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Posted: 6/23/2002 10:19:48 PM EDT
If all hell breaks loose in the middle east, then it's possible that Egypt would attempt another invasion. What I'm wondering is how you all think the Egyptian M1A1 tanks would fair against the Israeli Merkavas. I suspect that the crews would be the deciding factor, but toe-to-toe, how do Merkavas compare to export-quality M1A1s? -kill-9
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 10:34:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2002 10:35:54 PM EDT by Sewer_Urchin]
Scary thought. I have in Tom Clancy's "Armored Cav" reference book cases of M1 armor defeating multiple 130mm rounds from T-72s and also 120mm rounds from other M1s. It is true that the crews will be the deciding factor, consider also that the Isrealis have AH-64s.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 10:59:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sewer_Urchin: I have in Tom Clancy's "Armored Cav" reference book cases of M1 armor defeating multiple 130mm rounds from T-72s and also 120mm rounds from other M1s.
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Bear in mind that the tanks to which he refers probably had the entire Chobham/Depleted Uranium armor package which is probably not exported. -kill-9
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 11:34:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By kill-9:
Originally Posted By Sewer_Urchin: I have in Tom Clancy's "Armored Cav" reference book cases of M1 armor defeating multiple 130mm rounds from T-72s and also 120mm rounds from other M1s.
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Bear in mind that the tanks to which he refers probably had the entire Chobham/Depleted Uranium armor package which is probably not exported. -kill-9
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Will the DU/Chobham matrix defeat a hellfire warhead?
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 12:19:18 AM EDT
Did a little digging and found this site. [url]www.periscope1.com/demo/weapons/gcv/tanks/w0003593.html[/url] It mentions the Egyptian tank program (and various other Middle Eastern countries). No mention of export restrictions of DU armor. Heck, I think that I read that they now build them over there. As to the question of vulnerability to the Hellfire missile: "Of the over 1,950 M1's and M1A1 tanks in the Kuwaiti Theater of Operations, only four suffered catastrophic damage and four were damaged but repairable, the Army report stated. Later analysis revealed that of the four that caught fire, three were hit erroneously by U.S. AGM-114 Hellfire missiles. No crewmen were injured because the bustle doors and blow off panels worked as designed to vent the explosions upward." Looks like we developed and distributed a pretty formidable weapon that Israel may now have to defeat.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 12:24:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2002 12:34:52 AM EDT by shooter69]
What bothers me about the m1a1 vs merkava debate is not which is a better tank, but that the Israelis are onto producing the Merkava mk4 while we have shut down production of the (made locally in Warren & Sterling Heights) Abrams MBT (albeit upgrading some older ones to m1a2). [:(] Edited to add: There was some GD engineer in the paper a while back who was accused of turning over our tank info to Israel... so I'm sure the mk4 is a nice tank and would come off well in any conflict with the older Egyptian abrams'...
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 12:41:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2002 12:43:33 AM EDT by Gunbert]
Where does that put us, politically? Since we are technically allied with both nations, would we allow Egypt and Isreal to slug it out? Would we refrain from entering the festivities, but possibly supply the Isreali's with ordnance that might help them out? I'm thinking specifically of the Javelin missile system, which may not completely destroy an M1A1, it will certainly take it out of the fight.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 12:51:19 AM EDT
Gunbert... as crazy as it sounds... we became Egypt's supplier (taking over from the Soviets) as part of the Camp David peace accords... TO KEEP THEM FROM GOING TO WAR WITH ISRAEL. So, should such a thing a happen at all, I'd say we failed pretty big. I can't remember the number off hand but we're talking like $50 billion+ over the past couple decades right down the tubes. The cold war is over and the Egyptians would actually have to pay for their tanks in the future should they pull something.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 1:08:11 AM EDT
I wouldnt worry about it,the Depleted Uranium armor is not in the export kits.I believe the Chobam armor is however.Chobam works really good against HEAT but is not really ideal against penetraters. As far as the Merkava is concerned its a very capable tank.I think it has various forms of reactive and hard Alloy/Ceramics armor.But Tank armor is a very secretive thing.we really dont know. We also export only Stainless or Tungsten Long Rod Penetraters.Both are not nearly as effective as the DU penetraters. The Leoperd 2 improved Tanks that Germany has are supposed to be good too,as is the French LeClerc. I have not heard to much about any of the T80 and T90 tanks Russia has.All i know the T72's we destroyed in desert storm are the export version of the T64.Russia will not export any of their T64's cause of fear of having to fight them later. But Russia does export lots of T55 and T72 tanks.I think these two are in the same class as the M48/M60 series US tanks.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 1:36:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2002 3:38:37 AM EDT by platform389]
"Of the over 1,950 M1's and M1A1 tanks in the Kuwaiti Theater of Operations, only four suffered catastrophic damage and four were damaged but repairable, the Army report stated. Later analysis revealed that of the four that caught fire, three were hit erroneously by U.S. AGM-114 Hellfire missiles. No crewmen were injured because the bustle doors and blow off panels worked as designed to vent the explosions upward." Looks like we developed and distributed a pretty formidable weapon that Israel may now have to defeat.
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[img]http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du/images/fig22.gif[/img] Yeah, I would say that is an accurate assessment... Hellfire vs M1
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 3:34:56 AM EDT
Yeah, I would say that is an accurate assessment... Hellfire vs M1 "Tis only a flesh wound." Monty Python The Holy Grail
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 5:02:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By platform389:
"Of the over 1,950 M1's and M1A1 tanks in the Kuwaiti Theater of Operations, only four suffered catastrophic damage and four were damaged but repairable, the Army report stated. Later analysis revealed that of the four that caught fire, three were hit erroneously by U.S. AGM-114 Hellfire missiles. No crewmen were injured because the bustle doors and blow off panels worked as designed to vent the explosions upward." Looks like we developed and distributed a pretty formidable weapon that Israel may now have to defeat.
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[img]http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du/images/fig22.gif[/img] Yeah, I would say that is an accurate assessment... Hellfire vs M1
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Looks like the tractor trailor rig survived just fine. What kind of armor package do they put on those? [:D]
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 6:54:01 AM EDT
The Iraqis took a few M1s during the Gulf War, but all from the rear.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 7:04:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By imposter: The Iraqis took a few M1s during the Gulf War, but all from the rear.
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Yeah, Ideally you do not want to engage ANY MBT from the front, the armor sloping and sheer mass of it is oriented toward frontal hits. Hitting it from a top down orientation or from the rear is ideal, you a tread hit will immobilize it pretty quick and that's just makes the next shot easier. Drop a round on the rear deck and the tank is dead.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 7:27:28 AM EDT
I dont know if this is accurate but I remember reading when I was younger that the M1/Leoperd/Merkeva are all 99% first shot/kill Tanks.. As far as Clinton allowing Egypt to buy M1A1's. and as far as.... Have these people no sense.... who the hell wants to sell tanks to someone you might have to fight.... oh welll...
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