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Posted: 6/30/2002 11:02:30 PM EDT
aka the Draft. I know that if the implement the draft, and I'm drafted, will NOT serve. I wil NOT be a member of the American Imperial Military. I will not oppress other people. I will NOT be unconstitutionally kidnapped. from [url]http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/draft.html[/url] --- Conservatives for Kidnapping by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. The guardians of ordered liberty and traditional values over at National Review are pushing a solution to all our problems: the draft, or, as they say in the private sector, kidnapping. Or, if not the draft, the magazine is pushing steps in that direction, as many steps as the state can get away with. William F. Buckley, of course, has long favored peacetime national service, as he demonstrated with his 1974 book, Four Reforms, and again in his 1990 book Gratitude. He may not have contemplated sending these kids off to their deaths, but rather that they serve in some sort of "conservative" social movement centered on civic loyalty and patriotism.  But once the imperial state owns people, what else do you expect it to do with them but send them to their deaths? The state acts as a kind of anti-parent: to the same extent that moms and dads love and care for their children, protecting them from harm, the state is careless with other people’s kids, caring only about the public-opinion consequences of body bags. In wartime, the gloss of civic duty and patriotism has been stripped away. Stanley Kurtz, writing for the online edition of National Review, doubts that we are militarily prepared for a full-scale war on Iraq. Given the likely casualties, he says, we need a draft that "can provide us with combat replacements." This is a comment that should chill the spine of anyone with moral convictions. Just to make sure we understand, let’s spell it out. Kurtz, writing from his comfortable chair at the Hoover Institution in lovely Stanford, California, is urging an invasion of a country that has already been reduced to pre-modern living standards by a twelve-year US war, and he is fully willing to contemplate that this will likely mean sending many American troops to their deaths. Kurtz’s plan for dealing with the massive loss of life is to forcibly drag other Americans out of the workplaces and schools of their choosing and send them to their deaths in a far-flung country as slaves of the US military empire, all in an effort to impose ever-more suffering and death on Iraq. A more ghastly public policy is hard to imagine, short of all-out nuclear war. National Review conservatives like to posture as guardians of virtue and manners, but when it comes right down to it, what these people are pushing is morally reprehensible and uncivilized. And they have the gall to decry libertarianism as morally lax? Maybe we should start using the word "combat replacements" more broadly. "How many combat replacements do you newlyweds hope to have?" "This education bill insures that no combat replacement will be left behind." Now, Kurtz is aware that the draft would meet with political resistance. So he has some suggested half-measures too. He wants people to join the ROTC, a kind of young-pioneers training camp for the military state. In fact, he wants Junior ROTC groups imposed on every public high school, on pain of federal sanctions. "Growth in JROTC and ROTC might solve much of our manpower needs, and do it with volunteers (sic.)."
Link Posted: 6/30/2002 11:04:14 PM EDT
Yes, this might be resisted, he admits, because we have all become corrupted "in the wake of Vietnam and the sixties." He then informs us that to purge people of such corruption is the real point of the conservative "culture war." "So in the end, the real war and the culture war are the same war." That’s interesting to know. In the 1980s and 1990s, many regular Americans thought that joining the conservative’s culture war meant being against teen sex, rap music, abortion, and family disintegration. They believed that conservatives were fighting the influence of secularism and humanism in the culture. Now, it turns out, according to Kurtz, that there is only one real purpose of the cultural war against the legacy of sixties: to make parents more willing to part with their offspring as fodder in the war on terrorism. Kurtz is hardly alone in his views. There is a faction of the right that is trying to whip up a kind of pro-draft movement. My fans over at Americans For Victory Over Terrorism (chairman William Bennett attacked me by name at the group's first press conference) have released a survey on the draft. They asked college kids what they thought about having military service forced on them. The results of the AVOT poll: 37 percent of students said they would evade; 35 percent said they would love it, even it meant being stationed in Beirut; and 21 percent said they would serve but only within US borders. This last group is puzzling: a government that steals your college years to enslave you in the service of its imperial military ambitions is not going to concern itself about where you want to do so. Why was AVOT conducting a survey? To judge whether compulsory military service is feasible. They probably were not very encouraged by the results of their survey. In fact, they probably see resistance to the draft as a sign of cultural decline. Actually, it’s the opposite. Those who are willing to tell pollsters that they would defy the state rather than be coerced to fight its wars are examples of the true American spirit. That 37 percent of students are willing to tell a pollster so demonstrates that not all is lost. We shouldn’t be surprised at the vogue of the draft on the right. The problem with the post-World War II right is that its devotion to the idea of freedom has been more rhetorical than substantive. They have favored a planned military economy while decrying the planned economy generally. They have pushed for an imperial foreign policy while believing in small government at home. They want wars and more wars that kill kids and take them away from families, but also favor family values. In the end, they have to make a choice between freedom and the state. They choose the state. That these people are now calling for making slaves out of young workers and students so they can be forced to fight unnecessary wars abroad, is merely the next step in a long ideological decline. Freedom is threatened as much by these people as by any leftwing socialist. June 25, 2002 Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. [send him mail], is president of the Ludwig von Mises Institute in Auburn, Alabama, and editor of LewRockwell.com. Copyright © 2002 LewRockwell.com Lew Rockwell Archives
Link Posted: 6/30/2002 11:15:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/30/2002 11:15:58 PM EDT by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 6/30/2002 11:25:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: aka the Draft. I know that if the implement the draft, and I'm drafted, will NOT serve. I wil NOT be a member of the American Imperial Military. I will not oppress other people. I will NOT be unconstitutionally kidnapped.
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Good, and maybe while you're in jail we'll get a break from the endless, and mindless, Libertarian propaganda you dump on us like dropping from a bird's ass.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 5:43:19 AM EDT
More banal bullshit from Lew Rockwell's site...what a big surprise. Not.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 7:25:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2002 7:26:47 AM EDT by USNA91]
Originally Posted By RikWriter: More banal bullshit from Lew Rockwell's site...what a big surprise. Not.
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It's a shame, too. Some of the things Libertarians stand for are right on the money... Edited to add: The topic in question is [b]not[/b] one of them, BTW...
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 9:09:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By USNA91: It's a shame, too. Some of the things Libertarians stand for are right on the money...
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Very true. Before 9-11, I would have called myself a small-L libertarian because I support the legalization or at least decriminalization of drugs and prostitution, less government interference with business and of course no restrictive gun laws. But big-L Libertarians are totally screwed in the head when it comes to foreign policy. What will work INSIDE a nation WILL NOT necessarily work BETWEEN nations.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 9:18:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: Not everything is unconstitutional, just because you don't like it. Just say you don't like it, instead of hiding behind the Constitution, in a fallacious assumption that those who you are yelling at in a frothy mania won't be able to rebut you.
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I WOULD like people to argue why the draft is constitutional and why it should be implemented. Instead, as this thread demonstrates, people instead result to name calling and other personal attacks.
Art I, Sec 8: To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
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I don't see anything about FORCING people to fight for the government. Congress can provide for CALLING forth the militia, but not forcing them to serve. And even if they COULD, that would ONLY be to suppress rebellions and enforce federal laws, NOT to fight a war. We have a standing army for that. Now, you might have an argument if you cited this section: "to raise and support armies." I would of course disagree, but that would have been a better argument to make.
Art 2, Sec 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.
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What is the point of this? He is the commander-in-chief. I see no power granted to him to draft citizens. And his power as commander in chief is activated when the military is "called into the actual Service of the United States."; meaning that war is declared, and war can only be declared by Congress. To tell you the truth, I am really surprised that people would force others to fight for them, to drag them away from their families and their lives to fight and die, for ANY reason. Its different when people volunteer. At least you have to have some respect for those who want to fight. But to force unwilling men and/or women? I just don't get it. It really is slavery.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 9:23:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 9:34:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sweep: Didn't Lincoln try to use a draft, but dropped the idea when all hell broke lose?
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both north ans south had conscription. south was first. not favorably received on either side.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 9:47:11 AM EDT
From reading the same articles, it seems pretty clear to me that the draft is constitutional. It also seems pretty clear that you are arguing just because you don't want to be drafted. -legrue
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:20:35 AM EDT
Here's my take on the draft, as I've just been recently registered for it. (Don't you how many of you are still eligible, if you're not eligible for the draft, of course it's easy for you to support it). I would only serve IF I get a guarentee that I will not be sent overseas. Why this restriction? Because I don't trust the government, that's why. I don't like the imperialistic foreign policies that our government have been executing since WWII. It have costed thousands of American lives and squandered our treasury. There's no reason why I should be sent to Iraq to get killed or exposed to their chemical gases and come back dead or disabled. I know many here are very gung-ho about patriotism and sacrifice. But all those romantic notions aside, What is the point of sacrifice if you sacrifice it for some ill conceived operations with no real purpose other than to show that the president can walk the walk as well as talk the talk? I think that's what's so cowardly about our modern presidents. George Washington was a real commander, he lead the troops. What did Bush or Clinton ever do? They don't know the first thing about war, they've never tasted it. This is one of the biggest reasons why I'm not a Republican. They like big government in their hearts, just not a political government, but a military one.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:35:54 AM EDT
That he which hath no stomach to this fight, Let him depart. His passport shall be made And crowns for convoy put into his purse. We would not die in that man's company That fears his fellowship to die with us. This day is called the feast of Crispian. He that outlives this day and comes safe home Will stand a-tiptoe when this day is named And rouse him at the name of Crispian. He that shall see this day and live t'old age And say, "Tomorrow is Saint Crispian." Then will he he strip his sleeve and show his scars And say, "These wound I had on Crispin's day." Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember, with advantages, What feats he did that day. Then shall our names, Familiar in his mouth as household words- Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter, Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Glouster- Be in their flowing cups freshly remembered. This story shall the good man teach his son, And Cripin Crispian shall ne'er go by From this day to the ending of the world But we in it shall be remembered, We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he today that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile, This day shall gentle his condition. And gentlemen in England now abed Shall think themselves accursed they were not here, And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day. --Shakespeare, Henry V Maybe its your duty to serve? Smalls LCpl of Marines
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:41:44 AM EDT
Coward.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:42:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: I WOULD like people to argue why the draft is constitutional and why it should be implemented. Instead, as this thread demonstrates, people instead result to name calling and other personal attacks. .
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And yer surprised by this??? [:D] You haven't been paying attention. [:D] BTW, I disagree with your suppostion about the draft being unConstitutional. CLEARLY, the power to make war is a delegated power of the Congress, and the President. SOMEONE has to fight those wars. And ESPECIALLY in THIS day and age, where people have almost completely and totally lost all vision of their civic duty, the draft is becoming more and more relevant.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:52:54 AM EDT
After once again going over my thoughts about BHD...I can see some of the objections to a draft...ya want us to fight and win or go play patty-cake?
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:55:58 AM EDT
Theoretically voting is also a civic duty. Here's my problem, there are too many old geezers who know they won't be affected by the draft calling for a draft. As for matter of civic duty, how is it my duty to be sent half a world away and kill people that aren't attack us? Bush effectively declared at West Point that he will pre-emptively strike whatever country seems threatening, without having to present his evidence or justify his actions to anyone. And he's going to do it with American troops. Should there be a disaster and he need more men, why, the draft, how convenient. Should we suspend our liberties just because there's a war? Or what if there's no war? but the president decides that we need a war to keep his approval ratings high? If Bush wants a war, he can go fight it himself.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 11:01:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jz02: Theoretically voting is also a civic duty. Here's my problem, there are too many old geezers who know they won't be affected by the draft calling for a draft. As for matter of civic duty, how is it my duty to be sent half a world away and kill people that aren't attack us? Bush effectively declared at West Point that he will pre-emptively strike whatever country seems threatening, without having to present his evidence or justify his actions to anyone. And he's going to do it with American troops. Should there be a disaster and he need more men, why, the draft, how convenient. Should we suspend our liberties just because there's a war? Or what if there's no war? but the president decides that we need a war to keep his approval ratings high? If Bush wants a war, he can go fight it himself.
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THIS is why people need to be more careful who they vote for. The Constitution makes it CLEAR the gov't has a right to fight a war, which necessitates conscripting people to fight it, in some cases. The FACT that people are TOO STUPID to follow thru on their voting civic duty INCREASES the likelihood that they will abused in their OTHER civic duties. Your point is well taken, and there may be NO answer for this question. In short, sans a revolution, our republic is destined to collapse under its own "freedoms / license." ("license" being the abuse of freedom)
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 11:04:25 AM EDT
BTW - I have NO PROBLEM with people refusing to fight in an unjust war. Just turn yourself in to the local authorities, to await trial. Its what I will do, IF EVER conscripted to fight in what I deem an unjust war.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 1:21:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 1:27:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: Show me where I called you a name, and attacked you personally. The only thing I did was characterize your behavior as it appeared to me.
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As prolly the one MOST guilty on this board (at least until recently) of making charachterizations RATHER THAN just addressing the point and substance of the post, I can tell you that charachterizations will END meaningful debate.
You should consider how you come across to others, when you make such posts.
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And myself and those prone to making charachterizations RATHER THAN just addressing the substance of the issue should consider how our charachterizations come across to others. HINT: It appears like an attack. Just some food for thought, from someone who (used to be) as guilty as anyone.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 1:34:22 PM EDT
IMO, the military should be fighting off volunteers when America calls for fighting men. You think our founding fathers wanted to fight? Fuck no! But unlike some of you, THEY HAD BALLS!
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 1:38:21 PM EDT
G-man, Yah, I noticed, bro. You've been positively GENTEEL lately. What happened??? BTW, I'm waiting on that email :) -legrue
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 1:40:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By legrue: G-man, Yah, I noticed, bro. You've been positively GENTEEL lately. What happened???
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I had a good look at myself, and didn't like what I saw.
BTW, I'm waiting on that email :) -legrue
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One of the things I saw was a bad memory. [BD] What have I forgotten????
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 1:47:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2002 1:49:12 PM EDT by legrue]
Originally Posted By garandman: One of the things I saw was a bad memory. [BD] What have I forgotten????
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You were going to email me your original dissertation on homosexuality. BTW, I applaud you personally. Self introspection can be a tough task. legrue <---doing some myself edited because I kant spel
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 1:50:11 PM EDT
You can't fool me Lib. Get over it. Being a good neighbor sometimes means taking up arms in defense of your fellow Americans. Just because you don't understand why we fight doesn't mean it's wrong. I've seen your picture, I've read your posts, I know why you REALLY don't want to serve. HINT: It's the same reason you've never played team sports, or been much of a hit with the ladies. For you, boot camp would be hell.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 1:50:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 3:03:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: And ESPECIALLY in THIS day and age, where people have almost completely and totally lost all vision of their civic duty, the draft is becoming more and more relevant.
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Garandman, I was thinking (a dangerous pasttime, I know) about this and I have a potential problem with this argument. It occurs to me that forcing people to fight when they otherwise would not may have an effect similar to that of the government preventing necessary corrections in the economy. That is, things appear to continue on safely, but in reality things are eating away from the inside out and it will lead to an outcome far worse than what would have happened if things had been left alone. Just a thought...
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 3:58:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By legrue:
Originally Posted By garandman: One of the things I saw was a bad memory. [BD] What have I forgotten????
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You were going to email me your original dissertation on homosexuality.
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Now I remember. I tried, but the e-mail never arrived I guess. I just re-sent it. Let me know (via e-mail) if you don't get my e-mail with attachment. (I sent it to your hotmail addy.)
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:03:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Francisco_dAnconia:
Originally Posted By garandman: And ESPECIALLY in THIS day and age, where people have almost completely and totally lost all vision of their civic duty, the draft is becoming more and more relevant.
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Garandman, I was thinking (a dangerous pasttime, I know) about this and I have a potential problem with this argument. It occurs to me that forcing people to fight when they otherwise would not may have an effect similar to that of the government preventing necessary corrections in the economy. That is, things appear to continue on safely, but in reality things are eating away from the inside out and it will lead to an outcome far worse than what would have happened if things had been left alone. Just a thought...
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Good thought. You show, what I beleive, is an appreciation for a "free market economy" to control - a sort of self-levelling force within gov't. I applaud that. Its solid logic. I just am not sure a free market economy works in an arena that is the polar opposite of the free market - gov't. My GREATER concern was that the draft in the US produces what the Germans had in forcing the Poles to fight for Hitler in WW2 - a sloppy, ill-tempered, ready to surrender fighting force. That said, I still favor the draft. And if conscience won't allow me to fight the war my gov't wants to fight, I turn myself into the local authorities, and tell them I refuse to go.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 11:19:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: Show me where I called you a name, and attacked you personally. The only thing I did was characterize your behavior as it appeared to me.
I'm sorry- I didn't mean to say YOU were the one attacking me. In fact, you were the only one to actually offer a proper defense of the draft instead of yelling "coward"(when I am more brave because I stand for principles.)
Sorry, it was getting late, the coffee didn't have enough caffiene, and my week was almost over. I just skimmed over the Constitution and grabbed the militia clauses. Forgot about the Army one. You made my argument for me - now rebut it. For starters the 13th Amendment prohibits it: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Involuntary servitude sounds a lot like the draft.
Others"? I was about to get all sanctimonious on you, and list the reasons why I think you are wrong. However, I will point this out. People do not like being disturbed from their comfort when they do not see the point. If it gets bad enough, people will not volunteer to help their country. They will abandon it and run to Canada while they bellyache about injustice - and watch OTHER people die on TV. This country would collapse not from an external enemy, but because the mass of it's "patriotic" citizenry are lazy bums who don't want to fight. You are no different.
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I don't want to fight because it is wrong, not because I am lazy. We are not fighting for self-defense, but for empire. If America was being invaded, or under attack, then I would be out the door and sign up immediately. That hasn't happened(and no 9/11 doesn't count.)
Stop wrapping your arguments in the Constitution, and just come out and say that you are attached to the comforts of civilization, and that you recognize that you would have to give that up to fight for your country and what it stands for.
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I would give it up in a minute if I would be fighting for what my country stands for. Problem is the people who are fighting aren't standing up for liberty, but empire.
Oh, one more thing - calling a rebuttal a "personal attack" does not make it so.
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Duh. You gave a rebuttal, others didn't.
Originally Posted By MarineGrunt: IMO, the military should be fighting off volunteers when America calls for fighting men.
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Problem is that WHY America is calling for fighting men. Invasion? Sign me up. Empire building? No way.
You think our founding fathers wanted to fight? Fuck no! But unlike some of you, THEY HAD BALLS!
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Of course they were fight for LIBERTY, not EMPIRE. In fact, they were fighting AGAINST empire.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 11:19:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: You can't fool me Lib. Get over it. Being a good neighbor sometimes means taking up arms in defense of your fellow Americans.
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I agree. I and I would take up arms if I had to defend my fellow Americans. I just don't see that yet. If we were be invaded, by say Mexico(and I mean troops and such), I would sign up the day I heard about. If American was in danger, I would fight. But the current war on terrorism is nothing but empire building. Bush and his administration have said that they can't stop the terror attacks, so what is the point of fighting something that has nothing to DO with the terror attacks?
Just because you don't understand why we fight doesn't mean it's wrong.
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Oh, I understand, which is why I'm opposed to it
I've seen your picture, I've read your posts, I know why you REALLY don't want to serve. HINT: It's the same reason you've never played team sports, or been much of a hit with the ladies.
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*Cough*Personal attack*cough.
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: However, it occurs to me (it should have earlier) that this was a successful attempt at trolling, and Liberty got almost the response he was looking for.
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This is absolutely not a trolling exercise. I wanted to debate this.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 11:29:19 PM EDT
War on terror = empire building? Gimme a fuckin' break.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 11:31:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 3:45:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2002 3:52:48 AM EDT by LARRYG]
Originally Posted By libertyof76: aka the Draft. I know that if the implement the draft, and I'm drafted, will NOT serve. I wil NOT be a member of the American Imperial Military. I will not oppress other people. I will NOT be unconstitutionally kidnapped.
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Gee, another Bill Clinton. Anyone else notice how Libby sounds a lot like DU. 'Imperial Army' my ass.
The results of the AVOT poll: 37 percent of students said they would evade; 35 percent said they would love it, even it meant being stationed in Beirut; and 21 percent said they would serve but only within US borders. This last group is puzzling: a government that steals your college years to enslave you in the service of its imperial military ambitions is not going to concern itself about where you want to do so.
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Duh, ever heard of a college deferment? That's where most officers come from, college grads, you know. What a DU. It also looks like the majority would be willing to serve. Only 37 percent feel that they should enjoy the freedoms of our country with no obligation to help protect them. Only 37 percent are cowards.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 4:03:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: I WOULD like people to argue why the draft is constitutional and why it should be implemented. Instead, as this thread demonstrates, people instead result to name calling and other personal attacks.
Art I, Sec 8: To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
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I don't see anything about FORCING people to fight for the government. Congress can provide for CALLING forth the militia, but not forcing them to serve. And even if they COULD, that would ONLY be to suppress rebellions and enforce federal laws, NOT to fight a war. We have a standing army for that. Now, you might have an argument if you cited this section: "to raise and support armies." I would of course disagree, but that would have been a better argument to make.
Art 2, Sec 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.
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What is the point of this? He is the commander-in-chief. I see no power granted to him to draft citizens. And his power as commander in chief is activated when the military is "called into the actual Service of the United States."; meaning that war is declared, and war can only be declared by Congress. To tell you the truth, I am really surprised that people would force others to fight for them, to drag them away from their families and their lives to fight and die, for ANY reason. Its different when people volunteer. At least you have to have some respect for those who want to fight. But to force unwilling men and/or women? I just don't get it. It really is slavery.
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What the hell is the difference between calling forth the militia and forcing them to serve? All of us state, and make a very big deal about it as part of our right to bear arms, that every able bodied man is part of the militia. That seems to right along with Article I, Section 8 that you quote. Or are you only a member of the militia when it suits you? Your whining sounds hypocritical to me. You bring up ridiculous subjects, make ridiculous statements, try to pretend you are some kind of intellect and Constitutional scholar, and wonder why people resort to name calling? You deserve it!
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 4:12:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By legrue: From reading the same articles, it seems pretty clear to me that the draft is constitutional. It also seems pretty clear that you are arguing just because you don't want to be drafted. -legrue
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Damn, we agreed on something. I am going to have to mark this down. Now, get out of the left lane[:D] I also agree with garandman on the same post:
BTW, I disagree with your suppostion about the draft being unConstitutional. CLEARLY, the power to make war is a delegated power of the Congress, and the President. SOMEONE has to fight those wars. And ESPECIALLY in THIS day and age, where people have almost completely and totally lost all vision of their civic duty, the draft is becoming more and more relevant.
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Holy cow, in agreement with both of you on one subject. Uh oh, something really bad must be about to happen.[:D]
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 4:23:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jz02: Theoretically voting is also a civic duty. Here's my problem, there are too many old geezers who know they won't be affected by the draft calling for a draft.
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Most of us 'old geezers'have already served, many during a time when it was very unpopular and many in a very unpopular war, only to come home and be spit at by people like you.
As for matter of civic duty, how is it my duty to be sent half a world away and kill people that aren't attack us? Bush effectively declared at West Point that he will pre-emptively strike whatever country seems threatening, without having to present his evidence or justify his actions to anyone. And he's going to do it with American troops.
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That's right, let's not be preeemptive. Let's wait until they hit us again and kill 2900 more people. We have always been preemptive, that's why until now we have never been attacked on our own soil.
Should there be a disaster and he need more men, why, the draft, how convenient. Should we suspend our liberties just because there's a war? Or what if there's no war? but the president decides that we need a war to keep his approval ratings high? If Bush wants a war, he can go fight it himself.
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Is that you Cynthia Mckinney. The president wants a war to boost his approval ratings????????? And you wonder why there is name calling at times. Are you and infiltrator from DU? Being drafted is not suspending our liberties. It is allowed for in the Constitution. This type of rhetoric sounds just like Bill Clinton and his ilk who called service personnel names and demonstrated against us. From your earlier post:
I would only serve IF I get a guarentee that I will not be sent overseas. Why this restriction? Because I don't trust the government, that's why. I don't like the imperialistic foreign policies that our government have been executing since WWII. It have costed thousands of American lives and squandered our treasury. There's no reason why I should be sent to Iraq to get killed or exposed to their chemical gases and come back dead or disabled.
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There's that word 'imperial' again. Are you and Libby the same person or do you just hang out together at DU? If you are going to post psuedo-intellectual crap and try to seem intelligent, at least learn to use the correct words. 'it have costed thousands' would be 'it has cost thousands'.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 4:41:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: To tell you the truth, I am really surprised that people would force others to fight for them, to drag them away from their families and their lives to fight and die, for ANY reason. Its different when people volunteer. At least you have to have some respect for those who want to fight. But to force unwilling men and/or women? I just don't get it. It really is slavery.
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To tell YOU the truth, I'm surprised that someone on this board would NOT fight for this country. You seriously sound like a sniveling little bitch who would only take what this country has to offer without ever returning the favor through standing in her "imperial" army. [rolleyes] Who in these modern times REALLY wants to leave their families and loved ones in time of war? Rationalize this one for me, I'd love to take down whatever logic you think you have. In this country, where the majority of its citizens are complacent with everything, why would they want to fight? This isn't 1943 anymore, people don't have the patriotic calling that once existed. If called, I would go and fight. Keep in mind I have my BA and JD degrees and I'm no 18 year old. I have a girlfriend of 8 years and a dog, but does that mean I wouldn't go and fight for US? No, mainly because my dog and GF need me to protect them. IF the draft were to be reimplemented (which I believe we should have universal service at age 18 or after HS), I believe this country would have more solidarity. The brotherhood of the armed services might, JUST MIGHT create better class and race relations as a side effect. Whether the war is something you believe in (or in which you have financial interests) or not, it doesn't matter. What Garandman said is correct, if you don't like the politician's policies, VOTE SOMEONE ELSE. Don't bitch because they're trying to prevent some crack head from bombing our country from 5000 miles away. If any of us were called, I would hope we'd have the sack to perform our patriotic DUTIES as set forth in the Constitution. Slavery??!! You think being required in a time of war to fight for your country is slavery? Now that was a good one to start my day!
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