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Posted: 7/6/2002 2:41:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Lesson:
No matter WHAT caliber handgun you are using, know that motivated enemies aren't necessarily going to be "one-shot-stopped" by a handgun, or even from a rifle for that matter. Only direct CNS hits are guarenteed stoppers, and the CNS has lots of natural defense (skull around the brain, and vertabre protecting the small spinal column). Some people freak out when shot, and "know" they're going to die. Others don't even seem to notice, as their minds are focused elsewhere. -Troy |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 2:44:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Point taken Troy,
still, why do I have this feeling that Mr. Safirs handgun was only a .380- or less? And yes I am looking through the wire reports to see if I can find out what he was using for sure, but no luck yet... |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 2:49:53 PM EDT
[#3]
Looks like security didn't get to the one to the head part of the drill.
Handguns are for when you can't have your rifle and for fighting your way to a rifle. Nothing short of a fully functioning Thermonuclear weapon of appropriate size will guarantee a one shot stop. Keep shooting center of mass until they go down. |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 3:08:57 PM EDT
[#4]
.45.........
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Posted: 7/6/2002 3:38:58 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: .45......... Yep,, the silvertips work fine. |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 3:47:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Did the security officer only shoot 2 times compared to 10 from the suspect??
It only recounts 2 shots by the security officer. Of course we know how accurate that might be. We covered this, regardless of caliber, or weapon type, once you are threatened with unlawful deadly force, and you decide that shooiting at the suspect is tactical viable, shoot until they suspect stops being a threat. If that means 1 shot, or 9, shoot until they stop. I wonder if the security officer that was shooting wasn't trying to shoot while the othe security officer and the Dr. were struggling with the suspect, trying to keep him from effectively using his weapons, while inadvertantly obscuring the suspect from the security officer that was in a postion to shoot at the suspect. |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 5:17:20 PM EDT
[#7]
I remember a video we watched in college, I think it was one of the "Street Stoppers" series, but the video had actual footage of a clerk being shot 6 times during a robbery (some directly into the heart) and surving long enough after the robbers left to call 911 for herself.
Jake |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 6:00:20 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Finally, the life ebbed from Mr. Hadayet, who died on the floor. F.B.I. agents said that the clip in his gun was empty and that they believed he had fired all 10 rounds. |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 6:02:24 PM EDT
[#9]
There have been many documented shooting incidents where fatally wounded subjects have returned controlled fire and then promptly expired. In other incidents subjects have been incapacitated and killed with one-shot flesh wounds.
Several years ago in a firefight with two police officers a subject was shot through the heart with a 12ga shotgun slug. He was able to return fire for approximately one minute killing one of the PO's. The El Al security personnel and the trauma surgeon should be commended for their actions. They ended the attack successfully without any further injury to anyone. |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 6:08:27 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: There have been many documented shooting incidents where fatally wounded subjects have returned controlled fire and then promptly expired. In other incidents subjects have been incapacitated and killed with one-shot flesh wounds. Several years ago in a firefight with two police officers a subject was shot through the heart with a 12ga shotgun slug. He was able to return fire for approximately one minute killing one of the PO's. The El Al security personnel and the trauma surgeon should be commended for their actions. They ended the attack successfully without any further injury to anyone. Can you say, "FBI", "Miami", "two dead agents". |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 6:12:00 PM EDT
[#11]
LARRYG: "I have never seen a clip in a handgun. If an FBI guy really called it a clip, then he is a real dumbass. "
The only handguns to use a 'clip' being C96 Mauser Broomhandle's, 1912 Steyr's & a few other outdated turn of the century designs...+ the Grendel pocket pistol. |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 6:16:22 PM EDT
[#12]
So the BG had one of those PC 10 round magazines in his 9mm?
Guess they do a lot to prevent crime, huh? [rolleyes] IMHO the security guard's weapon did more to prevent (further) crime than any gun-grabber's ban. But I'm preaching to the choir.... [:(] EDITED for typo. |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 6:17:36 PM EDT
[#13]
ArmdLbrl, it's possible that with all the people in the airport, and this idiot moving around, and all the people moving also, a clear shot couldn't be taken. Unless that is, if one just ran up and shot the moron at point blank. It would be great if the media would get ONE story staight, but with them reporting hair clips in guns, I don't think it's possible. ha ha
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Posted: 7/6/2002 6:34:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Take a look at [url=communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/11april86.html]the FBI Miami Firefight[/url] if you want to see the classic case study exploding the myth of the one shot stop. Platt and Matix were military veterans, and didn't buy into the notion that if you're shot, you're done.
You shoot until the threat is down and no longer a threat. Not that it's going to come as a surprise to anyone, but I'm sure the only reason that the bad guy at LAX got off all ten shots while the El Al security guy got off only two was that the bad guy didn't care who he hurt -the more, the better in his f'd up view- and the El Al guy did. Bravo Zulu, El Al guy! |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 10:37:00 PM EDT
[#15]
If the threat is still coming, you need to put one in the ocular cranial cavity, a "box" from eyebrow to bottom of the nose and extending to the edges of the eyes. Because of the eye sockets and sinuses, this area is the least protected entrance into the brain. Shots to the left & right or above can too easily be deflected by the skull. Shots below will not affect enough, if any, brain matter to stop the subject.
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Posted: 7/6/2002 10:39:22 PM EDT
[#16]
10mm Glock! 45-70 Revolver!!
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Posted: 7/6/2002 10:51:47 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: .45......... Yep ! |
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Posted: 7/6/2002 10:54:06 PM EDT
[#18]
What would St. Gabriel Possenti have to say about this?
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Posted: 7/7/2002 5:45:06 AM EDT
[#19]
The armed El Al security agent did a good job.
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Posted: 7/7/2002 5:50:04 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: I have never seen a clip in a handgun. If an FBI guy really called it a clip, then he is a real dumbass. [img]http://www.iar-arms.com/images3/c96-10.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 6:13:40 AM EDT
[#21]
Don't know about El Al, but the Israelis used to be very partial to s.a. Berettas in .22 l.r. While not the choice most of us would make, they have accounted for a lot of dead bad guys.
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Posted: 7/7/2002 7:24:49 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: I have never seen a clip in a handgun. If an FBI guy really called it a clip, then he is a real dumbass. This uses clips. [img]http://album.gunsnet.net/data/philinseattle/159_p1717.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 12:07:21 PM EDT
[#23]
His wounds were fatal, center of the chest. But even though his heart was pierced, experts have stated in interviews that a perpetrator can still move around for about 20 seconds before his blood supply to his brain runs out. Which sounds like exactly what happened. The bystandard that grabbed his legs while he was on the ground being subdued by El Al security noticed that he got a couple stabs in and then all of a sudden just went limp.
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Posted: 7/7/2002 12:25:22 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: So the BG had one of those PC 10 round magazines in his 9mm? Guess they do a lot to prevent crime, huh? [rolleyes] IMHO the security guard's weapon did more to prevent (further) crime than any gun-grabber's ban. But I'm preaching to the choir.... [:(] EDITED for typo. I think the FBI stated the shooter used his Glock .45 but I could be wrong, anybody with clarification? |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 12:34:13 PM EDT
[#25]
Local paper stated that it was a Glock 21 (45ACP) and a 9mm that the attacker had.
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Posted: 7/7/2002 5:23:05 PM EDT
[#26]
i believe the guard got off only 2 shots because of the other guard struggling with the attacker made it hard to get more clean shots.
Trust me , they dont fuck around, if he was able to he would have emptied a mag into that sucker. I believe they use a Sig p-226 9mm |
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