does a police officer need probable cause to run your license plate when you're driving? - Page 5

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - does a police officer need probable cause to run your license plate when you're driving? (Page 5 of 5)

Posted: 3/22/2012 10:25:00 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
An officer only has to say he felt a security risk to him or her. At that point the officer can search anywhere in your vehicle that you have easy access to from the seat you are in.

You seem ... familiar.

And the hits just keep on coming!

Posted: 3/22/2012 10:25:49 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Cops run license plates ALL OF THE TIME. It is in plain view, so they can do what they want with that info.

Within reason, state statute, and agency policy, of course.

Posted: 3/22/2012 10:29:08 AM EDT

[#3]

Sure we can. It is highly discouraged in many departments because it can lead to allegations of misuse of the LEADS system. I never asked for one that wasn't about to get pulled over or towed.

We did run one once, ICU 812, just to make sure it really was local as we suspected and then had a contest to see who could find it first. Dispatch had her name and address but we were only told it was out there somewhere.

Posted: 3/22/2012 1:20:52 PM EDT

[#4]

Delete

Posted: 3/22/2012 1:23:53 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Lets say you're just driving along and doing nothing illegal and a police officer happens to be following you. If they're bored can they run your license plate just because? Or do they need probable cause first?

We have 2 levels of running plates "Random" which just checks for status of the plate, owner's license and wny wants or warrants without listing any actual information on the owner (Such as Address) and "PC" which is what we use when we're actually stopping someone, that, depending on the particular MDT can include Owner's DL photo, but has all of the pedigree information on the registered owner.

Posted: 3/22/2012 1:32:40 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Those plate readers are eventually going to,be installed all over so .gov can track anyone's movement without a warrant.

Not good.

Simple solution: fresnel lens over the plate.

It's still completely readable and not obscured in any way - but only if you're directly behind the car.

That sort of thing is explicitly verboten here.

So are the ones designed to be opaque to a camera flash.

i think the thing to do is use some of the spray that takes away the "reflective" properties of your license plate. but here is how to do it so they don't become too suspicious.... dont just spray the whole plate, spray certain areas to make one letter or number look like another one..... for example take the bottom horizontal bar off of an "E" to make it an "F" make an "8" look like a "6"... that sort of thing.... and don't drown it in the spray, just use little light sprays to make it look like the paint or the coating is defective....

S

That seems like a great idea. Does it actually work?

Posted: 3/22/2012 1:40:10 PM EDT

[#7]

Originally Posted By ––bullseye––:
'Round these parts they can run any plate they want. The reason can be as simple as to check the status of the registration to verify it's not expired.

My local PD will run plates to see if the plate is registered to a registered driver. If the plate does not come back to a registered driver, they will pull the car over.

Posted: 3/22/2012 1:52:30 PM EDT

[#8]

I heard a story about an officer who was obsessed with some ex-girlfriend and kept running her new boyfriend's license plate through the LEIN system we have over and over (dozens and dozens of times) and of course obviously at some point someone in his department picked up on it and he lost his job.

Had some local PD officers get fired for watching porn on their department computers including one guy that apparently was downloading kiddie porn and was crimnially charged doing it.

Abuses are going to happen when you make it very easy for someone to do something especially among a community in a real high stress job. Stress makes people do some weird shit.

Posted: 3/22/2012 2:17:13 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

I think its paranoia to think LEAs are going to track people en masse. There is simply NO REASON to do so, when we can't even keep up with the call volume now. YOU want to assign some sinister intent. It does matter what agency or part of the country we're talking about, no one has the time for that kind of thing.

But like I said, if it makes you feel wanted......

Yes, the claim was made earlier that cash strapped agencies would sell the information for money

Right.... Your time/GPS location/photo is stored indefinitely and sold to third parties. It would be one thing if it was automated plate check but its not. It's building a database on you and its pretty well documented.

But when a license plate is scanned, the driver’s geographic location is also recorded and saved, along with the date and time, each of which amounts to a record or data point. Such data collection occurs regardless of whether the driver is a wanted criminal, and the vast majority are not.

Simitian’s proposal comes after California Watch reported in January that a Livermore-based company called Vigilant Video had amassed more than a half-billion bits of information on drivers from license-plate scanners. The data come both from police who agree to turn it over for nationwide searches and auto-repossession companies that help banks track down debtors who are delinquent on their car payments.

A company sales manager previously told California Watch that about 1,200 new law enforcement users are signed up every month to search the database, known as the National Vehicle Location Service. While using the devices to nab wanted suspects in real time has a clear value for police, storing historical data from the units is equally alluring to police who are aware of its powerful intelligence value.

The Nation’s largest repository for license plate recognition data shared by all law enforcement
http://nvls-lpr.com/nvls/Default.aspx

Posted: 3/22/2012 2:28:08 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Lets say you're just driving along and doing nothing illegal and a police officer happens to be following you. If they're bored can they run your license plate just because? Or do they need probable cause first?

nope, no pc/rs needed. As a matter of fact I run just about every plate infront of me at a red light. Get some stolen cars and lots of warrants that way.

J-

Posted: 3/22/2012 2:31:41 PM EDT

[#11]

Police give their data to Vigilant ( a private company) to build a database of over 300,000,000 license plate data points. That is Big Brother.

Today, with almost 1,000 LPR cameras in action, this private LPR network yields over 6,000,000 monthly LPR data records from 27 target metropolitan cities.

LEAs that utilize Vigilant Video’s license plate recognition systems are offered a LEARN ‘Agency’ account on
the LEARN-NVLS server at no charge in which to host, access, manage, and share their acquired LPR data.

Vigilant Video Law Enforcement Product Family Site License - Tier 1

• Provides access to Vigilant Video's Law Enforcement Family of Video Analytics software
product(s) includes Car Detector Mobile LPR Edition, Car Detector Fixed LPR Edition, Law
Enforcement Archive & Reporting Network Server (LEARN), CamSmartz, LineUp and other
software applications considered by Vigilant Video to be applicable for benefit of law
enforcement agencies
• Includes all technical support, software maintenance. bug fixes, patches, minor software
upgrades. major software upgrades and all utilities released within the product evolution
• As per the Vigilant Video Law Enforcement Product Family Site License agreement

Vigilant Video's Law Enforcement Archival Reporting Network Software - LEARN

• Includes automated 'Hot-List' management with refresh intelligence
• Automated Car Detector software update management
• Database of all LPR data acquired by each Car Detector system including images
• Complete search. mapping. query and data mining utilities w/ administrative security

Posted: 3/22/2012 3:24:42 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lets say you're just driving along and doing nothing illegal and a police officer happens to be following you. If they're bored can they run your license plate just because? Or do they need probable cause first?

Of course they can. Just like checking your IP. Here, I will show you.
You seem ... familiar.

Quoted:

Quoted:
An officer only has to say he felt a security risk to him or her. At that point the officer can search anywhere in your vehicle that you have easy access to from the seat you are in.

You seem ... familiar.

Classic.

Posted: 3/22/2012 3:26:44 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
I heard a story about an officer who was obsessed with some ex-girlfriend and kept running her new boyfriend's license plate through the LEIN system we have over and over (dozens and dozens of times) and of course obviously at some point someone in his department picked up on it and he lost his job.

Happens all the time here.

Posted: 3/22/2012 3:27:19 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I heard a story about an officer who was obsessed with some ex-girlfriend and kept running her new boyfriend's license plate through the LEIN system we have over and over (dozens and dozens of times) and of course obviously at some point someone in his department picked up on it and he lost his job.

Happens all the time here.

Yep, very common.

Posted: 3/22/2012 4:13:46 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I heard a story about an officer who was obsessed with some ex-girlfriend and kept running her new boyfriend's license plate through the LEIN system we have over and over (dozens and dozens of times) and of course obviously at some point someone in his department picked up on it and he lost his job.

Happens all the time here.

Yep, very common.

My job > Pussy

Posted: 3/22/2012 4:29:41 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I heard a story about an officer who was obsessed with some ex-girlfriend and kept running her new boyfriend's license plate through the LEIN system we have over and over (dozens and dozens of times) and of course obviously at some point someone in his department picked up on it and he lost his job.

Happens all the time here.

Yep, very common.

My job > Pussy

A neighboring jurisdiction had one fucking the mayor's daughter.

He brought the officer's uniform to the Chief(because he found it in his underage daughter's bedroom), and politely asked him to remedy it.

Posted: 3/22/2012 4:35:22 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I heard a story about an officer who was obsessed with some ex-girlfriend and kept running her new boyfriend's license plate through the LEIN system we have over and over (dozens and dozens of times) and of course obviously at some point someone in his department picked up on it and he lost his job.

Happens all the time here.

Yep, very common.

My job > Pussy

A neighboring jurisdiction had one fucking the mayor's daughter.

He brought the officer's uniform to the Chief(because he found it in his underage daughter's bedroom), and politely asked him to remedy it.

It happens.

One thing I learned quickly in life is to CYA.

No one is worth losing my job over. Including my co-workers.

Posted: 3/22/2012 4:37:48 PM EDT

[#18]

This thread is so hot its showing up in triplicate!!!

Posted: 3/22/2012 4:38:51 PM EDT

[#19]

in north carolina your plate is state property. therefore you have no right to privacy in regards to your plate. dont like it, get your good shoes on and fucking walk. if your not a shit head you dont have anything to worry about. unless you one of these whining bitching babys on this site.

Posted: 3/22/2012 4:38:59 PM EDT

[#20]

Americans are defined by their love of security in lieu of freedom.

Posted: 3/22/2012 4:41:35 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Americans are defined by their love of security in lieu of freedom.

True statement.

The fact is, most American citizens don't want to have the responsibility to defend themselves.

Posted: 3/22/2012 4:43:08 PM EDT

[#22]

Hahahaha

I dont even need PC for a traffic stop. ARS is enough.

Posted: 3/22/2012 4:43:35 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

That's going to depend on which system the agency runs. The Youtube bid for Long Beach PD showcases how they not only run it against the hot sheet, wants/warrants/POI's, but also saves the image with a time/date/image/gps location of the cruiser which is downloaded at the end of the shift for later use in criminal cases. If a single car (or light pole traffic camera) reads 10,000 plates a day the possibility for abuse is quite high, let alone a tempting target for companies who would value that data and pay a strapped department for it.

Yes, thats also something that the units do, but I think you're being paranoid about agencies selling the data...what possible use could any non-LE entity have for knowing that a particular plate was on Main St at 3.23 PM today...or anywhere at any given time. That information has a purely LE use if a wanted vehicle is being sought.

Quoted:

But a computer network is good enough for LEO's to pull people over, isn't it?

Not picking on you tonight, just had to point out that if registration and insurance networks are too flawed to trust, so are yours I just got a warning letter from my Secretary of State (our DMV) tonight for points and one of the two tickets it listed isn't mine... What if that were parole or probation violation info?

The reader only gives an alert based on the information that it has in its database If that information hasn't been updated recently, the information could be stale. Thats why I always update the database every day I use the LPR, and when I get an alert off the system I do a rolling data request with dispatch to do a confirmation on the plates status before I actually stop the car.

Its a little different to screw up parole and probation information, but even if there was a mistake somehow, the problem would be easy enough to eventually get verified and corrected, even if it wasn't by the side of the road. I've never seen a mistake of the sort that you're worrying about.

Quoted:
... This thread is funny, I never thought there was this much controversy over police running plates. We've caught a ton of assholes off of -28 checks...

It's ARF you're talking about. There is an anti-LE bipolar element that posts here that on one hand slaps itself on the back and calls LE a worthless reactionary element, but then on the other hand also hates to see LE have any ability to actually CATCH a bad guy. Of course they say that half the laws shouldn't exist, so their definition of a "bad guy" is very limited......

Quoted:

Quoted:
That's why we cruise through hotel parking lots on night shift and run plates too.

A hotel parking lot is private property. Any guest or employee has no legal responsibility to display ANY plate while the vehicle is not being operated on a public road.

Even if true, this won't get you a pass if the plate comes back with an issue.

In a parking lot and an unattended parked car, the only thing we'd look at was if we had a stolen vehicle/ stolen plate hit

In which case it wouldn't matter one bit if it was in a parking lot on private property.

Posted: 3/22/2012 4:53:16 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

What does call volume or TIME have to do with ANYTHING?

I have assigned no intent to anything in any of my posts.

We have limited resources and limited manpower. We are going to devote both to what can give us the best return.

Tracking people who are not the subject of a criminal investigation, when we don't have time for legitimate calls, isn't going to happen.

But I know that there are some who think that every LEA is equipped like something out of a Tom Clancey spy movie with oodles of manpower just sitting around looking for someone to oppress.

Fantasize away, if thats your thing.

There's being paranoid, and there's simply recongnizing the potential capabilities of modern technology, and the extremely simple ways it can be abused when the tech get cheap enough.

It isn't about what's being done at this moment, it's what MIGHT be done 5 years or so from now when the tech matures.
Data storage is CHEAP.

Virtually no database is impossible to hack and manipulate.

The following was printed on Fox News, not Coast to Coast am.....

Now, back to the CIA in your kitchen. When Congress created the CIA in 1947, it expressly prohibited the agency from spying on Americans in America.

Nevertheless, it turns out that if your microwave, burglar alarm or dishwasher is of very recent vintage, and if it is connected to your personal computer, a CIA spy can tell when you are in the kitchen and when you are using that device. The person who revealed this last weekend also revealed that CIA software can learn your habits from all of this and then anticipate them.

Acting "diabolically" and hoping to "change fingerprints and eyeballs" in its "worldwide mission" to steal and keep secrets, the CIA can then gut the Fourth Amendment digitally, without ever physically entering anyone's home. We already know that your BlackBerry or iPhone can tell a spy where you are and, when the battery is connected, what you are saying. But spies in the kitchen? Can this be true?

Who revealed all this last weekend? None other than Gen. David Petraeus himself, President Obama's new director of the CIA.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/03/22/is-cia-already-in-your-kitchen/#ixzz1ptf2Ayzd

Posted: 3/22/2012 5:07:55 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Those plate readers are eventually going to,be installed all over so .gov can track anyone's movement without a warrant.

I've been told I was crazy for saying the same thing.

While the conclusion may be accurate, I have a problem with the path they took to get there.

I have never seen a situation like this where the police didn't abuse it.

Selling the seatbelt laws:
We'll NEVER pull you over just for not wearing your seatbelt.

Cue no seatbelt stops and cites, along with "checkpoints".

They are already installing the readers on fixed location highway applications.

Software is being developed that can analyze a shot of the driver, and determine if said driver is wearing a seatbelt.

No seatbelt, stop and cite or automated ticket in the mail.

That'll never happen, you say?

The software is being developed, already.

I seem to remember the same thing about red light and speed cams.

Both of which are creeping into Jefferson Co, already active in Montgomery, along with a few other AL locales.

AL has already installed solar powered radar systems up and down I-65, supposedly for recording/counting traffic for highway funds, never for enforcement, we were told.

Strangely enough, cameras are finding their way to the top of the poles on these devices.

Purely for traffic observation, we are told.

It's weird how 95% of what we are told will "never happen" does.

Posted: 3/22/2012 9:33:59 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The problem I have with storing images with plates/locations and that info getting into the wrong hands are that it is a basic invasion of privacy. With enough image captures (particularly from traffic cameras where your patterns can be monitored to within a city block anywhere in my metropolitan area) the police can draw a pretty damned good picture of how you live, where you go, what you do. In my opinion, it exceeds the scope of "not having a reasonable expectation of privacy on a public street". The data can be used for political gain and blackmailing as well-say a Sherrif is having a close election and one of his cars has multiple photos of his opponent at a strip club and uses that to his advantage? What if it there were a case where an agency was under scrutiny for excessive force and tried to blackmail the person suing them because they know he visits his girlfriend on the side every day. Hell, my insurance company would love to know where I travel to so they can better charge me for my coverage.

The problem with having these things around is that there's always someone more creative than you and I looking to abuse the system.

You have no expectation of privacy in a public area.
You're coming up with soem fairly far-fetched excuses for not having LPRs

I believe that in public a person does not have a right to privacy. However, when an agency moves to the level of cataloging my travel patterns and where I come and go that rises to the level of an invasion of my reasonable expectation of privacy. I just don't see the interest balancing equation where my loss of privacy is worth a massive database that is ostensibly used for crime fighting.

Posted: 3/22/2012 9:43:03 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Lets say you're just driving along and doing nothing illegal and a police officer happens to be following you. If they're bored can they run your license plate just because? Or do they need probable cause first?

Of course they can. Just like checking your IP. Here, I will show you.
You seem ... familiar.

Posted: 3/23/2012 2:35:23 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Cops run license plates ALL OF THE TIME. It is in plain view, so they can do what they want with that info.

Can and should are two different things.

Running plate of car with busted tail light vs Using a fleet of vehicles to log 50,000 plates daily.

Posted: 3/23/2012 2:40:43 PM EDT

[#29]

...

Posted: 3/23/2012 3:26:23 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Lets say you're just driving along and doing nothing illegal and a police officer happens to be following you. If they're bored can they run your license plate just because? Or do they need probable cause first?

Of course they can. Just like checking your IP. Here, I will show you.
You seem ... familiar.

* clank *

Posted: 3/23/2012 3:42:11 PM EDT

[#31]

I usually pull them over an ask if it's ok for me to run their tag.

Posted: 3/23/2012 5:33:53 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The entity you cited might have some initial large success because of the backlog of scoflaws. Eventually that backlog will dry up. It's like when we implemented the LPR, I was getting a ton of hits because we were the only agency running one in the county and we had a ton of people out there with suspensions. fast forward a few years, several agencies are running LPRs and more of the suspended folks are getting caught sooner. Not so many hits in a day as I used to get when the system was new.

You missed the point. The point is that ALL THAT INFORMATION, including information from multiple database (License Plate, -> Registration -> address or SSN -> tax records) systems were leveraged to enable this particular result. You keep saying it won't happen - this is an example of it happening.

Before you were speaking of non government entities gaining the information. The license plate number is obviously not protected, as it is in public view, but the data behind it is. If you walked up to an officer and asked them to run the plate number of ABC1234, and tell you who the owner is and where they lived, do you think you'd get an answer?

That data is for law enforcement only.

Posted: 3/23/2012 8:53:03 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
I had a LPR car in my last assignment - state grant paid for it.
Killed 'em on warrant arrests & recovered stolens.

This.
I loved my brand new car with the Plate Hunter system. Arrest OT out the ass. God I hate desk duty and the loss of pensionable OT.

Posted: 3/23/2012 8:55:25 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I had a LPR car in my last assignment - state grant paid for it.
Killed 'em on warrant arrests & recovered stolens.

This.
I loved my brand new car with the Plate Hunter system. Arrest OT out the ass.

Only problem with LPRs around here, is most of the a-holes drive mommy and daddy cars, so the RO won't get a hit like the driver would.

Posted: 3/23/2012 8:57:22 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The entity you cited might have some initial large success because of the backlog of scoflaws. Eventually that backlog will dry up. It's like when we implemented the LPR, I was getting a ton of hits because we were the only agency running one in the county and we had a ton of people out there with suspensions. fast forward a few years, several agencies are running LPRs and more of the suspended folks are getting caught sooner. Not so many hits in a day as I used to get when the system was new.

You missed the point. The point is that ALL THAT INFORMATION, including information from multiple database (License Plate, -> Registration -> address or SSN -> tax records) systems were leveraged to enable this particular result. You keep saying it won't happen - this is an example of it happening.

Before you were speaking of non government entities gaining the information. The license plate number is obviously not protected, as it is in public view, but the data behind it is. If you walked up to an officer and asked them to run the plate number of ABC1234, and tell you who the owner is and where they lived, do you think you'd get an answer?

That data is for law enforcement only.

I wasn't speaking of anything other than government agencies. Regarding your statement "that data is for law enforcement only." In order for the above to have happened, agencies other than Law Enforcement had access to the data.

My point has continuously been that it is a simple step from running ALPR against a "hot sheet," to storing all sorts of data. Something tc556guy has claimed is not, and will not, be done.

Regardless, that data being "for law enforcement only" does not make it OK. Nor do I think the idea that data is restricted to LE is necessarily true. Earlier on this page someone posted marketing material from one of the ALPR companies which implies they have and control such a database.

Posted: 3/23/2012 9:27:14 PM EDT

[#36]

Well, it looks like it's time to sell the cars and buy some horses. Time to get off the grid before the man comes crashing down on me! Might be kinda tough being in the military though. I wonder if I can even ride a horse on base without a decal?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - does a police officer need probable cause to run your license plate when you're driving? (Page 5 of 5)

General » General Discussion

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us