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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 6/26/2002 10:19:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2002 7:20:02 PM EDT by Master_Blaster]
[img]seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/b1herzogmug26_0625203139.jpeg[/img] Deputy Richard Herzog [u][url=http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/76137_race26.shtml]Seattle PI report[/url][/u] Dep. Richard Herzog was a retired Army SF Sgt. - he survived unaccounted ops in-country, behind enemy lines, etc. but was gunned down yesterday by a coke smoking idiot on the streets of Seattle. Acording to news reports this eve., the defendant has stated that he deserves the death penalty for his actions; had bought the coke he used hours prior to the incident w/ $$$ given to him by his son & mother; has had previous arrests for assaulting PO's. News photographs show him clutching 2 Bibles in his hands & appearing rather emotionally cathartic. ***** For those who aren't familiar w/ current Seattle politics, there has been an abundance of protesting by certain self-described "black community leaders" over officer shootings involving black suspects. I am not in a position to know all of the facts surrounding all of these cases, but the protesting groups are creating a public impression of being more concerned w/ slamming evil whitie, as opposed to entertaining the possibility that even one of the defendants might actually be in error. Thus far, none of the incidents under scrutiny have ever been attributed to officer error/misconduct. ***** Edited due to an apparent site lock-up earlier today which prevented posting it in its entirety (sorry). Use the link abover to go to the full story.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 10:30:12 AM EDT
Does WA have the death penalty?
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 11:37:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2002 11:37:19 AM EDT by ColonelKlink]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 11:41:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 11:44:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 11:45:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 12:08:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen: Does WA have the death penalty?
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Yes, WA has lethal injection unless the defendant chooses hanging. I think there are some problems with the hanging part. I believe I read about a guy who wanted hanging, but people were fighting it because of the cruelty. There are 10 people awaiting execution now for crimes from 1991 to 2001. This info came from: [url=http://www.wa.gov/doc/Content/faq/deathpnlty.htm]The Washington State Death Penalty[/url]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 12:22:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JAFO: Yes, WA has lethal injection unless the defendant chooses hanging. I think there are some problems with the hanging part. I believe I read about a guy who wanted hanging, but people were fighting it because of the cruelty.
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Hanging used to be the default method of execution in Washington state, with lethal injection available as an alternative. If the condemned didn't select one of the two, they were hung. I believe it was Richard Rupe who was sentenced to death for killing two bank tellers, didn't select a methos of execution, gorged on Twinkies and junk food making himself extremely obese, and then claimed that hanging was cruel and unusual because he was likely to be decapitated due to his excessive overweight. After this, the state made lethal infection the default method of execution.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 12:28:59 PM EDT
Why would anyone want to hang, versus the juice? I would rather take the juice any day. Who in their right mind wants to drop? My preferred method of execution would be to be thrown out of an airplane, but that's just me!
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 12:58:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomer: Hanging used to be the default method of execution in Washington state, with lethal injection available as an alternative. If the condemned didn't select one of the two, they were hung. I believe it was Richard Rupe who was sentenced to death for killing two bank tellers, didn't select a methos of execution, gorged on Twinkies and junk food making himself extremely obese, and then claimed that hanging was cruel and unusual because he was likely to be decapitated due to his excessive overweight. After this, the state made lethal infection the default method of execution.
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Yeah, I remember hearing about that one too, but it was child murderer Westley Allan Dodd that I was talking about. He chose hanging, but had to put up a fight to get it.
From [url=http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial/dodd/5.htm]Crime Library[/url]: He wanted to hang, he said, “because that’s the way Lee Iseli died.” The judge set Dodd’s execution date for January 5, 1993, in Walla Walla, Washington. The ACLU fought to keep Dodd off the gallows, arguing that death, especially hanging, was cruel and unusual punishment.
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Either way, it's a shame that the murderer of Deputy Herzog even has a chance to go to court. That is just my personal opinion.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 1:17:25 PM EDT
Well, the ACLU would fight the death penalty, period. I think a lot of the anti-capital punishment crowd were stunned at the expediency of Dodd's execution. He basically plead guilty on the condition the he be executed. He never filed any appeals and was put to death in a comparatively rapid manner.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 1:18:25 PM EDT
Torf: " Why would anyone want to hang, versus the juice?" Some of the condemned wish to donate their organs & the lethal injection would preclude that.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 1:36:11 PM EDT
Did you guys see the perps family on tv? What a disgrace!At the arraignment they all stood up and raised their hands in the air,cheering that they loved him and they'd get him a lawyer and that he'd be alright!What a joke,the last thing I'd do if someone in my family excecuted a cop would be to cheer him on television. Then they had either his mother or sister interviewd,saying that he had a drug problem and he was crying out for help and that society would not help him so thatts what we get.It was all so unfair for him! Last night they posted this peice a $hits record-5 previous felonies-19 other arrests including 3 or 4 situations that invoved him fighting or assaulting police. This guy was running around buck naked in a very busy area at 5pm(rush hour)pounding on cars and blocking traffic yelling and going on about racism and such when officer Herzog was called. He was released from jail 11 days before, after serving half his sentence,for fighting with cops from a nearby town.Took 6 of em to subdue him.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 1:43:39 PM EDT
FYI...During this event, an armed female citized had the sights of her .40 cal trained on the perp but did not have a clear shot. Also another citizen drove his car into a sheilding position to protect the officer from further harm and then chased after the perp with a .38.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 3:27:53 PM EDT
The black guy from the Urban league is absolutely right: it's society's fault (READ: WHITE PEOPLE). This poor guy never had a chance. When black leaders were [s]politicizing[/s] bringing to our attention [s]self-defense[/s] alleged abuses by police against [s]career criminal thugs[/s] our fellow citizens who might have had a prior conviction, they were only [s]demanding[/s] suggesting that police [s]put themselves more at risk[/s] restrain themselves in such situations, because [s]a low-life of the same race[/s] somebody might get hurt! No connection whatsoever between that and this "appalling tragedy." [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/headshake.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 3:47:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Torf: Why would anyone want to hang, versus the juice? I would rather take the juice any day. Who in their right mind wants to drop? My preferred method of execution would be to be thrown out of an airplane, but that's just me!
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I'm pretty sure that, when done properly, the hangee's neck snaps the instant he hits the end of the rope, thus instant death, not suffocation. That isn't so bad. How about we bring back public hangings? This sounds like the right case for it.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 3:48:16 PM EDT
A black man hanging, it'll never happen. Too much like the old south.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:12:26 PM EDT
The death penalty is worthless unless it is [u]televised![/u]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:28:51 PM EDT
Sorry I couldn't get the complete report up earlier today (see edit note). I'll bet a case of green tips that, at the very least, the drug use will be ruled in as a mitigating factor & eliminate the possibility of prosecuting this as a capital case. Now that the link is up, I recommend everyone interested to go there & read of whom we have lost. Godspeed, Sgt.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:34:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GlockA-Molee: The death penalty is worthless unless it is [u]televised![/u]
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Why not... just like in the movie "Starship Troopers"....
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:39:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shadows: FYI...During this event, an armed female citized had the sights of her .40 cal trained on the perp but did not have a clear shot. Also another citizen drove his car into a sheilding position to protect the officer from further harm and then chased after the perp with a .38.
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I wish all citizens were like these. It might just be someone like them or one of you on this board that saves my ass or one of my co workers one day.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:42:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jadams951:
Originally Posted By shadows: FYI...During this event, an armed female citized had the sights of her .40 cal trained on the perp but did not have a clear shot. Also another citizen drove his car into a sheilding position to protect the officer from further harm and then chased after the perp with a .38.
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I wish all citizens were like these. It might just be someone like them or one of you on this board that saves my ass or one of my co workers one day.
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Be glad to. I'm sure you've already done the favor 10 times over.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:46:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mace:
Originally Posted By Torf: Why would anyone want to hang, versus the juice? I would rather take the juice any day. Who in their right mind wants to drop? My preferred method of execution would be to be thrown out of an airplane, but that's just me!
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I'm pretty sure that, when done properly, the hangee's neck snaps the instant he hits the end of the rope, thus instant death, not suffocation. That isn't so bad. How about we bring back public hangings? This sounds like the right case for it.
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Ugh! That long drop to the end of a rope! You're right of course, but still, the buildup, and the wait for the floor to drop out from under you would be bad enough. Everytime I hear about hangings, I think of that old movie short "The Incident at Owl Creek". Anybody ever see it? It's about this guy who gets hanged, but the rope breaks, and he falls into the river and escapes, he makes his way back to the loving arms of his wife, or does he? It is really amazing. I also get that organ donation thing too. I never thought of that.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 11:13:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 11:14:54 AM EDT by CavVet]
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: For those who aren't familiar w/ current Seattle politics, there has been an abundance of protesting by certain self-described "black community leaders" over officer shootings involving black suspects. I am not in a position to know all of the facts surrounding all of these cases, but the protesting groups are creating a public impression of being more concerned w/ slamming evil whitie, as opposed to entertaining the possibility that even one of the defendants might actually be in error. Thus far, none of the incidents under scrutiny have ever been attributed to officer error/misconduct.
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You know I wouldnt have a problem with your story except for some facts you left out in your editorial, and the racist inclusion of something like 'whitie'. You admit you dont know all of the facts in the cases, then talk about public impression. When the topic is guns we all agree the media creates public impression, but Blacks create their own impression? Give me a break. Are you saying we all watch BET news, where we learn about 'evil whitie'. Next time you add your personal editorial to a serious news story, how about leaving the race baiting at home, [b]as it is a board violation (FCC-Section 1)[/b]. FACT- The same 'Black Community Leaders' were on the news that night, quick fast and in a hurry, categorically charging that no officer should ever be hurt otj, and this was a tragedy. They expressed their sorrow, grief and cooperation in any way. FACT- I too dont know all the facts on all the shootings, but I do know, just like where I used to live (Cincy), Seattle has this [b]repeat[/b] thing about Police Officers shooting [b]unarmed[/b] Black Men. I meet none of the stereotypes but am personally in fear for my safety in the prescense of police in this city. Where does it leave me? IF I am fairly certain they will shoot me anyway, what do you think my position should be??? Fact- He has destroyed a family, and has committed similar aggressions toward other officers before. The liberal justice system chose to put this pos on the streets. While he did commit the crime, there is PLENTY of blame to go around. Even the Bellevue police on TV could not believe he was on the streets. I do agree with PARTS of your editorial, the Black [i]issue[/i] does weigh in this shooting. Seattle has a history of Policemen shooting Black men, arguably at will. The public has raised the issue and caused a careful examination of SPD/Black relatons ([b]CAUSE[/b]) Now you have an environment where the officers who would normally use fairness are using self restraint as an added measure of caution. Delaying reactions even in self defense situations ([b]EFFECT[/b]) Once again the bad have hurt the good in immeasureable ways, and good men are dying from it.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 3:59:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Torf: Why would anyone want to hang, versus the juice? I would rather take the juice any day. Who in their right mind wants to drop? My preferred method of execution would be to be thrown out of an airplane, but that's just me!
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Hanging, if done properly should be painless. THe neck is snapped instantly and the perp feels nothing. Whereas, if you are juiced...you are alive unable to do anything for minutes while they kill you. Nobody really knows for sure if there is pain because the perp cannot move or make a sound during the process. Also, some people are afraid of needles. Other reasons are that hanging is more a blaze of glory than lethal injection. As for myself, if it was myself on detah row...I would rather die with a rope around my neck than strapped to a gurney with a needle in my arm. Druggies tend to go the other way from what I hear. Some have even considered lethal injection to be the ultimate high. Then again, they are used to having needles stuck into their arms. Personally, the cruelest method would have to be the electric chair as I have heard that they stuff stuff up your ass to keep you from sh**ting when the fry you. That and they shave your head, soak you in some shit, etc... As I said, hanging would be the method I would chose among: Electric Chair, Lethal Injection, Firing Squad, Hanging, Burning at the Stake, and the Gas Chamber. The Gas Chamber is also cruel in my mind as it uses Hydrogen Cyanide which causes people to seizure and in some cases so hard their spines snap, hence being strapped into the chair. The 2 most blaze of glorious methods are firing sqaud and hanging. This is possibly why some people tend towards these like a guy a while back in Utah who chose the Firing Squad.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 4:06:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:15:12 PM EDT
CavVet I'm sorry you feel unsafe in the presence of Seattle police officers.It must leave you feeling very vulnerable,particularly at a time when you might need their help. I was unaware that Seattle police had a repeat "thing" of shooting unarmed black men(at will?).Perhaps depending on who you are it is a matter of perception. One thing I do know,is that no matter what coler you are you can not win a fight with police.You follow their commands with humility and if something goes bad ,you live to fight them in court.To physically combat police(no matter how scared)brings the possibility of escalating things to the point where you may very well lose your life.I thought this was a universal understanding. I'm not defending Master Blaster's post.There was no need for the word "whitie".
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:23:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 5:25:00 PM EDT by FishKepr]
Yep. Deputy Herzog was our kind of guy. According to his Sergeant at the service today, he loved AR15s, shooting and went to range any time he could. He kept not one but TWO ARs in his cruiser, a carbine and a full size "In case I ever need to reach out and touch someone." "Rich wouldn't just call in, 'This is Henry Two coming in with a subject.' He would say, 'This is Henry Two coming in with some knucklehead." His sergeant finished with: "I just know Rich is up there right now shooting that perfect score and nudging God for some more ammo." "Front sight buddy."
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:46:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 5:47:44 PM EDT by BlackDog714]
Originally Posted By CavVet:
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: For those who aren't familiar w/ current Seattle politics, there has been an abundance of protesting by certain self-described "black community leaders" over officer shootings involving black suspects. I am not in a position to know all of the facts surrounding all of these cases, but the protesting groups are creating a public impression of being more concerned w/ slamming evil whitie, as opposed to entertaining the possibility that even one of the defendants might actually be in error. Thus far, none of the incidents under scrutiny have ever been attributed to officer error/misconduct.
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I do agree with PARTS of your editorial, the Black [i]issue[/i] does weigh in this shooting. Seattle has a history of Policemen shooting Black men, arguably at will. The public has raised the issue and caused a careful examination of SPD/Black relatons ([b]CAUSE[/b]) Now you have an environment where the officers who would normally use fairness are using self restraint as an added measure of caution. Delaying reactions even in self defense situations ([b]EFFECT[/b]) Once again the bad have hurt the good in immeasureable ways, and good men are dying from it.
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Are you a Seattle Police Officer? How are you aware of these facts that SPD shoots people at will? It seems that you are spouting more of the crap you are attempting to stop. I am very good friends with MANY officers in the Puget Sound area, and none of them would ever harm ANYONE unless they thought either 1) their lives were in danger, or 2) if innocent lives were in danger. I am assuming that you are black, and that you have biases based upon personal experiences; however that does not mean that you have free reign to shit upon the men and women of any police department for doing their jobs. I am sorry that you feel put upon by law enforcement, perceived or real, that is not a good thing. I do believe that if you look at crime stats you will find that the black community (young black males to be very specific) are the source for the major percentages of crime in the Puget Sound area. It is unfortunate that the officers in which you speak had to shoot the "black" CRIMINALS, but they did. They were cleared of any wrongdoings by the Seattle City Council and returned to duty. Are you assuming that because you are black, that you have more information concerning the LEGAL shootings of those criminals than the panel of judges that cleared these officers???? Give us all a break and quit with the Black = Right syndrome. Racism can go both ways you know![:(!]
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 6:03:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 6:05:01 PM EDT by IMHO]
Originally Posted By JAFO: Either way, it's a shame that the murderer of Deputy Herzog even has a chance to go to court. That is just my personal opinion.
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What a heartbreaking report. Although this death is a terrible tragedy, I think that it's equally tragic that some even consider neglecting US Constitution when proposing punishment for a crime committed against an officer sworn to support and defend it. Atrocious. My best wishes, thoughts, and sympathies to the family and fellow officers who have lost a community treasure.
Link Posted: 6/28/2002 5:39:39 PM EDT
See how quickly this is forgotten???
Link Posted: 6/28/2002 5:58:12 PM EDT
Yes this is tragic....for all..his fellow workers, family, etc. And yes, there are those who actively neglect and sabotage prosecution and punishment for these "persons." We in Texas hear the cry and moans of all the liberals when we "carry out justice" as deemed by the courts and jurors. And contrary to liberal opinion, the full jury must agree and decree the death penalty to a convicted felon in Texas. So, as posted earlier, if you have 10 waiting on death row in Washington state...send em this way. I believe Texas will execute three this week. Ask any felon...they will tell you dont do the big time crime in Texas or Louisiana, Huntsville is tough, but Angola is your worst nightmare. Our best wishes, and prayers to the family, co-workers and friends.
Link Posted: 6/28/2002 6:25:28 PM EDT
Every time we lose a brother it makes you think if you could be next. But you just have to go back to work and live each day to the fullest. Rest well, brother.[USA]
Link Posted: 6/28/2002 9:51:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/28/2002 10:11:19 PM EDT by Lord_Grey_Boots]
FACT- I too dont know all the facts on all the shootings, but I do know, just like where I used to live (Cincy), Seattle has this [b]repeat[/b] thing about Police Officers shooting [b]unarmed[/b] Black Men. I meet none of the stereotypes but am personally in fear for my safety in the prescense of police in this city. Where does it leave me? IF I am fairly certain they will shoot me anyway, what do you think my position should be???
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Cavvet?!?. "Unarmed"? Which cases were those? The individual shot by an off duty officer? The investigation continues, but the reports were that the deceased pulled a gun on the officer first. There was another one armed with a large knife, another with a gun and a knife, and one with with a Cadillac that was reported trying to grab an officers gun.
Link Posted: 6/28/2002 10:00:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/29/2002 2:19:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/29/2002 12:58:32 PM EDT by Master_Blaster]
...I wouldnt have a problem with your story except for...the racist inclusion of something like 'whitie'. You admit you dont know all of the facts in the cases, then talk about public impression.
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The general public impression is indisputable - it's all over the radio & in the P.I. & the Times. As to 'evil whitie', I was attempting to describe the mindset that I perceive to be the driving motivation behind some of the actions of [i]Seattle Urban League[/i]. Sorry if it came across as a racial slur, as it was not my intention.
...Are you saying we all watch BET news, where we learn about 'evil whitie'. Next time you add your personal editorial to a serious news story, how about leaving the race baiting at home, [b]as it is a board violation (FCC-Section 1)[/b].
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I don't see/recall where I said that, "[Blacks] are all watching BET news, where [they] learn about 'evil whitie'". SLU has made race-baiting an issue, & I focused on [i]them[/i] because [i]they[/i] seem to employ it w/o much discretion. As to violating FCC board code, I neither directed nor implied any smearing descriptive of any ethnic group. SLU has played the race card more than once, & I think it's worthy of a discussion. This seemed to be present during the last Seattle Mardi Gras. The phrase 'evil whitie' could have arguably described the mindset characterizing those who kicked Chris Kyme to death. If I recall, about 2 years ago, there was a shooting incident wherein SLU protested a police officer shooting of a black suspect, only to learn - [u]after[/u] protesting - that the shooting was, in fact, justified. After learning the details, the group apologized & the story disappeared. While the apology was the honorable thing to do, the initial reaction was bogus. The I-5 "march" that occurred recently was also bogus, as it had the affect of "pissing on the public" instead of dealing directly w/ the source that was presumed to be the problem (King Co. SO). SLU, too often, seems to be unwilling to wait for the assemblage of the case facts prior to making a move. Maybe some SLU members should try for careers in LE. Or maybe just go on a ride-along.
FACT- The same 'Black Community Leaders' were on the news that night, quick fast and in a hurry, categorically charging that no officer should ever be hurt otj, and this was a tragedy.
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According to the same PI report, their statement came only after the significant public criticism begain to mount.
Report excerpt:[i]Yesterday, after a day[/i] of anger on local talk radio programs, a group of prominent black leaders called a news conference to respond."
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I believe SLU's response was sincere, but also an attempt at damage control.
...there is PLENTY of blame to go around. Even the Bellevue police on TV could not believe he was on the streets.
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I never disputed this. ***** Officer Herzog [i]may[/i] have hesitated because of thoughts of a possible outcry, or maybe not - we'll never know. I raised the issue for this reason. ***** As to being a [i]racist[/i], I've got friends & relatives from all over the globe whom, I believe, are qualified to judge what kind of person I am in this regard. All you can do is read what I've written here & make up your own mind accordingly. I invite you to further discussion via email, if you feel so inclined.
Link Posted: 6/29/2002 2:07:15 PM EDT
This will not ever be a racist issue, because: 1) The suspect is black 2) The officer was white 3) The national media will not touch this story with a 10 foot pole, Reverse #1 and #2 and then you have a national story. Sad but unfortunately true. I live in Massachusettes and this is the first I have heard of this story. I was away for 3 day's and didn't catch much of the news, so I may have missed it. Can anyone say if this made CNN or others? My condolences to the family Deputy Herzog
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