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Posted: 6/26/2002 5:42:45 PM EDT
I have been hearing things from this guy for many years regarding his research into biblical prophecy, much of it has come to pass. He was on some radio show the other day and mentioned that there is NO mention of a entity resembling the U.S. being involved in the battle of Armaggeddon. In the end there are only 3 factions: a European Union type power being controlled from Rome, a Muslim power that included the Russians and finally an Asian power. He believes that the U.S. will either cease to exist entirely or will be knocked out of world power status by a catastrophic event. Garandman, any opinion on Lindsey's writings? I am not into bible stuff, but it is very interesting.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 5:53:22 PM EDT
Imbrog - Isn't that the guy that wrote "The Late Great Planet Earth?". You could probably find that book, paperback and not very big, and learn a lot from it. I read it many years ago. Don't know how much closer we've come to destruction since then. Seems like we'er getting nickle and dimed to death.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 5:53:24 PM EDT
Or, [b]Imbroglio[/b], the United States may not play much of a role in Armageddon simply because a large number of our citizenry has been raptured by Christ beforehand! Now, I don't necessarily believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I know that Hal Lindsey believes in a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture of the Church. But Hal Lindsey is one of my favorite end-times theologians, or writers. What do you think, [b]garandman[/b]? Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 5:59:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2002 6:05:53 PM EDT by GodBlessTexas]
He's right, there is no mention of us specifically in Revelations or the other armageddon related texts, though that doesn't necessarily mean we're not around at the time of Armageddon. Then again, I can't imagine the US being around and having the capability to be a part of the battle and not taking part in it. So, I think it's not too terribly off base to think that the US may no longer be a world superpower or suffer some horribly crippling event that knocks us off our high horse. Given todays current events, is it not possible that the US could be knocked out of world power status? Our economy is currently in shambles and we're facing an enemy that could potentially cause even more severe economic harm. A dirty nuke would likely cause more economic problems in the US than illness or death. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 6:15:50 PM EDT
I too have not found any reference in Bible Prophecy regarding the U.S. Maybe it's because the Liberals work so hard to remove any mention of GOD from our society [V]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 6:21:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 6:25:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2002 6:28:22 PM EDT by BusMaster007]
Hal Lindsey was one of the first authors I read discussing prophecy. After a couple of his books, I began reading other things, and eventually came to hold Dr. Walter Martin, The Bible Answer Man, as my mentor. I got to see him once. Hank Hanegraaff took over when Martin died. I got to see Hank once, too. The Bible Answer Man is a radio program that I've listened to for years, and is from the Christian Reasearch Institute in California. [url]http://www.equip.org/[/url] They have a website and are a great resource. Both of the men that have or are running CRI are learned scholars. No kidding. The real deal. I'm not sure what Lindsey's credentials are, but, he was largely responsible for me getting the 'big picture' of a Spiritual War going on. I'm grateful to Hal Lindsey for that!
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 6:36:51 PM EDT
Hal LIndsey comes from a Dispensational viewpoint in his Scriptural interpretation. So I have a number of disagreements with his fundamental orientation of Scriptural interpretation. (WHich means he aslo has a few disagreemtns with mine [:D] ) I'm Covenantal, and can explain the difference in Dispenasational vs. Covenantal via email. Fire me one, and I'll give ya the readers digest version. Admittedly, my eyes glaze over when people start talking "end times." My mind works ONLY on concrete subjects (and sometimes not even too well there [BD] ) and the ONE clear indication I get from Scripture is that God did not reveal enuf of it to us to make some of the outlandish assertions (my opinion) Mr. Lindsey makes. In my estimation, there are MORE THAN ENUF clear and direct commnads from Scripture that I need to work on WITHOUT me speculating about that which God INTENDS to remain a mystery UNTIL it actually happens. In short, Mr Lindsey is, to me, that most dreaded of all Holiday gifts - the fruitcake. [}:D]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 6:50:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2002 6:52:44 PM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:06:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2002 7:08:58 PM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/ostr.gif[/img] To ignore that part of scripture that you have mis interpreted and chose to ignore any other possibility is like putting your head in the sand.
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As I said before, you gotts teh kewlest icons!!! I don't know where you get the idea I "ignore" any part of Scripture. All I said is I'm not particularly gifted in those areas of LIMITED revelation, and choose rather to make the CLEAR COMPLETE revelations my focus. As I said, Scripture IS clear that God DOES NOT intend for us to know everything now. In my estimation,today, God, in His sovereignty wants His children to trust Him for the future , but in His love gave us enuf revelation that WHEN those Revelation events occur, we'll be able to read teh book, SEE that God foretold it, and KNOW for sure that God is in control. To me, the wisdom of speculating about Revelation is addressed WITHIN the book of Revealtion - [i]Revelation 22 18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds [b]anything[/b] to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. [/i] Seems to me, God is pretty clearly saying "Don't mess." So I don't mess. Or speculate. Unless teh speculator is 100% correct in his specualtion (impossible, never happen) he WIIL either be adding to, or taking away from the APostle John's writings. And thank you very much, but I DO NOT want what teh Scripture foretells for those guilty of that. Good discussion, but I gotta go to bed. Catch ya tomorrow, to see how my fan club filets me for this one. [:D]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:29:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2002 7:30:31 PM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:42:58 PM EDT
Hmmmm, there is one Book in the New Testament that is the final testimony of Jesus Christ concerning the end of the present age, and it is, of course, the Book of the Revelation. Some folks call it the Revelation of John, or the Revelation of Saint John, but the Book calls itself, [b]the Revelation of Jesus Christ.[/b] Forty-six times in the Book of Revelation, the words 'hear', 'hearing', 'heareth' or 'heard' are used, [b]ten[/b] times by Christ Himself! As a matter of fact, Christ says in the very first chapter of His Revelation: 18 [red][b]I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.[/red] 19 [red]Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;[/red][/b] He commands John to write down everything, and He does it for the simple reason that He wants His church to hear and understand what He is saying the these churches, and what is to come in the end of time. He concludes His Revelation with this ominous warning: 16 [red][b]I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.[/red] 17 [red]And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.[/red] 18 [red]For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:[/red] 19 [red]And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.[/red][/b] Which should tell you that 'once saved always saved' is not a doctrine that He espoused! Read the Book, understand His Revelation, and be faithful to be found watching at the end of the present age. Eric The(Eschatological)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 9:20:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rainman: Imbrog - Isn't that the guy that wrote "The Late Great Planet Earth?".
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Ya I think that was the book he mentioned. Aparently 35 million copies of it has been sold since it was first published.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 4:17:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: As a matter of fact, Christ says in the very first chapter of His Revelation: 18 [red][b]I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.[/red] 19 [red]Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;[/red][/b] He commands John to write down everything, and He does it for the simple reason that He wants His church to hear and understand what He is saying the these churches, and what is to come in the end of time.
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Admittedly minutia - God DOES want all to HEAR what He says in Revelation. I think it a minor overstep to say that God also wants us to "understand" (if by that you mean understand FULLY, or even MOSTLY) at least based on the verses above, especially given: [i]Matthew 24 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 [b]But of that day and hour knoweth [u] no man[/u], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.[/b][/i] And as you well statein your post above, that is indeed an ominous warning. As there is NO WAY to speculate about Revelation without either adding to the book, or taking away from it, I CHOOSE to NOT speculate about it, but DO advance the clear teachings in the Book of Revelation - there is a Heaven, there IS a hell, you WILL end up in one or the other, and ONLY thru Christ Jesus is one allowed entrance to Heaven. The rest of the book (which is NOT fully revealed to us) exists, in my opinion, so that we'll know whats happenning [b]WHEN[/b] it happens, and Christians will have a peaceful confidence while the world is literally crumbling around us.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 4:48:49 AM EDT
The Lord wants us to be watching for His return: [b]Luke 12[/b] 36 [red][b]And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.[/red] 37 [red][u]Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching[/u]: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and [u]will come forth and serve them[/u].[/red] 38 [red]And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, [u]and find them so, blessed are those servants[/u].[/b][/red] The Lord says [b]He[/b] will serve those who He finds watching for His return! And St. Paul says, concerning the Day of the Lord: [b]1 Thessalonians, Chapter 5[/b] 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. So, St. Paul asks us not to slumber, but to be faithful to keep watch for His return! I think that these commandments require that we read the Bible carefully so as to discern the season, not the day or hour, of the Lord's return. Eric The(FaithfullyWatching)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 4:50:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: The Lord wants us to be watching for His return: Eric The(FaithfullyWatching)Hun[>]:)]
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Amen!!! Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:03:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: The Lord wants us to be watching for His return: Eric The(FaithfullyWatching)Hun[>]:)]
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Amen!!! Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus.
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I wish he would come back ASAP. I would like to ask him if Chen and his family made it. garandman, EricTheHun You guy rock, Thanks for sharing. [:D]
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:12:57 AM EDT
Didn't Nastradomus predict the U.S (specifically by referring to the 'New Cities') and a great Moslem power would be engaged in the 'Great Apocoliptic War' by 1994? I choose not to blieve in these prophecoes because of how the prophecizer tries to cover up his trail. Like how Nastradomus said that man could change his future to avoid Armaggedon. I for one believe that the future is unalterable because it is the future. How can you change something that hasn't happened? GodBlessTexas, I doubt that the U.S. will lose 'superpower status' anytime in this century or the next. Sure, our economy may not be at its strongest point, but remember, the condition of our economy directly affects that of hundreds of other economies around the world. Seems to me that makes for one hell of a lot of allies. But what do I know? Maybe I'm just a Godless heathen bastard.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:24:58 AM EDT
I am not the sharpest pencil in the box, but I do like Hal Lindsey. To stir up the stuff more I also like John Hagee. [smoke]
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:54:01 AM EDT
All I know for sure is that Jesus is coming back. J. Dwight Pentecost is also a good eschatology (end times) theologian. If I'm not mistaken he and Hal Lindsey were roomates at Dallas Theological Seminary.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 6:17:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 6:18:32 AM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 6:20:07 AM EDT
Covenant vs Dispensational Theology at a glance [url]http://biblefacts.org/history/dchart.html[/url]
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 6:27:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MournSword: Doesn't matter... We are all going to burn in hell for having black rifles..... MournSword
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Will the ones with SEVERAL black rifles burn hotter than those with only one???? [:D]
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 6:31:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 6:34:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 6:41:17 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Covenant vs Dispensational Theology at a glance [url]http://biblefacts.org/history/dchart.html[/url]
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div - VERY good summation. I'm gonna borrow it, for someone who asked for a summation of the differences. Interstingly, my analysis of your position on Israel puts you in the Dispensational camp, and this link does NOT put a very flattering view on Dispensationalism. Also, I'll differ with the summation re: the millennium. While Covenantal, I hold to a literal millennium. Tho I wouldn't argue the point. I just don't think Scripture gives us license to treat Christ's thousand year reign as anything other than literal. [edited toadd...] Where the summation falls down is the category "The relationship between Israel and the church." (More correctly where the Covenantal position is wrongly described) The "church" is NOT Israel, scripturally. (The church had only been around since Pentecost)Israel represents all men and all women of all time of all ethnicities (Jew and Gentile) that have placed faith in Chrsit for salvation, whether during Old testament times, looking forward to Christ, or in New Testament times, looking back to Christ's atoning work on the cross.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 6:58:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Covenant vs Dispensational Theology at a glance [url]http://biblefacts.org/history/dchart.html[/url]
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Well, according to these definitions, I'm in neither camp, fully, it appears. So the Truth must lie somewhere in between. I can see some truth in both sides. 'But I would have nothing known among you, but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified!' - St Paul. Eric The(ItIsSufficient)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 7:13:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 7:13:50 AM EDT by BusMaster007]
Like ETH says, being in neither camp, fully, is where a lot us of find ourselves. In the end, we'll all be in the same place. There, we'll have plenty to talk about! Meanwhile, we search. I can't imagine a better bunch of people to search with than this group at AR15.com.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 7:20:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BusMaster007: I can't imagine a better bunch of people to search with than this group at AR15.com.
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[beer].. but not while...[50] [:D] Well said, sir.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 8:12:34 AM EDT
There's a good article that addresses this topic, "[url=http://www.nativityukr.org/various_files/Waiting_for_the_Rapture.html]Waiting to Be Raptured: Dispensationalist Thought in America[/url]" by Carl E. Olson. I don't agree with 100% of what he says, partially because he is specifically addressing the Catholic response to dispensationalism, but he makes some very good points that are relevant to this discussion. I'll quote a few of them here.
...Most people, regardless of denomination or church affiliation, are unfamiliar with the term "dispensationalism." Yet it is the common source for those groups who believe in the Rapture, the seven year Tribulation and the literal thousand year reign of Christ. Dispensational assumptions permeate much of American Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism and have shaped conservative American Protestant views of "church" and "organized Christianity" to an enormous degree. Dispensational methods of Scriptural interpretation have also greatly influenced conservative Protestantism over the past century, leaving an indelible mark on literally millions of American Protestants. Most people who hold dispensational beliefs aren't not familiar with the history of those premises, assuming they are based in the Bible and have ancient roots. But dispensationalism is actually a rather recent arrival, having been around less than 200 years. The acknowledged father of dispensationalism is John Nelson Darby, an Irish lawyer who left his successful practice to become an Anglican priest. Born in 1800, Darby was a contemporary of John Henry Newman, the famous leader of the Oxford Movement in the 1830s who would later become Catholic and eventually a cardinal. While Newman's studies of Scripture and history led him to the Catholic Church, Darby's studies of Scripture, coupled with a disenchantment with mainstream Christian churches, led him to develop the idea of a "true" church and the apostasy of the established churches - especially the Catholic Church. He believed this true church was spiritual in character and should have no involvement in earthly affairs. He wrote that "that the church is properly heavenly, in its calling and relationship with Christ, forming no part of the course of events of the earth, which makes the rapture so simple and clear . . . Our [Christians'] calling is on high. Events are on earth." [1] In 1827 Darby left the Anglican priesthood and by 1831 was among the leaders of the Plymouth Brethren, a "non-denominational" movement which denounced mainline Christianity. He began to teach that the true church would need to be removed from the earth in order to make way for the completion of God's dealings with the Jews. He named this secret removal of the church the Rapture. This belief was something completely new in Christianity. No previous Christian, Catholic and Protestant alike, had ever proposed or taught about such an event. Darby, in keeping with the millennarianism so popular in Britian at that time, created a timeline which broke history into "dispensations," either six or seven in number. These indicated various ages in which God dealt with humans in distinct ways...
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Link Posted: 6/27/2002 8:13:26 AM EDT
He goes on to talk about Scofield and Ryrie, and then to Hal Lindsey:
Anticipation of the Rapture and the beginning of the end grew in the 1940s and 50s. And the upheaval of the late 1960s and early 1970s presented a great opportunity for someone with a skill for popular writing and a background in the dispensationalist focus on "end times." That someone was Hal Lindsey, a former Dallas Theological Seminary student. Beginning in the early 1970s Lindsey published a series of books, including The Late Great Planet Earth, Satan is Alive and Well and There's a New World Coming. These books contained his version of soon to occur apocalyptic events as seen through the lens of a popularized dispensationalism. Although some dispensationalists were not entirely supportive of Lindsey, his books would prove to be among the biggest selling books of the decade (selling some 35 million copies) and among the most influential as well. Lindsey used a canny mix of paranoia, current events, selective use of Scripture and a sci-fi style to convey his vision of impending doom. Lindsey claimed that many Biblical prophecies were being fulfilled right before our eyes: the restoration of Israel as a nation, the "apostasy" of mainline churches, the complete collapse of morality and the frightening realities of the Cold War. He interpreted the destructive visions of The Book of Revelation as scenes of nuclear war. Unlike dispensationalists of the past, Lindsey did not locate the Whore of Babylon in the Catholic Church; it was instead a global network of New Age religions consolidated under the AntiChrist. Lindsey stayed true to the Darbyite view of "church" and emphasized the non-denominational character of "real" Christianity. He claimed that the word church referred to a "group of people that is called together for some special purpose . . . Sometimes it refers to all true believers in Jesus Christ. It doesn't make any difference what religious 'brand' they're under as long as they're in a living union with Christ through a personal faith in Him as their Saviour." [9] Any understanding of the Church as the family of God, with a visible presence and structure, is ignored or rejected, replaced with the individualistic and subjective stance so common in Fundamentalism. The 1970s and 80s witnessed a huge proliferation of books, tapes and assorted media presenting elaborate explanations of current events in light of Biblical prophecy. Intricate and convoluted arguments were used to locate the true AntiChrist and diagram the involved military actions leading up to Armageddon. However, with the fall of the Soviet Union and the arrival of rapidly changing global politics, people like Lindsey had to revise their futuristic blueprints. The changes brought on by a computerized world linked through internet technology have become their focus for calculating possible end-time events. Lindsay continues to put out books and has a regular television program which focuses on the Y2K bug as the most likely trigger for his "end times" scenarios. His paranoid and sloppy style has been copied by numerous writers and speakers, such as Pat Robertson, each claiming to have the key insight into the final days of the world.
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Link Posted: 6/27/2002 11:47:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 12:04:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: [b]Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge[/b]
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That reminds me of a very good book by Mark Noll, [i]Scandal of the Evangelical Mind[/i]. He says that evangelicals, of which he is one, are being severely hampered by the failings to be intellectually serious. One of the things he mentions is that they have a fascination with intellectually deficient theories like dispensationalism and creation science.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 12:10:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BostonTeaParty: His paranoid and sloppy style has been copied by numerous writers and speakers, such as Pat Robertson, each claiming to have the key insight into the final days of the world.
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There in lies my objection to the Hal Lindsey types - they think they've got some special "in" to the book of Revelation - a book which God clearly indicates is NEITHER fully revealed NOR open to speculation. BTP - Thanks for that recap. Interesting and enlightening.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 12:13:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 12:13:54 PM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 12:46:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: garandman, Considering all the other prophecies that are throughout the Bible, excluding Revelation, Do you think we are in the last days ?
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[i]2 Timothy 3 1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, etc etc [b](kinda sounds like today, eh???)[/b] Hebrews 1 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son 1 Peter 1 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, [b](indicates that when Christ was manifest, THEN we would be in the 'last days') [/b][/i] And if those weren't clear enuf - [i]1 John 2 18 Little children, it is the last time[/i] I am convinced it is the "last days." (But as you can see, my end time understanding comes predominantly from places other than teh book of Revelation) To my reading of Scripture, there is NOTHING left for God to do with mankind. His redemption in Christ Jesus is complete, God has no further plans for the Jewish people as a nation (other than possibly a wholesale return to Christ as their Saviour, in humility, with NO emphasis on earthly land or possessions) This is it. THE last days. We're ready for things to get REALLY interesting - all in God's good timing.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 1:02:15 PM EDT
Garandman, I'd add to that 2 Peter 3: [i]First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.[/i]
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