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Posted: 6/25/2002 4:59:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:02:19 PM EDT
i know wich direction the market is going tomorrow. down down down
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:08:49 PM EDT
When WCOM broke $20/share some time back I was thinking of buying some as a long term investment (something of a change for me as I am not a fundamentals-oriented investor). At the time I knew that the buying binge (and attendant growth) they had been on would come to an end and certain corrections would have to be worked out, but I had no idea of this. I was mainly thinking how the downward trend in long distance rates would affect them...
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:12:26 PM EDT
Boy am I glad I fled MCI before those clowns took over!
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:28:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2002 5:28:55 PM EDT by ECS]
I just did a little research for you fellas. Worldcom's accountant is [b]Andersen LLP[/b], the same accounting firm that cooked Enron's book and was recently found guilty of obstruction of justice. So given that, are you surprised? [smoke]
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:35:50 PM EDT
"clinton's watch" is irrelevant... this a larger problem in our nation. if you've ever watched high level execs in action at large corporations, you already know that much of our economy is an elaborate confidence game. and yes, the sissies on wall street will flake out tomorrow. super duper. [:(]
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:43:38 PM EDT
Lucent stock closed today at $1.92. That's 92 cents away from being de-listed. Who'd a thunk "AT&T" could sink so low. Only survivors are going to be SBC, Bell South and Verizon. They are the only ones with enough cash flow to get credit.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:45:44 PM EDT
Great another co that owes the one I work for 85 million bucks --seems like we were the only one that didnt go public and actually kept straight books and we are the only one left even Lucent is getting out of the business. If Worldcom and Adelphia paid us half of what they owed.....
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:54:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Maynard: Looks like another Enron. Happened during Clinton's watch also. Wonder how the Dems will spin this.
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The inflated numbers where over the last 5 quarters. That would be 1st quarter of '02 & all 4 quarters of '01. Wasn't W in office for 95% of that timeframe?
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:14:07 PM EDT
As I type this Adelphia is filing a bankruptcy chapter in New York. They are about six days later than I expected. This on the heels of WorldCom will make tomorrow an unusual day on Wall Street.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 7:23:33 PM EDT
My 401k looks more like a 101K. My question is how mamy of you are still long in the market?
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 7:36:12 PM EDT
tomorrow an unusual day on Wall Street.
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Frankly I don't want to even look at Wall Street tomorrow. I dont want the market to dip below 9k... at least on DJIA, Nor do I want to see either Nasdaq or the S&P500 sag any further.. But the fact is there is still some bad news comming and there won't be any good news for six months... What the Margin percentage in the stock market now???? Anyone know right off hand??? Ben
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 8:33:16 PM EDT
How can you check margin percentages? Who in their right mind would hold telecom stocks right now?
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 9:06:50 PM EDT
Should have pulled everything out of tech stocks 2 years ago and put it into defense industry stocks. In slightly less than 2 years General Dynamics has doubled from 55 to 110 and Lockheed Martin has about tripled from 24 to 70. Woulda, coulda, shoulda [:(]
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 9:35:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 9:57:55 PM EDT
DOW 8000, NASDAC 1000, that's the ticket. This will put investor confidence at an all time low. As an investor, if you cannot trust the numbers, you might as well play poker with your retirement money (or invest in bonds and watch inflation destroy your nest egg). So, how soon do you guys think the stock market will pick up? They were hoping retail investors would start the ball rolling, but after this, that's unlikely. Maybe in 2004?
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 10:06:24 PM EDT
I think S&P will bottom out somewhere around 750. Tech probably won't come back until sometime in 2003, and even then the companies gaining will probably be different; Dell, HP and the gang are making commodity boxes that everyone is buying every five or six years instead of every two years.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 11:26:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DrFrige: I swear these cheats should be locked up and key thrown away for life!
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Why don't we just shoot them all ??? [devil] [uzi]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 2:44:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DrFrige: Al Rantel today said a great quote regarding Martha Stewart: "This woman is so crooked, that when she dies all they have to do is screw her into the ground"
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But who in his right mind would want to screw Martha "The Devil" Stewart, he?
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 3:26:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 4:18:09 AM EDT
Worst part about it is that "Middle America" gets caught holding the bag. The company Execs get paid anyway and dump massive amount of stock options and the holding companies know the real value of the company/stock and get their top investors to withdrawal early. It's the employees who get screwed with their worthless stock options when the bottom falls out, those with retirement funds who's manager is told by his Execs to keep millions + in shitheap stock and mom & pop who invest a little but its not while their advisor's time to give them the heads up. Too many people to blame for this one (WorldCom Execs, Andersen, SEC[they should have been on full alert after the Enron mess] and the holding companies,that knew the real value of the company's stock and pushed it anyway. All responsible should be penalized monetarily and spend some time with Bubba in Cell Block 6. 223REM Oops! There goes another groups pension plan!
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 5:15:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2002 5:18:38 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Ummmm, yeah. Ben0001, the problem isn't competition it plain old cheating, lying, and stuff with similar conotations. Enron "made up" companies to assume it's debt, then listed those companies as owing Enron money. Their accountants didn't look into that at all. WorldCom had listed expenses as capital expenses, meaning the made it look like they were getting assets for the cost of the expenses. Same accounting firm as Enron. Cheating is something different than competition. On the other hand I do get put off when people complain they "lost money" or lost income because a stock, or assets didn't appreciate at as high a rate as the expected. High returns=High risk. Also if you bought a stock 20 years ago for 10K and it had increased in worth to 27K as of 1/00 and it is now worth 25K, you didn't LOSE money you GAIN is now 15K instead of 17K, you did lose value. People seem to lose sight of that. Don't get me started on the characters running these companies that think that they are worth several million a year plus stock options etc. Newsflash: If you work for a corporation you are an EMPLOYEE. There is a big difference between an EMPLOYEE and an OWNER.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 5:32:12 AM EDT
When the Enron story broke I posted a suggestion that there may be other "balance sheet and income staement problems" out there. Little did I imagine! Andersen LLP is a den of thieves teaching and guiding others to steal and lie and conceal. The list of Andersen problem clients is a virtual who's who of US companies. There is a person who posts as BYU who said he knows an Andersen partner and that he hoped the scum, his friend that is, gets away with his stealing and lying because it was just about doing thigs for money. I suggested that was a criminal attitude that if accepted excuses EVERYTHING. Either USA prosecuters clean up this mess by removing the corporate offenders - perps - or there will be another round of corporate fraud on the horizon.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 5:36:36 AM EDT
WCOM is set to slash 20% of its workforce. 17,000 jobs are going ot get axed and laidoff. Source : Cnet Radio of XM Sat Radio
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 6:14:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Goad: Andersen LLP is a den of thieves teaching and guiding others to steal and lie and conceal. The list of Andersen problem clients is a virtual who's who of US companies.
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Sunbeam is another Andersen client who, it turned out, had cooked books. I'd love to see what the Andersen corporate 'kitchen' looks like.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 6:40:45 AM EDT
Just to pile on a little more....from Worldcom's web site yesterday..
The company also notified Andersen LLP, which had audited the company’s financial statements for 2001 and reviewed such statements for first quarter 2002, promptly upon discovering these transfers. On June 24, 2002, Andersen advised WorldCom that in light of the inappropriate transfers of line costs, Andersen’s audit report on the company’s financial statements for 2001 and Andersen’s review of the company’s financial statements for the first quarter of 2002 could not be relied upon.
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Some accounting firm [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:07:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2002 7:08:44 AM EDT by prk]
Grab your pitchfork and torch. My company used Andersen Consultants on a project - it was a bust. It never ceases to amaze me what sluts corporate executives can be. That little fiasco and the computer system that went with it cost our consumers some 500 million in rates that should have been lowered, while last year we racked up our best year ever. What happened to the execs who jammed this down our throat (even though it was public that a clone company back East had backed out of that software because it just wasn't working out)? Well one 'retired' from Chairman with a fat package. The other got promoted to Chairman.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:12:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2002 7:14:25 AM EDT by Benjamin0001]
.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:54:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 223Rem: . . Too many people to blame for this one (WorldCom Execs, Andersen, SEC[they should have been on full alert after the Enron mess] .
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I the early 90s, I worked with a guy who previously also worked for the SEC investigating an American Savings & Loan Irvine, Calif(so. Calif, Orange County/Disneyland area). According to him, the govt brought in about 100 people, but according to him only 2 or 3 actually knows what is going on, the rest are along for the ride. Good luck on depending on the Govt to be of any help, many times they are a hinderance.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 8:51:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Arock: Lucent stock closed today at $1.92. That's 92 cents away from being de-listed. Who'd a thunk "AT&T" could sink so low. Only survivors are going to be SBC, Bell South and Verizon. They are the only ones with enough cash flow to get credit.
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Lucent is an equipment manufacturer, the others are operating companies. AT&T is an operating company. Now, did Lucent or AT&T close at $1.92. Two different companies now. I think we are beginning to see why the 'economy' was so great under Clinton, all the companies were cooking the books. I can't say that he had anything to do with it, but it sure should shut up Carville and his "its' the economy, stupid" because the great economy was apparently all a big farce.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 8:57:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cnatra:
Originally Posted By Maynard: Looks like another Enron. Happened during Clinton's watch also. Wonder how the Dems will spin this.
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The inflated numbers where over the last 5 quarters. That would be 1st quarter of '02 & all 4 quarters of '01. Wasn't W in office for 95% of that timeframe?
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I see it says 'past five quarters', but this type of cooking of the books doesn't happen in that short a time frame. It think a lot of this went on for a long time and propped up the economy and make it look real good under Clinton when it really wasn't. Not saying he was involved, but it sure made him look good.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 9:45:31 AM EDT
My wife's TDA had Wordcom and Enron. She got a letter from the company that handles it. This was related to Enron. It said don't panic that all is going to be fine down the road. I wonder what they will say now. She checked her portfolio and started to cry. That's why my money goes into my mattress. If I'm going to waste it let it be on things I could have. People say yea I got Millions in stock are still driving an old beater. None of us will get rich we keep getting screwed by the people who make it off our hard work and sweat. Yea its a chance you take, but not to be CHEATED outright. I will think about putting my money into ABC stock. Wish they came out with some.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 9:54:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By edpmedic: I will think about putting my money into ABC stock. Wish they came out with some.
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They do. They're owned by Disney.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 5:36:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG: Lucent is an equipment manufacturer, the others are operating companies. AT&T is an operating company. Now, did Lucent or AT&T close at $1.92. Two different companies now.
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Thanks God for that (for me). AT&T closed at $9.62 today, which is weak, but not as bad as most others.
I think we are beginning to see why the 'economy' was so great under Clinton, all the companies were cooking the books. I can't say that he had anything to do with it, but it sure should shut up Carville and his "its' the economy, stupid" because the great economy was apparently all a big farce.
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I gotta agree with that! Lots more stuff may come out in the months and years ahead.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 5:48:57 PM EDT
Aww hell, now it is going to be even harder to find a job with all of the new unemployed people wandering around. I was hearing that Verizon was going to be doing lots of "restructuring" after the first quarter. I dunno. Maybe they are just putting it off?
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 6:08:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2002 6:28:03 PM EDT by rgrjoe175]
I will have to say that this threads responses have been comical... yep lets blame it on everybody but the shareholders.... give me a fucking break... sorry folks but the shareholders own the company...bet most of you never went to a shareholder meeting or assigned your proxy...nor voted for the BOD.. oh it is the accountants fault...bullshit the accountants were following GAAS..you dont know what that is...then quit your snivelling..if your a shareholder you should know... no audit by a CPA firm will discover fraud during a normal audit unless by sheer luck...yep Andersen was guilty of destroying documents...that is it... one of you guys blamed the SEC... what the hell do you think brought this about?? an SEC investigation...dumbasses... I feel sorry for idiots that believe everything printed in the media but dont get off their collective assess and dont read a prospectus... probably the same people that believe that analyst are there to help you....no they fucking are not... as a person that deals with this shit on a daily basis...quit your fucking snivelling.... Regards, Joe
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:12:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rgrjoe175: I will have to say that this threads responses have been comical... yep lets blame it on everybody but the shareholders.... give me a fucking break... sorry folks but the shareholders own the company...bet most of you never went to a shareholder meeting or assigned your proxy...nor voted for the BOD.. oh it is the accountants fault...bullshit the accountants were following GAAS..you dont know what that is...then quit your snivelling..if your a shareholder you should know... no audit by a CPA firm will discover fraud during a normal audit unless by sheer luck...yep Andersen was guilty of destroying documents...that is it... one of you guys blamed the SEC... what the hell do you think brought this about?? an SEC investigation...dumbasses... I feel sorry for idiots that believe everything printed in the media but dont get off their collective assess and dont read a prospectus... probably the same people that believe that analyst are there to help you....no they fucking are not... as a person that deals with this shit on a daily basis...quit your fucking snivelling.... Regards, Joe
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Umm, I think you got it wrong. If a company cooks its books, then even the informed investor will be misled. Of course there were a lot of irrational exuberance going on, but nevertheless, fraud is fraud. It should be punished. As for these companies, theoretically shareholders own the company. But you miss the point. Often times modern corporate management see the shareholders as an inconvenience. Who rides the corporate jets, who gets the corporate perks? There is a great deal of incest among many corporate boards. How else can you explain executives who are responsible for shareholders losing their shirts getting such generous golden parachutes? COrporate governance has gone out of control. The boom of the 90s obscured this fact, as long as everyone is making money, few people will object to executives taking home obscene compensation packages. Keep in mind that the board of directors are supposed to be watching out for shareholder interests, but in practice they often pat each other on the back and let the executives get away with pretty much everything. They use lame excuses like keeping executive compensation "competitive" to raise pay for the executives while loosening performance standards. Why should they swap worthless stock options for even lower priced ones if the stock plunges? Do the shareholders get such nice perks?
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 7:53:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 1:07:27 AM EDT by Goad]
Originally Posted By rgrjoe175: I will have to say that this threads responses have been comical... snip oh it is the accountants fault...bullshit the accountants were following GAAS..snip no audit by a CPA firm will discover fraud during a normal audit unless by sheer luck...snip quit your fucking snivelling.... Joe
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You presume that Andersen is composed of bumbling fools and I presume Andersen is composed of ambitious sharks that does not get conned, but rather did the con job! These frauds are pervasive in Andersen clients. What about all the other big auditing firms' clients? The evidence is mounting that Andersen is populated by bold criminals. If they "get off easy" there will be more and more of this fraud. And in case you are not paying attention this is becoming a large scandal that is effecting all levels of investors around the world. Andersen may have done more damage to the financial markets than bin Ladin did. Time will tell if that damage is long term or not. If you got off your condescending "horse" you would know that while children post here, the general level of education in this forum is well above the national norm. Further, you have a foul mouth that is not appreciated.
Link Posted: 6/26/2002 10:51:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rgrjoe175: I will have to say that this threads responses have been comical... yep lets blame it on everybody but the shareholders.... give me a fucking break... sorry folks but the shareholders own the company...bet most of you never went to a shareholder meeting or assigned your proxy...nor voted for the BOD.. oh it is the accountants fault...bullshit the accountants were following GAAS..you dont know what that is...then quit your snivelling..if your a shareholder you should know... no audit by a CPA firm will discover fraud during a normal audit unless by sheer luck...yep Andersen was guilty of destroying documents...that is it... one of you guys blamed the SEC... what the hell do you think brought this about?? an SEC investigation...dumbasses... I feel sorry for idiots that believe everything printed in the media but dont get off their collective assess and dont read a prospectus... probably the same people that believe that analyst are there to help you....no they fucking are not... as a person that deals with this shit on a daily basis...quit your fucking snivelling.... Regards, Joe
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For only 7 posts, you have amazing insights, manners, and an IQ to match. You might as well leave while you still know everything.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 12:24:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rgrjoe175: I will have to say that this threads responses have been comical... yep lets blame it on everybody but the shareholders.... give me a fucking break... sorry folks but the shareholders own the company...bet most of you never went to a shareholder meeting or assigned your proxy...nor voted for the BOD.. oh it is the accountants fault...bullshit the accountants were following GAAS..you dont know what that is...then quit your snivelling..if your a shareholder you should know... no audit by a CPA firm will discover fraud during a normal audit unless by sheer luck...yep Andersen was guilty of destroying documents...that is it... one of you guys blamed the SEC... what the hell do you think brought this about?? an SEC investigation...dumbasses... I feel sorry for idiots that believe everything printed in the media but dont get off their collective assess and dont read a prospectus... probably the same people that believe that analyst are there to help you....no they fucking are not... as a person that deals with this shit on a daily basis...quit your fucking snivelling.... Regards, Joe
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So, say you own a moderate portfolio of individual stocks, say 50. Are you going to attend 50 shareholder meetings a year? Or perhaps you own an S&P 500 Index fund? Are you going to attend 500 meetings a year? Read a prospectus? Some cam, some cannot. The latter must rely on analysts and fund managers. The fact is auditors, independent analysts, and fund managers are the only parties investors can count on. If you cannot count on them and you cannot trust the corporate financial statements, you really cannot make informed investments. And you would blame lowly shareholders? Sorry, your argument is ludicrous.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 3:36:27 AM EDT
They only thing connected to Clinton is the moral decay of the business community, and thinking you can get away with it. But that has always existed, look at the Vanderbilts, Rockafellers and the like. Are we really so far from the robber barons? Personally.....I still like Howard Ruff's advice, invest in spark plugs and toilet paper. Add to that ammo lots of ammo, guns too...seehoney they were investments...better than the market.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 4:09:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 4:15:09 AM EDT by SeaDweller]
Those punks were always pretty sneaky. Anyone ever had their long distance? They deserve whatever happens to them. And everytime I see that silly MCI Worldcom Neighborhood commercial it makes me sick. Ya, they're on our side.[whacko]
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 7:01:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: So, say you own a moderate portfolio of individual stocks, say 50. Are you going to attend 50 shareholder meetings a year? Or perhaps you own an S&P 500 Index fund? Are you going to attend 500 meetings a year? Read a prospectus? Some cam, some cannot. The latter must rely on analysts and fund managers. The fact is auditors, independent analysts, and fund managers are the only parties investors can count on. If you cannot count on them and you cannot trust the corporate financial statements, you really cannot make informed investments. And you would blame lowly shareholders? Sorry, your argument is ludicrous.
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He does have a point-ultimately, every shareholder IS responsible for their failure to either read the prospectus and financial statements, or for a failure to investigate more closely the actual numbers. People lately love to use the "cook the books" term without knowing anything about the accounting process. An example would be WorldCom. While I haven't seen the data, from my understanding they were capitalizing as fixed assets items that should have been expensed, inflating their asset holdings. All of that would be done based on an internal policy for capitalization that SHOULD have conformed to GAAP. Anderson's audits would have been to check whether GAAP was being followed in the procedure, as well as spot checks that procedure was being followed. Their job is NOT to exclusively look for fraud by examining every record on hand! IMHO, what really needs to happen is a reevaluation of what shareholders really expect from an external audit. The problem has been that till now, they thought they were getting something (fraud protection) other than what the accounting profession knew they were getting (a check that GAAP was being followed). I don't know who this misunderstanding should be blamed on-ignorant shareholders or misleading audit marketing.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 8:16:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rgrjoe175: I will have to say that this threads responses have been comical... yep lets blame it on everybody but the shareholders.... give me a fucking break... sorry folks but the shareholders own the company...bet most of you never went to a shareholder meeting or assigned your proxy...nor voted for the BOD.. oh it is the accountants fault...bullshit the accountants were following GAAS..you dont know what that is...then quit your snivelling..if your a shareholder you should know... no audit by a CPA firm will discover fraud during a normal audit unless by sheer luck...yep Andersen was guilty of destroying documents...that is it... one of you guys blamed the SEC... what the hell do you think brought this about?? an SEC investigation...dumbasses... I feel sorry for idiots that believe everything printed in the media but dont get off their collective assess and dont read a prospectus... probably the same people that believe that analyst are there to help you....no they fucking are not... as a person that deals with this shit on a daily basis...quit your fucking snivelling.... Regards, Joe
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Joe, What you put forth is an idiotic argument. You are saying the shareholder should be able to detect the fraud, missed by the professional CPA auditors, by reading the annual reports/prospectus where the cooked data shows up? Give us a break! Do you think these CEOs stand up at shareholder meetings and say "Let me let you in on a little secret?" Another break, please! Further the fraud was irrelevant in the inevitable collapse of WCOM. If anyone cares see what was behind the giant house of cards follow this link. [url]http://www.beyondvalueinvesting.com/articles/worldcompyramidscheme.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 8:23:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:
Originally Posted By mattja: So, say you own a moderate portfolio of individual stocks, say 50. Are you going to attend 50 shareholder meetings a year? Or perhaps you own an S&P 500 Index fund? Are you going to attend 500 meetings a year? Read a prospectus? Some cam, some cannot. The latter must rely on analysts and fund managers. The fact is auditors, independent analysts, and fund managers are the only parties investors can count on. If you cannot count on them and you cannot trust the corporate financial statements, you really cannot make informed investments. And you would blame lowly shareholders? Sorry, your argument is ludicrous.
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He does have a point-ultimately, every shareholder IS responsible for their failure to either read the prospectus and financial statements, or for a failure to investigate more closely the actual numbers. People lately love to use the "cook the books" term without knowing anything about the accounting process. An example would be WorldCom. While I haven't seen the data, from my understanding they were capitalizing as fixed assets items that should have been expensed, inflating their asset holdings. All of that would be done based on an internal policy for capitalization that SHOULD have conformed to GAAP. Anderson's audits would have been to check whether GAAP was being followed in the procedure, as well as spot checks that procedure was being followed. Their job is NOT to exclusively look for fraud by examining every record on hand! IMHO, what really needs to happen is a reevaluation of what shareholders really expect from an external audit. The problem has been that till now, they thought they were getting something (fraud protection) other than what the accounting profession knew they were getting (a check that GAAP was being followed). I don't know who this misunderstanding should be blamed on-ignorant shareholders or misleading audit marketing.
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Again, how the F@#% is a shareholder to know if expenses are booked as captial expenditures? Are shareholders expected to audit the companies physical assets?
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 8:26:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ECS: I just did a little research for you fellas. Worldcom's accountant is [b]Andersen LLP[/b], the same accounting firm that cooked Enron's book and was recently found guilty of obstruction of justice. So given that, are you surprised? [smoke]
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Slightly different issue however. On Enron, Andersen wrongfully signed off on some questionable accounting practices because of fee pressures. Worldcom's issue is one of fraud and collusion of top executives. These type of activities are virtually impossible to discover during a routing financial audit.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 8:43:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cnatra:
Originally Posted By DrFrige: I swear these cheats should be locked up and key thrown away for life!
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Why don't we just shoot them all ??? [devil] [uzi]
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The bottom line is GREED. Besides, the payoff for a dishonest CEO running into the millions is definitely worth the risk. What could happen? A few years in a Federal country club doesn't come close to being a deterrent. If there is any justice a 60-something who just lost all of his retirement money will pull a Jack Ruby on them as they arrive in court.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 9:07:29 AM EDT
prk: I think it is important to realize that the stockholders own the company, but they don't run it. That is what they have the over-priced executives for, they acutally run the company.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 2:04:14 PM EDT
If the average retail investor was required to read and comprehend financial statements, research corporate accounting practices, check for fraud and improper accounting, the stock market would cease to exist because investors simply would not buy stocks. The average guy does not have the education or the time to research the details. This is why there are experts. Just like you don't research every decision your doctor makes about your health, you cannot research every detail regarding your investments. If you are a hands-off guy, you buy a mutual fund. You pay a yearly fee and for that fee you expect the fund manager to look out for your best interests. The WorldCom collapse took fund managers by surprise as well. Now, if they were taken by surprise (which really means they too have to put a certain amount of trust in the numbers), how in hell can the retail investor double-check those figures? BTW, there is a case for the Enron employee's failure to diversify, even though diversification may not have been actively promoted, however this WorldCom deal is totally different.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 4:00:46 PM EDT
I TOLD YOU SO>>> So I say WorldComm will file for bancruptcy protection within 600 days Posted - 06/21/2002 : 23:53:26 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- UUNet is not the Internet. They are the goliath of the backbone providers and the majority of ISP's out there have at least one of their connections. I say Bernie did a fine job of acquiring companies but never did anything about integrating them. So I say WorldComm will file for bancruptcy protection within 600 days. One of the big RBOCs will come in and buy up the parts and pieces for pennies on the dollar. SBC would be a good choice for the UUnet backbone and the LD traffic. US WORST and Qwest = Qwest Cincinnati Bell and IXC = Broadwing AT&T Might suprise us. I know I worked on some deals with European Carriers to acquire big chunks of US fiber. I don't think the regulators will let them buy WCOMM out.
Link Posted: 6/28/2002 5:47:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hipower: Again, how the F@#% is a shareholder to know if expenses are booked as captial expenditures? Are shareholders expected to audit the companies physical assets?
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He is not. He is SUPPOSED to evaluate the services offered by the external auditor, and verify what they are checking for. Most investors don't have a clue, and occassionaly, they suffer for that. Let me also clarify-losing money due to illegal activity is the fault of the business or executives. Losing money due to failure to properly evaluate a company's worth, the quality of it's auditors or the nature of it's business is the fault of investors. People assume that bad accounting practices=illegal activity. That is a false assumption.
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