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Posted: 6/25/2002 2:56:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2002 2:57:25 PM EDT by anti-gov-tinfoil-man]
$1.6 Billion Deal Would Aid a Blockade of Taiwan, Challenge U.S. Power in Region By John Pomfret Washington Post Foreign Service Tuesday, June 25, 2002; Page A15 BEIJING, June 24 -- China has begun negotiations with Russia to buy eight more submarines in a $1.6 billion deal that will significantly boost its ability to blockade Taiwan and challenge U.S. naval supremacy in nearby seas, Western and Russian sources said. ... continued [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38496-2002Jun24.html]here[/url]
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Link Posted: 6/25/2002 2:58:51 PM EDT
How long until they're strong enough to take Taiwan while disregarding our promise to defend? F'n commies. It's a conspiracy.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 3:03:54 PM EDT
The Russian 'Kilo' submarine is a formidable weapon. Yes it is diesel-electric but very, very quiet and capable. Not good news. (Too bad the Russians have beaten out Israel as Chinas top military supplier.)
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 3:05:12 PM EDT
Bla bla bla, do you think 1.6 billion is going to buy subs that are capable of killing our subs? Do you think they are as technologically advanced? I'm sure if these were "Red November" kinds of subs, we'd have told Russia that they are not allowed. What bothers me more is that Israel is selling arms to the chinese. I bet the arms they sell are arms bought or manufactured from the billions we give them every year. The moral of the story is that we need to cut off israel if they are able to sell extra military equipment.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 3:11:30 PM EDT
A portion of every dollar we buy in "Made in China" goods is for all practical purposes funding their yearly double digit percentage increase in military spending. Now let's all go off to Walmart - the Chi-com brass wants a nice new Russian aircraft carrier!
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 3:19:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2002 3:20:20 PM EDT by CITADELGRAD87]
Originally Posted By Minman72: Bla bla bla, do you think 1.6 billion is going to buy subs that are capable of killing our subs? Do you think they are as technologically advanced? I'm sure if these were "Red November" kinds of subs, we'd have told Russia that they are not allowed.
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Yes. Think Mig 17 at $1 million per copy versus F4 at $20 million. Early in the war, kill ratios approached one to one. Cheap does NOT mean ineffective, think AK47 and its progeny. Think WWII Germany and its wonder weapons, operational Jet fighters and bombers, guided air to air missiles, ballistic missiles, etc. Versus HOARDS of excellent but technically unsophisticated (relatively) P51s, Shermans, B17s and -24s, etc. Who won?
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 3:25:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: The Russian 'Kilo' submarine is a formidable weapon. Yes it is diesel-electric but very, very quiet and capable. Not good news. (Too bad the Russians have beaten out Israel as Chinas top military supplier.)
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The Kilos they already have spend most of their time tied up at dock. They cannot keep them running. No diesel boat can "significantly increase Chinas ability to blockade Taiwan". The only way they can "significantly increase" their ability to blocade Taiwan is if they were to get nuclear subs that could attack even in US waters and thereby force us to run convoys all the way from the US. A Kilo cant do that, its range is too short, it would get caught snorkling. They have to stay under fighter cover. Besides, 12 Kilos vs. what? 60 I688/Seawolf/Virginia types? Japan has as many modern diesel boats has China does even with this transfer, and will now probably build more. Its China's surface to surface missiles, and their large air force that are a problem. With the Tomcat being retired without replacement, and our AEIGS ships limited by the fact they cannot reload their VLS at sea... We could use some more destroyers though. Hell we can ALWAYS use a bigger navy.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 4:04:03 PM EDT
Be afraid, be very afraid. When are we freedom loving North American's going to come to the conclusion that these little red bastards are the #1 threat to us? Iraq? sure that saddam puke should be wacked but is iraq ever going to be capable of destroying us? The chinese are going to be capable of blowing North America off the map in the near future and those sick little mf'ers actually think they can survive a full nuclear assault from the United States, they have at least 20 icbm's that we know about that can hit North America and have a missile program that is using todays space tech not 1950's tech, they are arming for a fight; mig29/su27's being made in china and russian anti-ship missiles that were designed for one reason to take out American Aircraft carriers and battle groups. What they don't buy from Israel and russia they steal and reverse engineer (remember the W88 the miniature American nuke) they even have there own stingers now, and they can knock them off for a fraction of the original cost. We should not be happy until all of there old crusty commie leaders are swinging from one of the last trees in beijing. And western capitalists should stop creaming themselves with the dreams of marketing to a billion chinese and wake up and smell the blood of there own children when they deal with the red menace.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 4:23:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dugster: Be afraid, be very afraid. When are we freedom loving North American's going to come to the conclusion that these little red bastards are the #1 threat to us? Iraq? sure that saddam puke should be wacked but is iraq ever going to be capable of destroying us? The chinese are going to be capable of blowing North America off the map in the near future and those sick little mf'ers actually think they can survive a full nuclear assault from the United States, they have at least 20 icbm's that we know about that can hit North America and have a missile program that is using todays space tech not 1950's tech, they are arming for a fight; mig29/su27's being made in china and russian anti-ship missiles that were designed for one reason to take out American Aircraft carriers and battle groups. What they don't buy from Israel and russia they steal and reverse engineer (remember the W88 the miniature American nuke) they even have there own stingers now, and they can knock them off for a fraction of the original cost. We should not be happy until all of there old crusty commie leaders are swinging from one of the last trees in beijing. And western capitalists should stop creaming themselves with the dreams of marketing to a billion chinese and wake up and smell the blood of there own children when they deal with the red menace.
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They are NOT a menace to the US, that is why. China and the US are at odds over Taiwan- and only Taiwan. Taiwan is a embarrassment to the Chinese communist goverment, because it is the one part of old Imperial China that they don't control. It is reasonable to assume that they will fight to get it back. But China gains NOTHING by attacking the US directly. Nor do they gain anything by further expansion anywhere else in Asia. Prattle like Mr. Dugsters above is motivated by one thing- racism- nothing more.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 4:56:20 PM EDT
The Russians have a torpedo that works on the "air-cavitation" principle. The result is a torpedo that can travel 200+ mph under water! This is no BS story. They may have imparted this technology to the Chinese. What chance do our ships at sea have against this?
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:08:08 PM EDT
Maxdram Does the name "Kursk" ring a bell? It was one of these rocket torpedoes that destroyed the sub when it detonated in the torpedo room and set off sympathetic explosions of other weapons. Don`t know if I would want one of those.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:10:14 PM EDT
Its called the "Squall" torpedo. Some sources give an underwater speed of 300+mph for it!!
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:15:19 PM EDT
I'm no expert ,but I think China has a LONG way to go to be a legit threat,if we're talkin all out mano-e-mano verse the US,say over Taiwan. Yes China has a huge population,and explosive economic growth(still puny compared to US).Their military spending does grow by double digits each year,but so what?Everything is relative.What did they spend last year?20 billion?30 billion?almost 40 billion?We spend around 300 billion each year and have for a very long time. Some one mentioned their SU27 clones,I don't believe they have a 100 of these operational yet.They don't have a bluewater navy,more a coastal defense type. Besides the sheer technological and quality advantage,think of how awsome our operational experience advantage is.I've read our European/NATO allies ability to coordinate forces and logistics is far far behind ours.Where does that leave the Chinese? After the Chinese shoot there missles at Taiwan,then what?3-4 US carrier groups(plus Taiwanese assets) flame there entire airforce and sink whatever naval assets they have and the Commies are stuck on the mainland?What happens inside Red China politically after a disasterous scenario like this? Don't get me wrong,I'm not saying it would be painless and without cost.I'm sure the Chinese could suprise and do some damage.What scares me most is the talk of them developing systems to blind and/or shut down our electronics and computer communications.But once the battle is set....its game over for the commies.Crossing the Strait would be suicide militarily and possibly politicaly for the communist leadership IMO. Couple of other comments.... How many of their 20 ICBMs do you think would work?I know,on is awfull enough,but we blow up multi billion dollar satelites all the time and who has more experience in the science?(besides the Russians) Please tell me how to stop feeding the CHICOM military machine.Everytime I look at a tag or turn something over it says 'made in China" EVERYTHING!!! LOL :0) It is a bad situation with no replacment for the F-14,the SuperHornet doesn't cut it.I read that Dick Cheney had all tool and dies for the TomCat dumped in the ocean back when he was secretary of defense.Too expensive and in anticipation of a high tech replacment I presume?As we know,the last 10 years nothing was actually developed. Our friends in Isreal did have a contract to sell a number of AWACS type aircraft with Israeli developed electronics(reported to be more sophisticated than the US type)to China.We presured them not to sell these,but I believe they may have already delivered one,not sure on that. Interesting topic.I love talking about this sort a thing.Wish there were more topics like this.I'm guessing there has to be alot of military/political history buffs/enthusiasts on a sight like this.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:16:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: What bothers me more is that Israel is selling arms to the chinese. I bet the arms they sell are arms bought or manufactured from the billions we give them every year. The moral of the story is that we need to cut off israel if they are able to sell extra military equipment.
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Just to get you a little more steamed,you should know that Israel also BUYS Chinese military hardware
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:28:20 PM EDT
I have a buddy who was with HSL 46 a Navy Anti Sub warfare helo squadron. He flew SH-60 Seahawks. About 9 years ago he told me about an intel briefing he had regarding Soviet subs that were purchased by Libya. It seems the Libyans put one to sea in the Med, submerged and couldn't surface all hands and boat were lost. Most of the boats the Russians sell are junk. He's still with the canoe club but now flies C-9's
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:39:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By maxdram: Its called the "Squall" torpedo. Some sources give an underwater speed of 300+mph for it!!
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Its a piece of shit, the Russian sailors are terrified of it. Also it exists to fill a pecularly Russian requirement. According to Janes, the Squall is a strictly short ranged unguided weapon. Russian sonar is at a significant range disadvantage to US and British sonar. Enough of a disadvantage that the first they will know they are under attack is when they hear our torpedoes fire. The use of the Squall is simple, it is to be counterfired down the bearing of the incoming torpedo. The idea is that either the Squall will hit the US/UK sub before its torpedo gets to the Russian sub or it will be forced to dodge and cut the wires to the torpedo. The Russians seem to discount the performance of the Mk48 and Tigerfish after the data link to the launching sub is cut. A mistake in my opinion but they can remain unconvinced as far as I am concerned...
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:51:14 PM EDT
Racism? WTF? Communism is what I am talking about. There is no bigger problem in this world. And Taiwan is not the only reason the chinese hate Americans they love your money(so they can buy more weapons of mass destruction) but hate your guts, have you ever been to china? Fly the stars and stripes on your luggage and see what happens! The problem I have is with all the weapons they are developing and holding it ain't for Taiwan, Taiwan does not have battle groups, everything china does is about confrontation with the United States. There is not a more evil country in this world (human rights,Tibet, environmental horrors,religious murders/executions and most importantly lack of freedom). The chinese are not about to attack tomorrow, but in the future they are poised to be the worlds main superpower, and if you (or your children)want to live in that world then go ahead and ignore the problem. I said killing the communist leadership was the right thing to do (like saddam) not kill the chinese people or asians of any country for no reason, but the west should be doing everything we can do to bring change to red china, before it is too late for the entire world. That is not racism, that is the smart thing to do. If you think calling the chinese little red bastards is racism, you need to quit the politically correct classes you must be taking. And spend some of that money on a sense of humor. To throw around the word "racism" is ignorant. If anyone doubts what I said about china you need to do some reading and maybe even take a trip to china and see for self!
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:54:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2002 5:56:19 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By Dugster: Racism? WTF? Communism is what I am talking about. There is no bigger problem in this world. And Taiwan is not the only reason the chinese hate Americans they love your money(so they can buy more weapons of mass destruction) but hate your guts, have you ever been to china? Fly the stars and stripes on your luggage and see what happens! The problem I have is with all the weapons they are developing and holding it ain't for Taiwan, Taiwan does not have battle groups, everything china does is about confrontation with the United States. There is not a more evil country in this world (human rights,Tibet, environmental horrors,religious murders/executions and most importantly lack of freedom). The chinese are not about to attack tomorrow, but in the future they are poised to be the worlds main superpower, and if you (or your children)want to live in that world then go ahead and ignore the problem. I said killing the communist leadership was the right thing to do (like saddam) not kill the chinese people or asians of any country for no reason, but the west should be doing everything we can do to bring change to red china, before it is too late for the entire world. That is not racism, that is the smart thing to do. If you think calling the chinese little red bastards is racism, you need to quit the politically correct classes you must be taking. And spend some of that money on a sense of humor. To throw around the word "racism" is ignorant. If anyone doubts what I said about china you need to do some reading and maybe even take a trip to china and see for self!
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Yeah, sure, your not a raceist...[rolleyes] Your also a delusional paranoiac by the way.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 5:56:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: The Russian 'Kilo' submarine is a formidable weapon. Yes it is diesel-electric but very, very quiet and capable. Not good news. (Too bad the Russians have beaten out Israel as Chinas top military supplier.)
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The Kilos they already have spend most of their time tied up at dock. They cannot keep them running. No diesel boat can "significantly increase Chinas ability to blockade Taiwan". The only way they can "significantly increase" their ability to blocade Taiwan is if they were to get nuclear subs that could attack even in US waters and thereby force us to run convoys all the way from the US. A Kilo cant do that, its range is too short, it would get caught snorkling. They have to stay under fighter cover. Besides, 12 Kilos vs. what? 60 I688/Seawolf/Virginia types? Japan has as many modern diesel boats has China does even with this transfer, and will now probably build more. Its China's surface to surface missiles, and their large air force that are a problem. With the Tomcat being retired without replacement, and our AEIGS ships limited by the fact they cannot reload their VLS at sea... We could use some more destroyers though. Hell we can ALWAYS use a bigger navy.
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ArmdLbrl. I mean no personal offense but have you ever searched for a diesel electric submarine ?? Have you ever spent hour after nerve wracking hour trying to pull a virtually nonexistent signal out of the weeds ? Yes, you can kill a Kilo but most likely only when the boat begins to snorkel to recharge batteries. Get some better information on the Kilo. This pig is a thoroughly modern boat with a sophisticated sonar (contributed by the French as I recall) suite and more than adequate weapons and fire control systems.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:04:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2002 6:07:04 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
If the Chinese Kilos have been fitted with Thompson sonar that could make them more dangerous yes, it also explains why they spend so little time at sea. If diesel boats are so hot, why did the RN stop building the Upholders and sell off all the ones they have? Diesel boats have to surface, when they do they will be seen by satellites, and patrol aircraft. Kilos may be improved over older types, but it doesn't change that fundimental fact. And they are greatly outnumbered. Now if China can copy these boats and build them themselves including replicating the sonar system, that would be a different matter.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:06:41 PM EDT
Armed liberal? What did I say that was not true? Facts? How am I a "raceist?" or paranoid? What did I say that was either? I am only referring too china, they have grown militarily by 30 years in only the last 10. And they are a menace. What about this do you not understand?
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:09:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dugster: Racism? WTF? Communism is what I am talking about. There is no bigger problem in this world. And Taiwan is not the only reason the chinese hate Americans they love your money(so they can buy more weapons of mass destruction) but hate your guts, have you ever been to china? Fly the stars and stripes on your luggage and see what happens! The problem I have is with all the weapons they are developing and holding it ain't for Taiwan, Taiwan does not have battle groups, everything china does is about confrontation with the United States. There is not a more evil country in this world (human rights,Tibet, environmental horrors,religious murders/executions and most importantly lack of freedom). The chinese are not about to attack tomorrow, but in the future they are poised to be the worlds main superpower, and if you (or your children)want to live in that world then go ahead and ignore the problem. I said killing the communist leadership was the right thing to do (like saddam) not kill the chinese people or asians of any country for no reason, but the west should be doing everything we can do to bring change to red china, before it is too late for the entire world. That is not racism, that is the smart thing to do. If you think calling the chinese little red bastards is racism, you need to quit the politically correct classes you must be taking. And spend some of that money on a sense of humor. To throw around the word "racism" is ignorant. If anyone doubts what I said about china you need to do some reading and maybe even take a trip to china and see for self!
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I have been to China and I am going back to china (see my member profile for proof) Now if a US person has a US Flaf sticker or a US flag,they can get away with it,but if a Chinese citizen is waving the USA flag they will most likely get hauled away in a VW patty wagon.I do agree with your thoughts on them being bent on becoming a world superpower in the future.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:11:43 PM EDT
The upholders are great ships, the Brits stopped using them for financial reasons. There is a place in any modern navy for diesel powered subs. They are very versatile.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:13:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: If the Chinese Kilos have been fitted with Thompson sonar that could make them more dangerous yes, it also explains why they spend so little time at sea. If diesel boats are so hot, why did the RN stop building the Upholders and sell off all the ones they have? Diesel boats have to surface, when they do they will be seen by satellites, and patrol aircraft. Kilos may be improved over older types, but it doesn't change that fundimental fact. And they are greatly outnumbered. Now if China can copy these boats and build them themselves that would be a more serious threat.
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I've participated in many excercises where our job was to penetrate a carrier task force and attack the carrier. Yes, that meant evading aircraft and various destroyer type surface ships. We seldom failed. Oh, did that little number on diesel electric boats as well as nukes. The Chinese will be perfectly willing to sacrifice several Kilo's in order to get a carrier. Do not underestimate these Kilo's.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:18:57 PM EDT
I have been to china twice, the main cities are much different than the rural areas. I was constantly asked if I was an American, when I replied that I was Canadian, some people would begin treating me differently and the anti-U.S. sentiment would come up if you let it. I have no problem with chinese or Asians of any type I have traveled through Asia and like most places in the world people want to be decent human beings, but the leadership in china is a problem this world will have to deal with some day.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:25:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2002 6:27:56 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Dugster: I understand what you mean. I welcomed the debate of our two goverments while I was over there (for the whole summer) and I shut them up pretty quick when it came to facts about our and their goverment. What parts where you in? I was mostly in Shenyang and Beijing. I did travel alot to other areas in the rural parts. Do you speak any chinese? I speak mandarin and I am thinking about going into the service as a linguist. the NSA said I [u]might[/u] not be able to do so becuase of all the contacts I have over in China and in Vietnam,oh well I guess I'll try anyway.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:32:47 PM EDT
Granted, the US still has a much more advanced military than China does. But that isn't the only factor to consider. The Chinese are on a nationalist roll; they're determined to recapture the "rogue province" of Taiwan. Americans, by contrast, are mostly tired of foreign wars and generally see our commitment to Taiwan as a relic of the Cold War. The Chinese don't have to be able to wipe the USN out of the Pacific; they just have to be able to make America's political and economic costs of fighting for Taiwan unbearable.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:38:59 PM EDT
Someone said earlier that "they have at least 20 icbm's that we know about" I found that they have considerably more; http://www.atomicarchive.com/Almanac/PRCForces.shtml It seems to me that China would not try to use any of these weapons, nor even the hostile use of submarines. They have sat back over the past 60 years and watched us fight the cold war with Russia. They have learned their lesson in becoming a superpower by observing Russia's economic mistakes (which is why they can purchase the submarines and any technology at such a great price) and they have learned from our successes. In my mind, the weapons are more of a political tool than a tactical one. The majority of the population could probably care less about becoming a superpower for the global authority rather than for the increased living conditions. I wouldn't blow off the situation completely, but I would take it with a grain of salt.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:51:04 PM EDT
I agree that the communist leadership most likley could not survive an attempted invasion of Taiwan as most residents are more concerned with improving there lot in life through peaceful economic means. I wonder what would happen to China's ecomnomy if we shut them out of the US market?
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:53:16 PM EDT
Hey M4, I was in china the first time on a school trip and did mostly the tourist thing; Beijing, terra cotta, great wall etc..The second time I went with two females, one of who is of chinese decent and spoke fluent mandarin as well as Cantonese, I myself know only the basics (I am not a good linguist, some times I am told I do not speak good english lol!) I spent most of that time in the guizhou area and in the city of guiyang. On my travels through Asia I most liked Vietnam, it was not what I expected at all. The best place I visited was Tibet, and I have a lot of love for those people maybe that is way I am so on the chinese thing after seeing what goes on in Tibet first hand. I hope the NSA and your government reconsider and let you serve your country, it sounds like you would be an asset to the United States and they need all the Human Intell they can get right now.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 6:53:29 PM EDT
Didnt the russians have alot of problems with their subs? Accidents happen all the time, if you know what I mean. Crap happens at 1000 feet below the surface.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 7:03:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ocorvo: They have learned their lesson in becoming a superpower by observing Russia's economic mistakes (which is why they can purchase the submarines and any technology at such a great price) and they have learned from our successes. In my mind, the weapons are more of a political tool than a tactical one. I wouldn't blow off the situation completely, but I would take it with a grain of salt.
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China has indeed learned from observing Soviet errors. Today, China practices a form of entrepreneurial communism - state owned industry but incentives down line. China has also learned they can buy influence within our government and at a price they find laughable. The Soviets never understood they didn't need so many spies - just more money.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 7:10:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TOW2B: Didnt the russians have alot of problems with their subs? Accidents happen all the time, if you know what I mean. Crap happens at 1000 feet below the surface.
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The Soviets and now the Russians have never built-in the safeguards in their submarines (or their space vehicles for that matter) that we in the West take for granted. Yes, the Soviets and now the Russians have had problems with their sub fleet. But, I've got to tell you, their best subs were danger close to being as good as our best. We did and do have far more of the 'best'. ----------------------------------------------- Any problem at 1000 feet is right shitty.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 7:14:04 PM EDT
Ya! Crap happens at 1000ft. especially in communist countries when safety and maintence do not mean very much. Going back too what I was saying about china, from what I could see there seems to be a growing number of somewhat "elite" chinese for whatever reason (political, family etc..) they make up the people who live a decent life (Health,nice homes, good food etc..) And these are the people who run the state businesses for the most part. They draw from the vast resources of the everyday chinese person, kind of like slavery. That "elite" market is what the west seems to be after 5% of 1.2billion+ is a pretty good market plus the tobacco and other goods you can sell to the poor average person. So doing business with red china does not benefit anyone but the communists, the chinese people suffer and the leadership buy more and more weapons and get stronger. And the west risk building a monster that could destroy the west and other parts of Asia in the future.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 7:40:37 PM EDT
I gotta call BS on that Dugster, don't know where you're pulling that from. I have family in China, and while some of them are laid off and have no where to go, the younger generation (my generation) have a bright future. I have a cousin who's around 28-29ish, she works for Erikson, and makes around 8,000 RMB a month, her husband is in his early 30s and make 30,000 RMB a month, which is considered astronomical over there. They didn't come out of any elite family, they worked their way up there. Economic reforms brought economic mobility, which I think we'd all agree is a good thing. My own family was allowed to leave in the early 80s because of political reforms. Now I have much more reasons to hate the commies than most of you probably have (due to my family history). But the econoic reforms in recent years does bide some hope that the hardliner's influences are waning. The hope is that a younger generation of leaders more open minded about political and economic reform will come to power and allow for more personal and economic freedoms. The good thing is that time is on our side, the older leaders will die off, and the younger leaders are better educated and often more open minded. I'm a US citizen, but since I have family in China, I hope war would not come to pass between China and the United States. I would like to be able to visit them from time to time. China and Taiwan are like South and North Korea, except it's not as bad. I have relatives in Taiwan and Hong Kong as well, it took years for all the lost relatives to find each other again after China reopened relations to the west. I would hope that war wouldn't destroy all the progress that have been made since then.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 7:46:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: Dugster: I understand what you mean. I welcomed the debate of our two goverments while I was over there (for the whole summer) and I shut them up pretty quick when it came to facts about our and their goverment. What parts where you in? I was mostly in Shenyang and Beijing. I did travel alot to other areas in the rural parts. Do you speak any chinese? I speak mandarin and I am thinking about going into the service as a linguist. the NSA said I [u]might[/u] not be able to do so becuase of all the contacts I have over in China and in Vietnam,oh well I guess I'll try anyway.
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You can't join the NSA if you have overseas contacts? I did well in a NSA sponsored math contest and got invited to apply to their undergraduate training program, I applied and got rejected. I speak fluent Mandarin Chinese (and have very good knowledge of Chinese history, culture, literature) and I'm good at math. I'm a US citizen but I have family in China, so does that mean I can't work for the NSA? M4, where did you learn Mandarin btw?
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 7:46:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By byron2112: I'm no expert...
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There ya go!
Yes China has a huge population,and explosive economic growth(still puny compared to US).Their military spending does grow by double digits each year,but so what?Everything is relative.What did they spend last year?20 billion?30 billion?almost 40 billion?We spend around 300 billion each year and have for a very long time.
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For someone who believes "everything is relative" you seemed to have missed the boat on this one. Comparing our military budget to many less developed nations (like the LIBERALS do all the time) is a grossly misleading apples & oranges comparison. If you were to translate all of their costs and expenditures into WHAT IT WOULD COST US TO DO THE SAME THING you would find their outlays mushroom into a dramatically higher figure. Private Chan and Private Ryan just don't require as much care (nor is what they do receive in pay, benefits, housing and everything else the same in American currency). Clearly for PR purposes (and on American campuses) this works to their advantage. I mean, translating the figures in greenbacks, we must be what, ten times as strong in conventional terms? [rolleyes]
Interesting topic.I love talking about this sort a thing.Wish there were more topics like this.I'm guessing there has to be alot of military/political history buffs/enthusiasts on a sight like this.
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I like it as well. The site is only waiting for you to raise some topics for us to discuss. [;)]
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 7:47:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dugster: Armed liberal? What did I say that was not true? Facts? How am I a "raceist?" or paranoid? What did I say that was either? I am only referring too china, they have grown militarily by 30 years in only the last 10. And they are a menace. What about this do you not understand?
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If its just because of weapons sales why don't you include Russia, who builds most of these weapons, or India, who is buying all the same weapons China is? The only point of contention between the US and China is Taiwan. If they attack Taiwan, we are comitted to defend the Nationalists, and have been for 53 years. So they would have to fight us. Taiwans move to declare themselves a independant state triggered this- China found its military threats laughed off. So they have begun a crash attempt to modernize so that their military will be taken seriously. But scattered purchases of foreign hardware won't do it. They have to be able to manufacture high quality weaponry themselves. Even when that happens, it doesn't meen they are out for world domination. Its a reaction to the fact that as things stand right now, in 2002, the US could lay waste to China's military in a matter of weeks using conventional weapons alone and there would not be a damn thing they can do about it. Now how do you think WE would respond if we woke up in the same position. China has vast acerages of undeveloped land in Xinyang and in Tibet. Even with their enormous population, they need no expansion in territory.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 8:10:18 PM EDT
You may be right to an extent ,But I still say the difference in dollars(currently and in the past) has left us with a huge advantage in capability.no? I don't beleive they spend enough money to be able to do the same things we can(reguardless of how far they can stretch a dollar),ie the Chinese military and the US military are apples and oranges.10 to 1?maybe.where would you put it? Is PRC professional or conscript? Sorry for sounding like a liberal.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 8:14:17 PM EDT
There is no doubt that some of the chinese people are well off. I said that. "elite" is describing the chinese who operate the state run businesses and other "blessed" entities. but you must agree the majority of the chinese people are oppressed beyond anything we can imagine that is why Nike can make $150 shoes for a couple of bucks. There is no free economy or vote and until that changes what hope can there be? The education system in most parts of china is indoctrination hardly education. People like your relatives are exactly what I was referring too, the people who the west wants to market too, people with means and those people do not revolt. But no matter how hard you work in china you still have nothing no freedom no assets no nothing. The "new reforms" are a masterly devious idea by the leadership, they allow the impression of progress but are being used too keep the power in the power's hands. The best hope for china is the peoples who grew up in Hong Kong they are the only ones in china who have any real idea of what freedom is but they are up against a wall of iron. Less then 5% of the chinese people are anywhere near well off and it is not from lack of work, they work their asses off for the state and the state oppresses them. In china the minority rules over the majority, the minority with the power and the arms and majority with nothing. I hope it changes, but until it does we all need to be vigilant and aware.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 8:28:25 PM EDT
PLA is mixed conscript and volunteers. The officers are volunteers and the grunts are conscripts. Personally, I would like to see the Chinese government spend less money on the military and more on education and environmental protection. One of my best friends from when I was little still live in China and he couldn't get into college because there are so few. Another serious issue is pollution, the dirt in Beijing is unbelievable. It's disgusting. I visited Chang Jiang river a while back with my family, including the Three Gorges. I thought it would be beautiful, just as described in the ancient poems, but it was disgusting. The water was yellow, with garbage and all sorts of human waste dumped in there. I was so disappointed. How could anyone do this to what was once such a beautiful river? The Great Wall though was amazing, I visited a section near Ba Da Ling, and it was built all in mountains and stuff, very amazing sight. On the social side of issues, China is short an estimated 50 million women of marriagable age currently, and it's projected to get worse. Due to birth control policies enacted earlier and the selective infanticide of female babies, the ratio of men to women of marriagable age is often 2 to 1 in many villages. Having so many unsettled young males wandering around searching for a bride could be problematic. Supply and demand just tipped the scale way in favor of women. Forget about missiles and bombs, their research priority shoudl be robotic sex dolls.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 8:28:56 PM EDT
The chinese began to dislike the Americans during the Korean war, long before the nationalist take on Taiwan. India too is rearming itself, and that too is not a good thing. If you think china does not threaten it's neighbors maybe you should ask a Vietnamese or a Cambodian or any other Asian if they sleep well at night with a well armed chinese army within driving distance. And it is debatable if china has enough natural resources too meet it's needs. Have you ever seen thousands of acres that was once a forest and is now dry sterile dirt? I have, guess where! And Tibet is not part of china, that kind of proves the above point about chinese expansionism!
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 8:48:54 PM EDT
It is too bad that the leadership focuses so much on military power and influence.Jeez,1.5-2 billion people?I couldn't begin to imagine all the REAL problems they have to solve over there. I guess all these emerging contries like China and India,the #1 thing politically they crave is to be powerfull enough to be heard in the world huh? Too bad everyone couldn't just put it back in their pants and focus on doing whats right for there own people.I guess its easy to say when your living in the nation on top.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 8:50:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dugster: There is no doubt that some of the chinese people are well off. I said that. "elite" is describing the chinese who operate the state run businesses and other "blessed" entities. but you must agree the majority of the chinese people are oppressed beyond anything we can imagine that is why Nike can make $150 shoes for a couple of bucks. There is no free economy or vote and until that changes what hope can there be? The education system in most parts of china is indoctrination hardly education. People like your relatives are exactly what I was referring too, the people who the west wants to market too, people with means and those people do not revolt. But no matter how hard you work in china you still have nothing no freedom no assets no nothing. The "new reforms" are a masterly devious idea by the leadership, they allow the impression of progress but are being used too keep the power in the power's hands. The best hope for china is the peoples who grew up in Hong Kong they are the only ones in china who have any real idea of what freedom is but they are up against a wall of iron. Less then 5% of the chinese people are anywhere near well off and it is not from lack of work, they work their asses off for the state and the state oppresses them. In china the minority rules over the majority, the minority with the power and the arms and majority with nothing. I hope it changes, but until it does we all need to be vigilant and aware.
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For the most part I agree with you. Education there for the most part does blow. Which is why I think they should put more funding into education and the environment instead of the military. But I disagree with you on that there's no assets. You are allowed to own assets (it's a recent reforms). My dad owns an appartment in Beijing, it's pretty near where they're going to build the Olympic village for '08, so we're going to hold it for a couple of years. My cousin and her husband owns an appartment and a house in Beijing, and they're buying another house in Shanghai or Nanjing. Yes most people are dirt poor. It is however the creation of a middle class like my cousin and her husband, who do not rely on family priviledges but their own hardwork to advance themselves that gives the country hope. My great uncle's adopted daughter is an entrepreneur there, and she makes pretty good money doing import/export between China and the United States. The middle class was destroyed by the communist revolution(my own family, my grandparents, before the revolution were upper middle class people. Their families owned land, capital, had money and education (western education not to mention)). A new middle class of professionals and entrepreneurs are emerging, so there's hope. The middle class will demand better education, environmental protection, higher living standards, and political freedom. These people will have the education, free time, and ambition for these things. The Chinese economy is trying to move into higher end services and manufacturing as well as high tech, which can not be controlled centrally. A diversified and high tech economy will decentralize economic power, and with that, political power as well.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 9:04:59 PM EDT
As for Tibet and XinJiang, theoretically they're available for population expansion, but if you've ever been there, I doubt you'd want to live there. They're filled with mountains and deserts. Your average Han Chinese person is used to living in the plains, only the poorest peasants and opportunistic entrepreneurs go there. I think Taiwan should be reunified peacefully. Of course the political conditions would have to be right. No one wants to be brought under the thumb of such a politically corrupt regime as China have now. As for Tibet and XinJiang, if those two provinces left, that would reduce Chinese territory by almost half. Another thing is security. While the Tibetans are pretty peaceful people, influences of radical Islam have infiltrated the muslim peoples of XinJiang. That have lead to terrorist incidents and other racial/religious problems. I don't think what the Chinese government is doing in Tibet is right, but creating a whole new state can be risky business. One, you don't want radical muslims from XinJiang to leak over and destabalize the region. Two, many Tibetans themselves don't want to return to the theocracy. They want independance, but they don't want to go back to the way things were. Three, you already have all these ethinically Han Chinese residing in Tibet due to government relocation policies, what do you do with them? These are all things that need to be solved eventually, but as I've said, China have much more urgent issues to deal with. (given the men to women ratio, they might want to start subsidizing prostitution)
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 9:11:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2002 9:14:37 PM EDT by ColonelKlink]
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 9:28:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dugster: The chinese began to dislike the Americans during the Korean war, long before the nationalist take on Taiwan. India too is rearming itself, and that too is not a good thing. If you think china does not threaten it's neighbors maybe you should ask a Vietnamese or a Cambodian or any other Asian if they sleep well at night with a well armed chinese army within driving distance. And it is debatable if china has enough natural resources too meet it's needs. Have you ever seen thousands of acres that was once a forest and is now dry sterile dirt? I have, guess where! And Tibet is not part of china, that kind of proves the above point about chinese expansionism!
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China occupied Tibet in 1950- 52 years ago. Its been more of a administrative headache than anything, though they keep assigning millions of Han Chinese to live amongst the Tibetans, try to repress Tibet culture ect. Also, Tibet has been part of the Chinese empire for most of the last two millenia. Now the Tibetans are not Cinese, so whenever China is weak Tibet becomes independant again. At times Tibet has even raided China. During the last Imperial dynasty, the Manchu, the Lamas ruled Tibet as the vassels of the Emperor in Peking. Mao always had the restoration of the Chinese Empire as his formost goal-just with a Communist government rather than a monarchy Tibet was always a traditional part of the empire, so he occupied it. Now given that the Tibetans are devout Buddhists and the Han Chinese are now aethistic Communists its obvious that the Tibetans dont want to be under the rule of Peking, anymore than the Taiwanese do. But unlike Taiwan there isn't anything that the US can do about it UNLESS India and or Russia agree that they want Tibet independant too. And they don't, for their own reasons. India and Russia are ALSO the reason why China isn't expansionist anymore. They tried to attack India in 1960, they took some ground but lost so many men that they realized there was no point in continuing. Now India has nukes-Pakistan was NOT the reason India developed nukes- so there is no way they are going to get any more land in that direction. And to the north of China is Russia... good luck on taking any land from there. To the south is Vietnam, China tried that again in 1979 and got its butt whipped. Bejing now controls all territory that they held previously at the peak of the Tang and Ming dynasties. Those old borders are what the Chinese consider to be "China". Except for Taiwan they have all of it. And right where those old borders end, they have large nuclear armed neighbors capable of stopping them. They will not be expanding anymore.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 9:38:36 PM EDT
Don't they push around the adjascent island nations,saying the South China Sea is their domain,occupying the (Spraty Is.?),fighting over posessesion of small islands with the Phillipines and such?
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 9:39:39 PM EDT
The Kilos are extremely vulnerable to the new top secret Klinton class of U. S. attack submarine. These fire a lighted cigar at the Kilo while it is snorkeling at the surface. The cigar smoke invades the Kilo, the crew attempts to prevent inhaling it, and then they pass out from oxygen starvation. Most die when their heads hit all the pipes and values on the Kilo, rendering the enemy sub all but useless. [:D]
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 9:43:33 PM EDT
...With the Tomcat being retired without replacement...
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Well, strictly speaking, the Tomcat's replacement is the Super Hornet, which has a lower top speed, a lower combat ceiling, a shorter combat radius, and a less capable combat ability. But that's progress for ya. [;)]
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 9:44:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By byron2112: Don't they push around the adjascent island nations,saying the South China Sea is their domain,occupying the (Spraty Is.?),fighting over posessesion of small islands with the Phillipines and such?
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Well they try, and they also resort to simply practicing piracy. Untill very recently that was all their navy was capable of. Spratlys have oil, and China is short of it. Course they don't do a damn thing there when any units of the US Navy are around. The Spratlys are beyond the range of their fighters.
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