it, it was just her statement . This is there excuse for what happened. At Ruby Ridge the ATF agents asked Weaver to get them a sawed off shotgun,he did, but really how hard is is to saw a barrel off of a shotgun, they then tried to coerce him into doing things he felt he did not want to do. So they go off to the middle of no where Ruby Ridge and kill the guys dog, his son,and his wife NOW PAY ATTENTION THIS IS THE DIRECT LINK THE FEDERAL AGENCIES WERE OUT OF LINE THEN AND NOTHING EVER WAS DONE TO THOSE IN CHARGE, DO YOU GET IT.AS IN THIS CASE AGAIN A FEDERAL AGENCY HURT SOMEONE AND NOTHING IS GOING TO BE DONE TO THOSE IN CHARGE OR WHO DID IT. And these are only the high profile cases that the media picked up on how many don't make it past the local papers, you'd be a fool to think few.Now if you don't get it, you never will. Good day
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:51:16 AM EDT
[#12]
Wow...go to lunch, look what happens...
Thank you for answering my questions. I don't believe anyone said that ALL or even MOST LEOs are JBTs. What I do believe you're seeing is a lot of frustration on the part of ordinary good citizens because by and large, we're held to a higher standard when we use deadly force than a police officer. Before you start screaming about shooting review boards, internal investigations, and such, remember that that's all ADMINISTRATIVE bullshit. You might get a letter of reprimand or a suspension (with or without pay), but how often would a police review board recommend that an officer face CRIMINAL charges? Not too often, I'd wager...and only then when the violation is so blatant, even by police standards of conduct, that it can't be swept under the rug. As a civilian, a defensive shooting is going to cost you $10,000 or so even if you never go to court...plus the very real possibility of going to jail and getting your ass sued off. Special Agent Braga is going to walk...just like Lon Horiuchi. And it pisses some of us off...if you don't like that, try standing up for what's right instead of standing up for your brothers in blue no matter what they do. QS |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:52:10 AM EDT
[#13]
DJK,
Actually, my comment about being really hurt by the names was sarcasm. I think name-calling is a bit childish but I guess some folks get frustrated and that's about the best you can manage over the internet. Actually, I'm glad because otherwise a couple of folks would probably have their hands around my throat right now. As for the reading between the lines bit, I can tell people speak their mind. What I meant by that was you can't always speak "exactly" what's on your mind on a moderated forum. I sensed (erroneously, it seems) that some folks comments were toned down a bit to keep from being edited or removed. Just an impression and like I said, I could be wrong. At the same time a lot of people haven't understood the point I tried to make. That's fine, I understand the limitations of the venue. It's hard to read the non-verbal aspects of someone's view when all you get is words on a screen. Once again, for those who missed it, I seem to have made some mistakes. I admit, I apologize. That's about the best I can do because I don't have enough beer for everyone. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:57:41 AM EDT
[#14]
QuietShootr,
I hear you. I think the same is true on my side. I get frustrated every time something like this happens because the good LEO's don't get much credit here. A lot is said about the scrots, the ones everyone gets frustrated about, but the good guys seem to get thrown in with them. Guilt by association, or so it seemed. It has been pointed out that I drew that conclusion by mistake. Fine, lesson learned. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:57:46 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Here's your connetion between this, ruby ridge, and waco: In all three cases, the FBI as an organization has done everything in it's power to keep the guilty parties from facing the consequences of their behavior. Agreed. But it seems to me that most of that spin and sweeping is being done by the guys at the top, not the field agents. Call it faith (or stupidity) but I still believe most field agents try to get it right. Sure, there are scrots among them, even I can't argue with that. It doesn't make them all bad, just their image. Aggie, You just said a mouthful there! It is exactly as you state: The "guys at the TOP" are setting the tone. They define the work ethic, the ROE [and sometimes the unwritten ROE], and the "we vs. THEM" attitude. The "guys at the top" are the ones responsible for not only the day-to-day operation of the entire bureau, but for the actions of their agents. When those agents actions come into question, those, "guys at the top" circle the wagons and cover up...both the agents actions and their phony baloney asses. The FBI is ultimately responsible to the American People for it's actions...just as is any other federal organization that survives on obligated funds. WE are the ones that will ultimately decide on the future of these organizations. If the Feebs keep screwing up...and whacking innocent civilians, without sanction, they will go away or be restructured. They live and die by their "image". Hoover understood that some seventy years ago very well. The FBI lives by the motto, Fidelity, Bravery, Integrity. I think far too many of the agents and their superiors have lost sight of those noble goals. They must serve the greater good...and shooting innocent kids is not serving the greater good. Until they convince me differently, I believe that this agent blew it...and the bureau is covering up. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:58:56 AM EDT
[#16]
HK, the FBI agent on the street does not receive any specialized training.
He goes through a program very similar to Basic police instruction, with an occasional update. I know current FBI agents who have not shot in 6 years other than deer season. Of course, I can say the same thing about a lot of gun owners. Anti, Incorrect in the way that that is not the FBI's intent. It does the same as any other large business or organization. No blame must fall on the Dept. Whether the agent is at fault or not is not considered. Just like every other large organization. If there was a way to distance themselves and throw every use-of-force case to the wolves (justified or not) they would. That's why, as an officer, you are insane not to have a lawyer on retainer. Your best interests and the interests of the department are not the same. As an aside, Shooters are not exactly saints. When the gun public at large starts to clean up it's own backyard with the same vehemence it's demanding of the police, Maybe we'll come to an consensus. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 10:01:52 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: QuietShootr, I hear you. I think the same is true on my side. I get frustrated every time something like this happens because the good LEO's don't get much credit here. A lot is said about the scrots, the ones everyone gets frustrated about, but the good guys seem to get thrown in with them. Guilt by association, or so it seemed. It has been pointed out that I drew that conclusion by mistake. Fine, lesson learned. We have a bunch of good LEOs here. Just like in every other walk of life, the jerkoffs provide most of the fodder for conversation, however. Good cops will be respected by respectable people. When they begin to act like Stalin's NKVD, they will not. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 10:06:10 AM EDT
[#18]
I would like to clarify something,I am not a murderer,i have never killed anyone and i do not intend to kill anyone,now i am going along my way taking care of my family and if some stupid JBT type was to actually kill a memeber of my family without just cause i would do what ever it took to bring justice to my family,if that meant taking up arms aginst the person who did it ,Yes i would.
I think i would try and let the courts find my family justice but if they failed i would not hesitate to do the the best i could to avenge the loss of family and punish those responsible. Think i'm a bragart,think again,my family means evrything to me and if you hurt them ,God would not be able to protect you. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 10:09:12 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: As an aside, Shooters are not exactly saints. When the gun public at large starts to clean up it's own backyard with the same vehemence it's demanding of the police, Maybe we'll come to an consensus. "The gun public at large" are not paid public employees under one organization that is structured with a chain of command. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 10:17:25 AM EDT
[#20]
OMG.
I'm in complete agreement with Imbrog|io. I'm going to go lie down. QS |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 10:19:59 AM EDT
[#21]
Johninaustin - okay, thanks for the clarification regarding training of field agents. I know that several officers dont have any further interest or training with firearms other than their duty weapon. My comment was moreso directed at Horiuchi's actions - claimed trained FBI 'sniper' who couldnt cleary identify a target at 200 yards. However in light of that fact, still giving a field agent an M16 during a bank robbery pursuit leaves a lot of questions regarding his 'qualifications' - and that therein lies the problem we're all complaining about. NO ONE will question his training within the organization. And the chances of any exterior challange to his training or judgement is next to nothing.
Don't fret Aggie, were all a good sort here. And its often true, only the 'bad' instances of police activity are highlighted. With all the day to day crap they have to put up with, they certainly arent praised enough. Its unfortunate that Sept. 11 only then made people aware of the sacrafices LEOs make every day. What ticks us off most though is the they can do no wrong mentality. I know its not your position, but we all believe that those within those organizations arent going to come out and say they have 'no excuse' for what happened. There always has been, and I fear they have the power to explain away instances of bad judgement. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 10:27:20 AM EDT
[#22]
$10,000! I wish! Quiet, My on-duty shooting, (quite justified I might add) cost me personally $62,000 in 1991.
This for a civil suit from the "Victims" family that was ruled unfounded. That works out to a little over $3,000 a day for the trial and various court appearances. The city does not pick up the officer's legal tab for the civil suit. My own medical bills not covered by insurance totaled a little over 6,000$. All told, it was very cheap. Then there was the non-monetary cost. Having to send my daughter to another state for a year because of the threats. Reporters ambushing you in the bathroom 6 months after the shooting, a month of psych reviews to find out if you still have a career. the facial scarring that causes people to whisper about you in stores. A host of other things. I was no billed by the Grand Jury. Anyone that thinks they can go into a shooting, justified or otherwise, police or CHL holder, and have so much as coffee money left over is living in a dream world. However, this has strayed a little. I'll say it one last time and then go to work. I refuse to condemn the many for the actions of a few. It is no different than what happens to gun owners. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 10:31:06 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: $10,000! I wish! Quiet, My on-duty shooting, (quite justified I might add) cost me personally $62,000 in 1991. This for a civil suit from the "Victims" family that was ruled unfounded. That works out to a little over $3,000 a day for the trial and various court appearances. The city does not pick up the officer's legal tab for the civil suit. My own medical bills not covered by insurance totaled a little over 6,000$. All told, it was very cheap. Bad scene. There should be some insurance available for this kind of thing. I'd pay $100 a month to know that my ass was covered, monetarily speaking. QS |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 11:03:44 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: $10,000! I wish! Quiet, My on-duty shooting, (quite justified I might add) cost me personally $62,000 in 1991. It sounds as though you need to get a job with the FBI. I'm not being a smartass. There is no way in hell you should have personal expense for doing your job. Period. If it was a "good" shooting, and yes, there is such a thing, then you should be backed up by those who employ you. Period. Yet another reason I have such admiration for LEO's and the job you do, that I wouldn't do for any amount of money. Now I have one more reason for feeling that way. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 11:22:43 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: I'll say it one last time and then go to work. I refuse to condemn the many for the actions of a few. It is no different than what happens to gun owners. Maybe I missed it somewhere in all the invective, but I didn't catch you even condemning the actions of the few. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 11:25:31 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Quoted: I'll say it one last time and then go to work. I refuse to condemn the many for the actions of a few. It is no different than what happens to gun owners. Maybe I missed it somewhere in all the invective, but I didn't catch you even condemning the actions of the few. Perhaps he's waiting to hear "the other side of the story" or for "all the facts to come out." Neither of which is going to be forthcoming any time soon. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 11:39:18 AM EDT
[#27]
Why does this guy sound like our old friend GlockCop??
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Posted: 7/8/2002 11:55:23 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Why does this guy sound like our old friend GlockCop?? Funny I was thinking exactly the same thing!?!?![>:/] |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 11:58:26 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: The F.B.I. fumbling bunch of idiots. Enough said. Poor guy,dead, wrong place wrong time He died? He was still alive and recovering in the hospital, when did he die? |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 12:10:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Quoted: The F.B.I. fumbling bunch of idiots. Enough said. Poor guy,dead, wrong place wrong time He died? He was still alive and recovering in the hospital, when did he die? He is still alive, but has years of surgery to go through. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:52:28 PM EDT
[#31]
Hmm, looking back, apparently I DIDN't condemn it. That's what happens when I follow threads on the same subject on several boards at the same time. Silly me, I thought it would be obvious.
Yes, I condemn shooting innocent people. I still refuse to slam folks that had absolutely nothing to do with the incident in question, simply because they work in the same career field. Also, for the record, I consider being identified as Glockcop an insult. (Yes, I've been around here that long) |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 10:05:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Hmm, looking back, apparently I DIDN't condemn it. That's what happens when I follow threads on the same subject on several boards at the same time. Silly me, I thought it would be obvious. Why would it be obvious if you never said it, saving all your outrage for those who complain about institutionalized thuggery? Yes, I condemn shooting innocent people. Are you sure you want to state your position in such strong terms? Imagine you [b]didn't[/b] have a badge, and that this kind of treatment was something you had to worry about too. Then what would you think about it? I still refuse to slam folks that had absolutely nothing to do with the incident in question, simply because they work in the same career field. You still seem to have a lot more outrage worked up over people's opinions than over an innocent man being shot in the face and the fed who did it going scot free, even though he shot another unarmed man once before in his career. Sorry, John, I know I should just let this go, but it's got a hook in me. |
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Posted: 7/10/2002 9:01:13 AM EDT
[#33]
Jarhead, by obvious, I mean something that is so self evident that it does not need to be mentioned.
Badge or no badge, My opinion on shooting innocent people would not change. As for where I'm at at this point, I'm simply trying to follow the thread, which like all these threads, wanders around like a drunken man on a blind horse in a thunderstorm. People are blaming all officers essentially for the actions of one guy. I will not do this. |
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Posted: 7/10/2002 9:10:19 AM EDT
[#34]
This horse is dead, John. I'm about to go jump into the Rush Limbaugh thread. It should be fun. Maybe I'll see you over there.
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Posted: 7/10/2002 9:19:26 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Here's your connetion between this, ruby ridge, and waco: In all three cases, the FBI as an organization has done everything in it's power to keep the guilty parties from facing the consequences of their behavior. Agreed. But it seems to me that most of that spin and sweeping is being done by the guys at the top, not the field agents. Call it faith (or stupidity) but I still believe most field agents try to get it right. Sure, there are scrots among them, even I can't argue with that. It doesn't make them all bad, just their image. Just at the top?? How many "field grunts" were present at all the instances mentioned who did/have NOT come forward, but actively participated in the cover ups? |
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Posted: 7/10/2002 9:25:26 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Quoted: Here's your connetion between this, ruby ridge, and waco: In all three cases, the FBI as an organization has done everything in it's power to keep the guilty parties from facing the consequences of their behavior. Agreed. But it seems to me that most of that spin and sweeping is being done by the guys at the top, not the field agents. Call it faith (or stupidity) but I still believe most field agents try to get it right. Sure, there are scrots among them, even I can't argue with that. It doesn't make them all bad, just their image. Just at the top?? How many "field grunts" were present at all the instances mentioned who did/have NOT come forward, but actively participated in the cover ups? Exactly, a lot were present, and they're all crooked commando wannabes. |
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Posted: 7/10/2002 9:40:05 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: What has been proven is that, that one agent was wrong, a man is dead.... Schultz, who was hospitalized for more than a week, began reconstructive surgeries that are not yet complete. Harkum has finished her junior year of high school. Make sure you sounds intellegent when you slam these guys! Guy's not dead. He was in the hospital for about a week. I guess Braga can't even kill a guy well I'm really glad he's alive 'cause instead of his family suing the shit outta the guy that shot 'em and the Fed, he can personally sue 'em! Of course, he'll lose. DAMN!!!! That suxs! I'll never understand why the cops and the Fed don't have to follow the same laws we do. "Do as I say, not as I do"... |
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Posted: 7/10/2002 10:07:00 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Jarhead, by obvious, I mean something that is so self evident that it does not need to be mentioned. Most of us here assume that the LEOs who post on this board are, for the most part, the good guys. We express our outrage, sometimes eloquently and sometimes bluntly and coarsely, and we expect the good guys to be outraged along with us. When those good guys are silent on the issue, or worse yet, only sound off to attack those who express their outrage bluntly and coarsely, it points out the vast gulf between those whose badges give them the power to walk away from a roadside traffic stop unscathed, and those of us without that protection. You live in a rarefied atmosphere that the rest of us don't share. Badge or no badge, My opinion on shooting innocent people would not change. Great, I'm glad to know it. Would you care to expand on that? What should happen to those who, under color of the authority of their offices as local, county, state or federal police, shoot an innocent person? The same thing --or worse?-- that happens to one of us non-badgeholders if we shoot an innocent person? People are blaming all officers essentially for the actions of one guy. I will not do this. Well, that's one way to say it, I suppose. Another might be to say that all officers are tarnished when they won't root out the felons and abusers in their midst. One is identified by the company one keeps. There are those here who will call you names and cast aspersions upon you no matter what you say, just like there are police officers who will slam a kid's head on the trunk of a car and punch him in the face while he's handcuffed. Let's attempt to marginalize that minority by keeping the discussion on point, okay? |
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Posted: 7/10/2002 10:08:38 AM EDT
[#39]
What Jarhead said.
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Posted: 7/10/2002 10:22:27 AM EDT
[#40]
posted by jrzy--
Did you guys ever wonder how they get away with this shit so many times ? ---------------------- We've lost the force. "...Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined." - Patrick Henry, June 5, 1788 The checks and balances built into our form of government are broken. The final check/balance--the PEOPLE let them get away with this. There are consequences to our inaction, of course. One need only look to the atrocities that were committed in Nazi Germany as an example of what a complete destruction of the divine principles that formed this nation will lead to. Now, to get an idea of what we're gonna get if we don't take back our government, just multiply those atrocities by several thousand orders of magnitude. Is it any wonder that when the principles that founded this nation--God/Life/Freedom are destroyed (as is our present course), that what you're left with is Evil/Death/Enslavement? "It is not only what we do, but also what we do not do, for which we are accountable." -- Moliere |
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Posted: 7/10/2002 10:26:53 AM EDT
[#41]
remember "Lonesome Dove" when they caught the murderers and their friend was riding with 'em.
They had to hang their friend because he was part of it and did nothing to stop it. The guy ended up hanging himself because he was ashamed of being associated with the lowlifes. Just seemed appropriate here. |
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