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Posted: 7/2/2002 4:36:13 PM EDT
From the Washington Times of June 6, 2002, a full-page advertisement on page 11: --------------------------------------------------- U.S.S. LIBERTY VETERANS ASSOCIATION June 1, 2002 President George W. Bush Commander in Chief, White House, Washington D.C. Dear Mr. President, Saturday, June 8, 2002 marks the 35th anniversary of probably the most shameful day in American history. That day America's banner and honor was treacherously trashed by our so-called ally, Israel. Thirty four Americans were brutally slaughtered, 172 wounded, including myself, and America's most sophisticated intelligence ship was so badly damaged it had to be scrapped. Israel deliberately attacked America's virtually unarmed USS LIBERTY in international waters, knowing full well our identity, in an assault that lasted as long as the attack on Pearl Harbor. On that bright, sunny infamous day, the LIBERTY had a large American flag flapping in the wind and 10' high I.D. markings on her hull which were clearly visible during the full six hours(6:00 A.M. to 12:00 Noon) that low flying, slow moving, propeller recons distinctly marked with Star of Davids reconnoitered our ship. Overheard radio transmission of the pilots confirmed that Israel had positively identified the LIBERTY as American. Suddenly at 2:00 p.m., the government of Israel put a knife in the back of America. In a diabolic attempt at deception, the Israelis began the attack with unmarked jet fighters using rockets, cannons, and napalm on our unprotected ship. Then three motor torpedo boats arrived on the scene and fired 6 torpedoes at us, one hitting its mark, midship's on the starboard side, instantly blowing to bits 25 of America's finest young men. The torpedo gunmen shot at our firefighters and stretcher bear- ers, using us as target practice, maiming and murdering as many of America's sons as they could. The captain ordered us to prepare to abandon ship as the ship was in grave danger of sinking from a torpedo hit that left a 40' x 40' hole in her. There were only 3 life rafts left that they hadn't already destroyed. We put them over the side to put as many wounded in as possible. The torpedo boats machine gunned the life rafts and sank two of them and took one aboard their boat -- no survivors were to be taken! Helicopters were overhead to board our ship with Israeli commandos at the ready to finish us off. Responding to a S.O.S. from the LIBERTY, the USS SARATOGA launched their jets approximately 15 minutes into the vicious Israeli attack. Within minutes after the launch, incredibly and inexplicably, Washington shamefully and unconscionably recalled the jets, abandoning helpless American sailors under fire, and subjecting them to an additional two hours of barbaric Israeli bombardment and butchery. (cont)
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:36:49 PM EDT
Fortuitously when the Israelis picked up an invalid message that U.S. help was on the way, Israel reluctantly was forced to terminate its ongoing assault. Without that break, I would not be alive writing this letter. Ironically help did not arrive until 18 hours after the attack when it was only 15 minutes away. When an American rescue ship finally arrived, what they found was shocking, the LIBERTY was in shambles, death on the water. There were 821 rocket and cannon holes in her hull, thousands of 50 caliber armor piercing bullets riddling her skin, a tunnel size torpedo cavity in her broad side, and the residue of napalm that had been dropped to burn us up. Blood and body parts were strewn across the deck. A sad,outrageous story, but unfortunately true. The crew of the most decorated naval ship in American history was ordered to remain silent under threat of court martial, imprisonment or worse, and we all knew what worst meant. The U.S. government has never challenged the obviously phony Israeli excuse of "mistaken identity" nor have they attempted to expose the dishonorable cover up that continues to date. Truth and America's honor were ignominiously sacrificed to provide cover for Israel's transparent lies and despicable act of perfidy. Israel's premeditated, sneak attack on the USS LIBERTY was a direct attack on America. The disgraceful refusal of unpatriotic American governmental officials of dubious allegiance to defend America and come to the aid of brave Americans under attack can only be characterized as treasonous. Mr. President, on behalf of the courageous crew of the USS LIBERTY, dead and alive, I respectfully request that you commission a presidential panel to finally investigate the attack and cover-up of the USS LIBERTY, and report the truth to American people. Thank you, Mr. President. God bless you! God less America! Respectfully, Phillip F. Tourney, President USS LIBERTY Veterans Association
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:38:05 PM EDT
This July 4th, remember the Liberty, and our "ally". May these American heroes rest in peace, and may their Israeli attackers burn in hell.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:38:09 PM EDT
cool i get it.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:44:04 PM EDT
What is the USS Liberty? One often hears complaints about Israel's mistaken attack on the USS Liberty during the 6-day war, apparently thinking there was some sort of "Zionist Conspiracy" to kill some US soldiers. During the Gulf War a British armored division was attacked by US aircraft. Should we suspect some sort of American Conspiracy to kill British soldiers? Mistakes happen in the heat of battle. This is not evidence of conspiracy. During the Gulf war U.S. armored vehicles where attacked by U.S aircraft. Does this mean there was an American Conspiracy to kill Americans??? The attack on the USS Liberty was tragic, but the Liberty was mistakenly identified as an Egyptian supply vessel. The following is a description of the event as published in THE BOATS OF CHERBOURG (pg 68-69) 1988, by Abraham Rabinovich, a senior feature writer for the JERUSALEM POST, and a foreign correspondent: "Unknown to the Israelis, the vessel had sailed into the war zone on June 8, the fourth day of the war, to monitor battlefield communications. On that day, naval headquarters in Haifa ordered three torpedo boats to sail from Ashdod harbor to check reports that El Arish, captured by the army three days before was being shelled from the sea. The explosions and smoke in El Arish had in fact been caused by an Egyptian ammunition dump that detonated. However, as the torpedo boats approached the area, their radar picked up a target to the west, moving away from El Arish. Presuming it to be an Egyptian warship, naval headquarters called for an air strike to slow up the seemingly fleeing vessel." "Two Mirages were directed the the area, and the lead pilot reported "seeing no flag". The ship had two guns on the forecastle and was clearly not Israeli. Liberty crewmen would firmly maintain afterward that the American flag was being flown, but the Mirage pilot's report was taken at navy headquarters as confirmation that the ship was an Egyptian vessel trying to reach Port Said. Ordered to attack, the planes set the vessel afire with strafing runs. The smoke thickened when another plane dispatched to the scene dropped a napalm bomb on the Liberty's deck." Continued...
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:45:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 4:45:36 PM EDT by Scipio]
Why was a US ship in a war zone? "there are many open questions: Why a message from the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS message 072230Z) directing the ship to remain at least 20 miles off the Egyptian coast was delayed for 14 hours and why, when it was finally transmitted, it was sent in error to the Naval Communication Center in the Philippines. Why a second crucial message from the Joint Chiefs drafted at 2.00 a.m. on the morning of June 8, exactly 12 hours before the ship was attacked, ordering the Liberty to steam at least 100 miles from the coast was lost as well... [had the message 080917] been received, there would have been no Liberty incident." Exerpt from Israeli Attack on U.S. Ship Reveals Failure of C3 by James M. Ennes, Jr, the crypto specialist and Deck Officer of the USS Liberty, in Electronics Defense Mag. in 1981 "The United States made several serious, almost frantic attempts to move the ship. As the Liberty approached Gaza, the Joint Chiefs of Staff first sent a priority message ordering the ship to move 20 miles from the coast; the message was swamped by higher precedence traffic and was not processed until long after the crisis had ended. Hours later, a JCS duty officer phoned naval headquarters in London to relay an urgent JCS order to move the ship 100 miles from the coast; the telephone call was ignored, and Liberty's copy of the confirming message was misrouted to the Philipines before being returned to the Pentagon, where it was again misrouted, this time to Fort Meade in Maryland, where it was lost." "Eventually, at least six critical messages were lost, delayed, or otherwise mishandled. Any one of those messages might have saved Liberty. None reached the ship." continued...
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:45:50 PM EDT
Sign the petition for an investigation: [url]http://www.petitiononline.com/liberty/petition.html[/url]
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:47:19 PM EDT
Wasn't the ship clearly identified as a US ship? Wasn't it obvious? "Yes, there was doubt as to the identify of the ship. One of the pilots identified it as a Russian vessel during the course of the attack, bringing the cabinet into emergency session. This fear was quickly dispelled. And yes, there still remains controversy about whether or not there was an American flag visible at the time of the attack. But while some mystery remains, the truth is now basically known: The incident was a tragic mistake marked by serious errors of judgement on both sides, complicated by the fog and urgency of war and compounded by an almost childish rivalry between the air force and the navy as to who would grab the prize: sinking what was genuinely thought to be an Egyptian ship shelling Israeli forces at El Arish from the sea." "...Mistakes are not uncommon in war. The day before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli warplanes bombed and strafed an Israeli armored column near Jenin in the West Bank. During the Lebanese war, in June 1982, over 20 Israeli servicemen were killed when a Phantom jet pilot mistakenly identified Israeli tanks as Syrian. In May 1987, in the Gulf, the USS Stark was accidentally hit by Iraqi warplanes, killing 37 servicemen. An Iranian civilian airliner was shot down by an over-anxious American battleship crew in May 1988, killing all 290 passengers on board. So it was with the Liberty, an American spy ship, that should not have been where it was, when it was." "The son of Amiral Erell, Udi was an ensign aboard one of the torpedo boats. He could see the smoke from a long distance as the boats raced at top speed toward the scene. As the vessel came into view, Erell's skipper scanned an identification book containing pictures of the ships in the Arab fleets and consulted with the commanders on the other boats. The squadron commander concluded that the ship was the Egyptian supply vessel EL QUSEIR. Ensign Erell, looking over his skipper's shoulder at the picture and glancing up at the burning vessel, fully agreed, even though he would later recall that the mast in the picture was not positioned identically with the mast of the target vessel...." "Nevertheless, the squadron commander sought to confirm the vessel's identity before attacking. When the Israeli signalman flashed the message "What ship?" Udi Erell saw the response flickering through the smoke four miles away---"AAA", the signal meaning "Identify yourself first." The same signal had been flashed, the Israelis were aware, by the Egyptian destroyer challenged off Haifa during the Sinai Campaign in 1956. Americans on the bridge of the Liberty would later state that the signals flashed were the ship's name and its international call sign, not what the Israelis believed they saw. Even with binoculars, Erell could make out "no flag". The sqaudron commander ordered his boats to commence torpedo attacks. The vessels peeled off to make their runs and fired five torpedos. Only one hit home. The boats raked the burning ship, now dead in the water, with their guns." continued...
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:48:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:49:34 PM EDT
"Fire was halted when one of the officers reported seeing the identification markings CTR-5 on the ship's hull, markings that were not those of an Arab vessel. Notified of this, Haifa ordered the sqaudron commander to pick up survivors and definitely establish the ship's identity......Drawing closer to the burning vessel, they were able to make out a flag. It was not opened by a breeze and could not immediately be identified, but it was clearly not Egyptian...." "Udi saw a splash of red on the flag and heard a report being sent back to Haifa that the vessel might be Russian. The report caused shock and consternation when passed on to General Staff headquarters. The shock was not abated when the torpedo-spadron commander reported half an hour later that he had identified the vessel as American." Why would Israel have attacked a ship belonging to the U.S., a friend of Israel? "None of Israel's accusers has been able to explain adequately why Israel would have deliberately attacked an American ship. Confusion in a long line of communications, which occurred in a tense atmosphere on both the American and Israeli sides (a message from the Joint Chiefs of Staff for the ship to remain at least 20 miles off the Egyptian coast never arrived) is a more probable explanation." They write: "Accidents caused by "friendly fire" are not uncommon in wartime. In 1988, the U.S. Navy mistakenly downed an Iranian passenger plane, killing 290 civilians. During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148 Americans who died in battle were killed by "friendly fire." In fact, only the day before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots accidentally bombed one of their own armored columns south of Jenin on the West Bank." As a former high-ranking Israeli naval officer, Shlomo Erell, told the Associated Press (June 5, 1977): "No one would ever have dreamt that an American ship would be there. Even the United States didn't know where its ship was. We were advised by the proper authorities that there was no American ship within 100 miles." "It was the conclusion of the investigatory body, headed by an admiral of the navy in whom we have great confidence, that the attack was not intentional." - Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, to Congress on July 26, 1967: Israel did apologize for the tragedy and paid millions of dollars in reparations to the United States and to the families of the victims. The other side of the coin...
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:52:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:02:20 PM EDT
Oh for f#(k's sake, how can you attack a ship for six hours and not know who it is!? Did the Liberty even return fire? If not than how can you attack a ship that's not returning fire for six hours? I'll admit I am no expert on the matter, but if the veterans tail is even remotely true then the Israelis got away with murder.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:13:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 5:29:18 PM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Scipio, do you have a source, a link to where you got your information?
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:30:08 PM EDT
You know, your right, we should never cooperate with anyone who ever killed a American soldier. Lets nuke London, after all the British never apologiezed for burning Washington, and we never have gotten revenge. I demand George Bush command the immediate destruction of London and demand a apology from the crown [sarcasm] You Jew haters make me sick, you'll resort to anything wont you? However many Americans are killed by Arabs its all Isreals fault isn't it? Your position isn't even worthy of debate, its motivated by pure hatred and noting more.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:36:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: You Jew haters make me sick, you'll resort to anything wont you? However many Americans are killed by Arabs its all Isreals fault isn't it? Your position isn't even worthy of debate, its motivated by pure hatred and noting more.
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Try that line on the dead and wounded of the USS Liberty, ArmdLbrl.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:44:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Lets nuke London, after all the British never apologiezed for burning Washington, and we never have gotten revenge. I demand George Bush command the immediate destruction of London and demand a apology from the crown [sarcasm]
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Of course, we were at war. With the British.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:45:26 PM EDT
Jarhead_22...here you go Devil Dog http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/ussliberty.html And Hannah...your name says it all
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:47:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: You know, your right, we should never cooperate with anyone who ever killed a American soldier. Lets nuke London, after all the British never apologiezed for burning Washington, and we never have gotten revenge. I demand George Bush command the immediate destruction of London and demand a apology from the crown [sarcasm]
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That was a [b]WAR[/b]. Maybe you heard about it, they called it the [b]WAR[/b] of 1812? It was in all the papers.
You Jew haters make me sick, you'll resort to anything wont you? However many Americans are killed by Arabs its all Isreals fault isn't it? Your position isn't even worthy of debate, its motivated by pure hatred and noting more.
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The stupidity and arrogance of this remark are breathtaking. By definition, anyone who questions any of the actions of Israel is a "Jew hater?" Is that it? Or would you like to define the term for me?
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:54:54 PM EDT
amen. I signed the petition. You won't get anywhere trying to reason with some folks here. It's kind of like trying to teach a pig to sing. I have to wonder about them claiming we are all anti jew. John ex CTT2 USN, I would like to see the truth about this for a change.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:12:07 PM EDT
Look...I don't believe that any negative statement made about Israel means that the speaker is an anti-semite. To blindly support Israel, or anything or anyone for that matter, is just plain narrow-minded and foolish. However, many people, some on this board included, do make many statements that are just so blatantly anti-semetic. The more they say, the more obvious it becomes. Often times, one does not even need to respond...most continue to put their own feet in their mouths. True colors always come out. When I posted the info. that tells the other side of the coin, my point was simply to emphasise that there are two sides to every story and NOTHING is ever black and white...rather, the vast majority resides somewhere in the area of a dark grey. Contrary to some opinions, and without bringing up my own military background, you do not need to be an expert military analyst to conclude one way or another. Nor will 4 years as a grunt, an airman, or a sailor who probably scraped barnicles of the bottom of Navy ships for an MOS help in concluding what happened on that fateful day... Shit happens, its horrible when it does, but we must move forward. I think the fact that Israel sincerely apologized and did in fact pay millions in reparations to the US Government and the families of the brave sailors speaks volumes...If the US government was trying to put a lid on it, don't you think the Israelis would have as well and thus denied any responsibility or liability? Some will always try to capitalize on tragic events of the past to serve their own hidden, and in some cases not so hidden agendas...
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:22:32 PM EDT
As I was led to understand, two or three days after the actual incident, the Liberty was there to relay information on Israeli troop movements to the Egyptian military intelligence Hq. at the request of the US State Dept. and Chevron Inc. formerly known as Standard Oil Company of Calif.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:25:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Scipio: Jarhead_22...here you go Devil Dog http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/ussliberty.html
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Yeah, if you want to read about how 'everybody's out to get Israel and the Jews', that's the place to go, alright. [url] http://www.yahoodi.com/[/url]
And Hannah...your name says it all
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Please explain this remark fully, if you have any courage. Are you calling her a Nazi? Sure sounds like it, except you don't have the stones to come right out and say it.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:31:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 6:33:03 PM EDT by Scipio]
prk...is that short for prick? If my screen name was Herman Goering or Heinrich Himmler...would you think I was a nazi? Or would my name have to be Adolf Hitler for you to come to that conclusion? As for the link, I've never heard of the site nor have any knowledge of who they are or what they do...I did a random search for information on the USS Liberty and that was the most accessible.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:40:41 PM EDT
As someone who, in 1944 at the age of six, was badly burned by being thrown into a large bonfire by the 15 year old son of a convicted "bund" member in Chicago; I find Naziism and its sympathizers rather offensive. I also feel those who profess the Nazi beliefs are just as offensive.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:45:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By marsh: As someone who, in 1944 at the age of six, was badly burned by being thrown into a large bonfire by the 15 year old son of a convicted "bund" member in Chicago; I find Naziism and its sympathizers rather offensive.
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I don't believe that, for a number of reasons.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:46:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 6:49:32 PM EDT by Dugster]
There is no defending what Israel did to the USS Liberty, it was a deliberate attack. The sooner all Americans learn this the sooner you will be able to put it behind you and move on. The ship was probably attacked because it intercepted communication that was contradictory too what Israel was telling the United States at the time and Israel did not want the electronic warfare ship in range to intercept anymore communication. Letting the truth come out is not anti-semitic or Israel bashing it is just finally getting history right and trying to heal old wounds, those wounds will never heal if the truth is not allowed to be told for political reasons. What the Vet's of the USS Liberty have had to endure over the last many years is a black eye on American freedom and another indictment on the Johnson administration.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:48:48 PM EDT
I look at it like this.... The Liberty was a tragedy. Why the hell did it happen? Some look at it the way I do. Those who have an anti-Jew/Israeli bias, never seem to ask why. They like to leave the question hanging in the air.... The insinuation being: they're the Evil, Treacherous Jews...what do you expect? So, when this issue comes up, remember this.... Those who want answers, and want to know "why", are the ones who truly care about those sailors who died, and their memory. Those who bring this tragedy up, to reinforce their arguments as to why they dislike Jews/Israelis... ....don't give a DAMN about those poor, dead sailors. They're too filled with hate to have room for sympathy. Remember, just reread the threads, look at the posts. If they don't ask why....
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:53:23 PM EDT
Dugster... Your reasoning for the occurance of the event is one of many possible explainations...it is however, rational and quite possibly one of the few more plausable explainations... I also agree that the truth, whatever it may be must come out and that the sailors of the Liberty deserve, at the least, that much...its always the victims that suffer the most.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:53:37 PM EDT
Kar98- You don't believe what? That I find Nazis rather offensive? Trust me, I do. Actually, his father was convicted of trying to smuggle explosives disguised as lumps of coal into electrical power generating plant. Coincidentally, he was a member of a "bund" in Chicago
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:57:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By marsh: Kar98- You don't believe what?
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Your story from 1944, that I don't believe, sounds like bullsh|t to me.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 7:03:49 PM EDT
It is obvious that anyone who questions Israel in the USS Liberty incident does so purely for anti semetic reasons, including the JEWISH members of the crew of the USS Liberty who have made identical accusations against the state of Israel.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 7:04:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 7:06:07 PM EDT by marsh]
Kar98- Probably long before you were born but, if you say so, you must be right. Gotta go. Dinner time. marsh
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 7:16:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Scipio: prk...is that short for prick?
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Not really, but in your case, I DO appreciate the sentiment, however lame.
If my screen name was Herman Goering or Heinrich Himmler...would you think I was a nazi? Or would my name have to be Adolf Hitler for you to come to that conclusion?
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You still won't say what you mean, will you? To respond to your question, you would have to abandon your one-dimensional outlook, for me to pay you any more attention.
As for the link, I've never heard of the site nor have any knowledge of who they are or what they do...I did a random search for information on the USS Liberty and that was the most accessible.
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Uh huh. My Yahoo search gives 4 other ones ahead of yours. But they might not agree with your viewpoint. Some of them actually think our 'friends' knew exactly what they were doing.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 7:19:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 7:29:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: Kar98, It looks like you defend anything that is anti Nazi the same as you accuse some of us that is anti Jewish.
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Was I frigging talking to you? What does your gibberish mean anyway?
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 7:30:16 PM EDT
prk... Why don't you stop defending Hannah...let her speak for herself. I'm not attacking her...just making an observation that seems clear as day. If my observation is wrong, why isn't she saying so? As far as the link goes, if you would actually read my posts, you might have comprehended that I specifically looked for information that was contrary to the opinion of the article posted by Hannah... Stop wasting my time and your time and read what people type before you respond to it.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 7:32:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 10:26:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PSG1: It is obvious that anyone who questions Israel in the USS Liberty incident does so purely for anti semetic reasons, including the JEWISH members of the crew of the USS Liberty who have made identical accusations against the state of Israel.
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You are correct sir. Now shut up and don't forget to pay your taxes so the proper amount of foreign aid goes the only country that is fighting for your truth, justice and the American way- ISRAEL.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 10:40:19 PM EDT
I wasn't there. But it does seem like 6 hours is kind of a long time to fire on an unidentified vessel.... Scott
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 11:11:59 PM EDT
My point in making the first post, was that in any discussion of the Liberty, it is always tossed around that, "Well, you weren't there!" Well, the man that wrote that piece WAS there. I support Americans. I hate when foreign countries get away with murder of Americans, and then double talk their way out of it. And, yes, I expected the shrill voices to screech "anti-semite!" yet again, as they always do when their Israel-can-do-no-wrong opinions are challenged. Big deal. It means they have no real argument, and must instantly resort to name calling. Nothing in what I posted relates even distantly to nazis, but instead supports our brave American sailors who died and were hideously wounded that day in a 6 HOUR attack. Yes, that IS a bit more than a stray bomb here or there, isn't it? Try to remember the USS Liberty this July 4th. We owe them at least this much.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 11:20:49 PM EDT
Does there need to be an investigation? Yes there does. The American people need to know what happened. It COULD have been a deliberate act. It COULD have been a case of mistaken identity. If we find out one way or another will it make a difference in our attitude of support of Israel? I doubt it. The Japanese attacked us in 1941 and we defeated them, rebuilt them and are now friends with them, and their attack was much worse. To say we should not support Israel because of this incident is a bit foolish but we should know the truth.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 12:50:14 AM EDT
One question: If a Israeli (British, French, Australian, German and so on) ship was spying US Army communication during Gulf War and passing those information to Saddam Hussein, should US Armed forces stop it with any mean or not?
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 12:54:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dukota: Does there need to be an investigation? Yes there does. The American people need to know what happened. It COULD have been a deliberate act. It COULD have been a case of mistaken identity. If we find out one way or another will it make a difference in our attitude of support of Israel? I doubt it. The Japanese attacked us in 1941 and we defeated them, rebuilt them and are now friends with them, and their attack was much worse. To say we should not support Israel because of this incident is a bit foolish but we should know the truth.
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You told it. I agree.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 4:47:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PaoloAR15: One question: If a Israeli (British, French, Australian, German and so on) ship was spying US Army communication during Gulf War and passing those information to Saddam Hussein, should US Armed forces stop it with any mean or not?
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Please expand on this, Paolo. Are you saying that we were passing on to the Egyptians the intercepts that the Liberty was picking up?
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 5:01:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch: My point in making the first post, was that in any discussion of the Liberty, it is always tossed around that, "Well, you weren't there!" Well, the man that wrote that piece WAS there. I support Americans. I hate when foreign countries get away with murder of Americans, and then double talk their way out of it. And, yes, I expected the shrill voices to screech "anti-semite!" yet again, as they always do when their Israel-can-do-no-wrong opinions are challenged. Big deal. It means they have no real argument, and must instantly resort to name calling. Nothing in what I posted relates even distantly to nazis, but instead supports our brave American sailors who died and were hideously wounded that day in a 6 HOUR attack. Yes, that IS a bit more than a stray bomb here or there, isn't it? Try to remember the USS Liberty this July 4th. We owe them at least this much.
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[img]http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/PICS32/BUCH04.JPG[/img] The Gates Of Buchenwald Concentration Camp
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 5:19:50 AM EDT
From the USS Liberty Memorial site: [b]During the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the American intelligence ship USS Liberty was attacked for [u]75 minutes[/u] in international waters by Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats. Thirty-four men died and 172 were wounded.[/b] Like most things concerning this particular dark period in US-Israeli relations, there is very little regard for the truth in this matter. [b]Hannah_Reitsch[/b], you have consistently said that the attack lasted [b]6 hours[/b]. Can you give us any explanation for this [b]6 hour[/b] time period? Quote from [b]Paul[/b] -
The only question that remains is why they deliberately attacked a US ship in international waters.
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[b]No, Sir, no, Sir.[/b] The [u]only[/u] question that remains is for those of you who believe the attack to have been deliberate, why would Israel deliberately attack a US ship in international waters? I am totally satisfied that the attack was a grave error, and my position is backed up by ten separate investigations by the US and Israel. Period. The 'ball is in your court' to prove otherwise! Post from markl32 -
Did the Liberty even return fire? If not than how can you attack a ship that's not returning fire for six hours?
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Yes, there was .50 cal fire from two of the USS Liberty's stations at the Israeli torpedo boats, after the CO had ordered a cease fire. This from the CO's testimony before the Board of Inquiry conducted [u]immediately[/u] [u]after[/u] the attack! And again, it was not a [b]6 hour[/b] attack, but one that lasted, altogether, less than 75 minutes, from the initial air attacks to the torpedo boat attacks. Post from marsh -
As I was led to understand, two or three days after the actual incident, the Liberty was there to relay information on Israeli troop movements to the Egyptian military intelligence Hq. at the request of the US State Dept. and Chevron Inc. formerly known as Standard Oil Company of Calif.
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That is an explanation that has currency only among those who believe in the Bilderbergers and the Rothschilds running the planet. [b]If[/b] it were true it would be adequate enough reason to justify the Israeli attack!But it isn't. The USS Liberty was where it was on June 8, 1967, by accident. It was already sent orders to clear the area, but the orders failed to reach it. That is why the Israelis were convinced that the USS Liberty was [u]not[/u] an American ship; they were told over and over by the US that no American ships were within 100 miles of the coast! It was originally sent there to obtain intel on Soviet bombers that were being used by Egypt and whether or not Soviet airmen were actually flying the planes for the Egyptians! It turns out they were, but [u]that[/u] story got lost in the tragedy of the whole affair. - continued -
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 5:21:26 AM EDT
Post from Dugster -
The ship was probably attacked because it intercepted communication that was contradictory too what Israel was telling the United States at the time and Israel did not want the electronic warfare ship in range to intercept anymore communication.
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'Probably' is not a very useful word to use in describing anything concerning this incident. There is simply nothing that the Israelis were doing in the Sinai, in the Golan Heights, or anywhere else in the combat zone of the Six Day War that: 1. was [u]not[/u] known by the United States; and 2. was [u]not[/u] approved of, or acquiesced in, by the United States. And [u]that[/u], ladies and gentlemen, is a fact! The United States' Ambassador to the UN even delayed a crucial meeting of the UN Security Council that was to call for a cease fire, [u]until[/u] the US was informed by Israel that it had captured everything it wanted in the Golan Heights from Syria! And [u]that[/u], ladies and gentlemen, is a fact! If there was any chicanery involved, it was the collusion of the United States and Israel in making certain that Israel's victory over its arch-enemies was total and irreversible! Post from PSG1 -
It is obvious that anyone who questions Israel in the USS Liberty incident does so purely for anti semetic reasons, including the JEWISH members of the crew of the USS Liberty who have made identical accusations against the state of Israel.
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No Sir, not at all. Even the leftist Israeli politicians debate the USS Liberty case, as a means of giving the Meir government a black eye. But it is obvious that a lot of the rancor over the USS Liberty may be animated by anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli sentiment! How many threads have we had on the USS Stark? The USS Cole? How many threads on the Malmedy Massacre during the Battle of the Bulge? The Bataan Death March? And don't say that those last two are not discussed simply because they occurred during a war, because the perpetrators were acting outside the accepted limits of war, and were treated as criminals after the war. But those atrocities, and thousands others like them, are for the most part totally ignored! Is the United States to be judged on its conduct of the War in Vietnam solely by what happened at My Lai? Is our War on Terrorism in Afghanistan to be judged simply by the mishaps of shooting up a meeting of tribal allied elders, or blitzing a wedding party? I hope not. There will never be another investigation of the USS Liberty attack. You may sign all the petitions that you want, but it is pointless. And why is it pointless? Because no sane person can come up with an answer to explain why little ol' Israel would risk utter destruction and the immediate loss of their hard won victory by purposefully attacking a warship of a superpower on the high seas! The facts are already in, no more testimonies need be taken. Simply read the testimony of the CO that was taken immediately after the attack, and learn that even he believed that the attack was a mistake! [b]Everything else is scuttlebutt![/b] Eric The(Historical)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 5:21:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2002 5:41:15 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
I find the language used in descibing the attack to be a bit odd. [b]"hideously wounded" "savage" "brutal"[/b] etc. You never hear other accounts of modern AIR ATTACKS described with such visceral language. Nor do you hear the actual eye-witnesses (or victims, as their supporters describe them)use these terms. Only their supporters. No one speaks of the USS Cole in these terms, nor do they speak this way in describing the attack on the USS Stark. Only the Liberty evokes such florrid, descriptive terms and emotions. Must be something about Israel....
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 5:30:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2002 5:30:39 AM EDT by Scipio]
Its about time someone lit a fire under the ass of logic... Reinforcements have arrived...situation well in hand. PRK... If 9DivDocs picture post doesn't give you the answer you seek regarding Hannah, nothing will...besides...she posted a reply and didn't even respond to the accuasations. Sometimes silence is acceptance...
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 5:45:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Hannah_Reitsch, you have consistently said that the attack lasted 6 hours. Can you give us any explanation for this 6 hour time period?
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The six hour time period covers the multiple reconaissance overflights by Israeli warplanes, the rocket attacks by Israeli warplanes, the napalm attacks from Israeli warplanes, the torpedo runs by Israeli naval assets and the machinegun runs by Israeli naval assets.
No, Sir, no, Sir. The only question that remains is for those of you who believe the attack to have been deliberate, why would Israel deliberately attack a US ship in international waters?
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Here's an interesting theory:
Originally Posted By PaoloAR15: One question: If a Israeli (British, French, Australian, German and so on) ship was spying US Army communication during Gulf War and passing those information to Saddam Hussein, should US Armed forces stop it with any mean or not?
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How many threads have we had on the USS Stark? The USS Cole? How many threads on the Malmedy Massacre during the Battle of the Bulge? The Bataan Death March?
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I know I've brought up the Cole several times myself, as well as the Bataan Death March. Regardless, there are no Iraqi partisans here that are able to conceive of no treachery on the part of the Iraqis and inundating us with propaganda on their behalf. There is no al-Qaeda cheering section here that bends over backwards to justify what was obviously a terrorist attack on the Cole. There is no one here trying to justify the horrors that the Japanese inflicted on American prisoners of war on Bataan. And no on is attempting to justify or whitewash the actions of the Waffen SS in Malmedy, or call it an accident, that the Nazis didn't [i][b]really mean[/b][/i] to murder all those US troops.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 5:47:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2002 5:51:19 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
This was the USS Liberty: [img]gidusko.50megs.com/agtr5/agtr5.gif[/img] 455 feet long, 10,680 tons displacement Newly painted US Navy “Haze Gray” with brand new white “GTR-5” in white on the hull. This is what the Israelis claim they thought they were attacking: The Egyptian horse carrier El Quseir: [img]ussliberty.org/g/elquseir.gif[/img] 275 feet long, 2,640 tons displacement Any word games about why the Liberty was where it was are just that, and only serve the purposes of those who would like to draw attention away from the facts.
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