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Posted: 6/17/2002 5:17:03 PM EDT
Personally I don't care if you believe in God or not(yeah I know thats not the right way to think)but I am curious why some of you people feel this constant need to disprove the existence of the big guy. If you don't believe then what's it to you, I seldom see anyone post a "YOU SHOULD BELIEVE IN GOD OR ELSE" topic, it happens I guess but not as often as the "you buncha bible thumpers this or you crazy christians that" thread. Do you need constant reassurance that you've chosen the right path or something? Why do you care if I or anyone else believes in God? A curious post about the bible or explain this contradiction I can perfectly understand but the topics and posts that basically amount to "your a closed minded idiot for believing" smacks of insecurities in your own life and an overzealousness to prove your own beliefs. Theres also nothing any more idiotic looking than jumping in the middle of a perfectly intelligent discussion between say Garandman and Eric on religion and posting something like "look out here come the blustering big mouth bible thumpers" when the bible thumpers are who the thread was directed at in the first place. If you don't like the subject matter don't read it.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 5:26:34 PM EDT
I have nothing wrong with religion in theory. I just don't want some "Man of the Cloth" to start ramming a load of B.S. down my throat, or trying to influence domestic and foreign policy. Separation of Church and State is a good thing. If you need proof, just look at what Islam did to it's people. Don't really want to go down that road. Or maybe, we should bring back the Crusades.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 5:30:48 PM EDT
I think the reason is Human Pride. Then, if one does accept God, we run into the same reason above wreaking havoc on which is the correct WAY to Him. Regardless of the arguments, HE awaits us all. [;D]
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 5:36:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 5:44:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 5:45:48 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Once again you religious nuts have it BACKWARDS. You are NOT being persecuted. YOU are the ones trying to shove out hard science in schools and replace it with your farytales. YOU are the ones who conspire and use your votes to stubbornly deny funding for science education, when you cant get your way and get your superstition taught in the public schools. YOU are the ones who keep trying to turn us into a backward, hillbilly nation, a Christian version of third world pits like Iran and Sudan. If it weren't for the Christian right and the corossive effect they have on the public education system here in this country, American busnesses wouldn't have to be helping Chinese, Korean, Indian, Japanese, and Russian engineers, programmers, computer technicians, mathmaticians. We would have no shortage of our own, home grown high tech worker. People are against you because to follow your doctrine would destroy our country economicly. That is all.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 5:49:08 PM EDT
but the topics and posts that basically amount to "your a closed minded idiot for believing" smacks of insecurities in your own life and an overzealousness to prove your own beliefs
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Maybe they secretly wanted to be a Preacher? I agree with you DoomPatrol, always made me wonder who they were trying to convince. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 5:51:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 5:52:27 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
I'm no expert in these matters. However, I've read that in debates with equally qualified opponents, the Darwinians usually lose !! This is coming from a guy who uses organized religion opposition to new inventions and ideas as a marker as to whether or not these inventions or ideas may be good. If the major religions oppose, then probably I embrace. Cloning would be a recent example. Religions detest cloning therefore I embrace.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 5:53:13 PM EDT
No flames intended here...
Originally Posted By Mach1: Separation of Church and State is...
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...is from where? DoubleFeed, Science is proving the Bible every year. The truth is out there... SSD
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 5:53:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: People are against you because to follow your doctrine would destroy our country economicly. That is all.
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WOW!!!!!!!!! Where the heck did you get this from?? I had no idea us Christians were that powerful.[;)] Sgtar15
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 5:58:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: The more logical minds do not understand how an intelligent person can just decide to believe something, despite evidence against the idea. Evidence that goes unanswered. It it not understood why you deliberately choose to refuse to question - and that baffles and frustrates a logical mind.
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The "more logical minds"? Are you more logical than Isaac Newton? C.S. Lewis? Chesterton? I can understand someone not jumping on to a religious bandwagon "just because", but it really is a mental midget who claims, "there is nothing beyond what we see."
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:01:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: People are against you because to follow your doctrine would destroy our country economicly. That is all.
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You are ignorant. I can't program because I happen to be a Christian? I can't study physics because I am a Christian? Well I am majoring in both, so you might want to rethink (or think about it for the first time, rather, as clearly no thought went into your first post) your idiotic statements.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:02:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 6:04:11 PM EDT by SSD]
Originally Posted By SSD: No flames intended here...
Originally Posted By Mach1: Separation of Church and State is...
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...is from where? DoubleFeed, Science is proving the Bible every year. The truth is out there... SSD
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ArmdLbrl posted while I was typing the above. ArmdLbrl, wow, you really believe all that don’t you? And I will defend to the death your right to say/think that. Becouse God said it should be that way before there was a USA. SSD
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:02:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: People are against you because to follow your doctrine would destroy our country economicly. That is all.
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Of course, and all atheistic workers paradises have done nothing but prosper. Soviet Union, Romania, Cambodia... would you care for me to continue? Geez, if you're anti-religion at least argue your point well.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:03:55 PM EDT
Another reason, at least for me, is that I truly find it incredible that in 2002 people with access to all sorts of information, actually believe in some supernatural being they call "god". The fear these people live by must be staggering.....I can only imagine. It's the fear of lifes big, unanswered questions that forces the assigning of such rediculous and improbable explantions as "god did it". Where did we come from? Why are we here? What happens when we die? It's questions like that, that drive people to the least likely conclusions....."There must be a god", because admitting that we have no idea what the real answers are terrifies people. I don't know the answers, but I accept that. And if I die, and it's as simple as the lights going out, so be it. It's peoples lack of accepting the insignificant nature of themselves, and the self rightious assumptions and self deception that give them a value beyond what nature randomly assigns to everything else. The removal from natural processes and explanations are incredible. "Only humans go to heaven. We're important after all. The rest of the animals just die...they're not as smart as we are, not as important." If it makes you feel safer, more power to you. Sounds like fear to me. I don't care to have beliefs based in fear and superstition placed on me, knocking on my door, running my country, teaching my kids o0r anything else. It's a relic from the ancient world, appealing to the timeless emotion of fear and the need to assign self importance to our existance. We're all one astroid away from being a part of the fossil record ourselves....but I guess to some of you, that would have been a stone shot directly from "gods" great slingshot, huh? Self deception has no limits.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:19:48 PM EDT
Creationism would have us believe the Earth is only 5000 years old. I see this being disproved every day. I beleive in a God as Creator, but that doesn't mean I believe in the mythical parts of the Bible.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:25:21 PM EDT
Post from ArmdLbrl -
Once again you religious nuts have it BACKWARDS.
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Religious nuts? Is that the level of discourse that secular humanism has brought you to, Sir? If it is, I wonder why anyone would ever want to sound that stupid in the first place?
You are NOT being persecuted.
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Of course we are, you are just too caught up in the gidiness of it all to admit it! The schools are not throwing out copies of 'Heather Has Two Mommies' but plaques with the Ten Commandments written on them.
YOU are the ones trying to shove out hard science in schools and replace it with your farytales.
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Hmmm, how many states and school systems have accomplished this, ArmdLbrl? [u]Where[/u] is creationism being taught in Public Schools? It may be taught freely enough in private schools, but where are these Public Schools you're talking about? Kansas? Nope, not there. Where?
YOU are the ones who conspire and use your votes to stubbornly deny funding for science education, when you cant get your way and get your superstition taught in the public schools.
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Once again, where is this happening, ArmdLbrl? Give us the name of the schools that this is happening in, 'cause guess what? [size=3]This religious nut doesn't believe a friggin word you're saying![/size=3] In other words, I think you are lying. How's them apples?
YOU are the ones who keep trying to turn us into a backward, hillbilly nation, a Christian version of third world pits like Iran and Sudan.
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That is simply idiotic. When America was at its greatest, it was a thoroughly Christian nation. We went to the Moon thanks to scientists who were taught in Public Schools where morning prayers, prayers at assemblies, prayers at sporting events were the norm, not forbidden under penalty of law.
If it weren't for the Christian right and the corossive effect they have on the public education system here in this country, American busnesses wouldn't have to be helping Chinese, Korean, Indian, Japanese, and Russian engineers, programmers, computer technicians, mathmaticians.
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You, Sir, are a fool if you believe what you just wrote! The Public School systems is now and has been for the past 40 years what you friggin atheists have wanted them to be - God-free zones. It stinks, just as your poor philosophies stink! If there are business leaders of the future, scientists of merit, and people of genuine abilities that will be graduating they will come from private Christian schools. And surely, certainly, unquestionably, undeniably, [b]not[/b] from [u]your[/u] Public Schools! The good news is that Christians are ordinarily so well off that they can afford to pay public school taxes plus send their kids to the good private Christian schools. The Christians who are not so well off will still be able to attend if their churches assist them. It's part of their American heritage, you know!
We would have no shortage of our own, home grown high tech worker.
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If the United States have any at all, they most likely graduated from a private Christian school![:D] Heh-heh-heh![:D]
People are against you because to follow your doctrine would destroy our country economicly. That is all.
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Heh-heh-heh, we all [u]know[/u] you don't believe that! Eric The(SassierN'Hell!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:33:17 PM EDT
The thing is, creationism needs to be attacked because it's trying to establish itself as science while it has no good material fundation to support it. If people want to believe in Creationism as part of their faith, then fine. But if they're trying to establish it as a viable scientific theory, then it needs to be attacked relentlessly until it can no longer be attacked on empirical grounds. That's how science works, skepticism is the foundation of good science. Any good theory would have to be disprovable, and withstand the attacks of those trying to disprove it. For those trying to promote creationism, you have to decide, what do you want creationism to be. Faith or science, because if you want to establish it as a scientific theory then you have to get used to the attacks. Welcome to the world of western science.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:34:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4: The fear these people live by must be staggering.....I can only imagine. It's the fear of lifes big, unanswered questions that forces the assigning of such rediculous and improbable explantions as "god did it". Where did we come from? Why are we here? What happens when we die? It's questions like that, that drive people to the least likely conclusions....."There must be a god", because admitting that we have no idea what the real answers are terrifies people.
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LOL! you've got it all backwards. Christians don't have fear of the unknown. for them there is no unknown. we can debate till we turn blue in the face whether their beliefs are correct, but they do not believe out of fear. it is the belief in God and his Son that takes the fear out of life.
I don't know the answers, but I accept that. And if I die, and it's as simple as the lights going out, so be it. It's peoples lack of accepting the insignificant nature of themselves, and the self rightious assumptions and self deception that give them a value beyond what nature randomly assigns to everything else.
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why is their belief any different from yours? you believe that we're simply more sentient than other life forms. Christians believe that and a little more. what do you care? frankly, i grow tired of the "there's no evidence for God" argument. cuz ya know what? there's no evidence AGAINST HIM either. now how ya like them apples?
The removal from natural processes and explanations are incredible. "Only humans go to heaven. We're important after all. The rest of the animals just die...they're not as smart as we are, not as important." If it makes you feel safer, more power to you. Sounds like fear to me.
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and you're mixing your arguments here. Christians' viewpoints that humans are the only creatures with souls has nothing to do with natural processes as natural processes tell us nothing about the soul status of any living form. i'll be the first to admit that many Christians, in a knee-jerk reaction to what they think is opposition to the Bible, will try and discount and discredit good science. i think those actions are irresponsible too. but not all Christians think like this. some are humble enough to say, "you know, i can't even begin to comprehend all that there is to know. yes, the Bible says this, and science seems to be saying something different. but that doesn't necessarily mean that the two are mutually exclusive and/or contradictory. it could be that we mere humans (see, Christians don't see themselves as all that special compared to others) don't have 100% of the information needed to reconcile these two sources of information. afterall, people once thought the universe revolved around the earth. and people once though that miniature humans were passed down generation to generation and that's how genetic traits were passed (i kid you not, some people thought this!). and hey, some people think that guns are evil and should be banned, but i know that they just don't have all of the information." to be continued......
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:36:28 PM EDT
A public education system has inherent in it a great power to indoctrinate young people. In most other countries it is the primary reason for the existance of such a system, the actual instruction of students merely second. The US, buy having a decentralized system of public education has largely avoided this. Largely Right now the education system in this country is performing at far below its optimum level. It is paralyzed by a culture war between conservative Christians and a secular majority. The conservative Christians WANT to take control of the ability to indoctrinate young people. When they cannot, they use whatever influence they do have to sabotage any attempts to teach anything contrary to their religous beliefs. In doing so, the quality of education for all students suffers. I know that many here don't want to beleve this but it is quite true.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:37:04 PM EDT
The thing is, creationism needs to be attacked because it's trying to establish itself as science while it has no good material fundation to support it. If people want to believe in Creationism as part of their faith, then fine. But if they're trying to establish it as a viable scientific theory, then it needs to be attacked relentlessly until it can no longer be attacked on empirical grounds. That's how science works, skepticism is the foundation of good science. Any good theory would have to be disprovable, and withstand the attacks of those trying to disprove it. For those trying to promote creationism, you have to decide, what do you want creationism to be. Faith or science, because if you want to establish it as a scientific theory then you have to get used to the attacks. Welcome to the world of western science.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:37:18 PM EDT
I don't care to have beliefs based in fear and superstition placed on me, knocking on my door, running my country, teaching my kids o0r anything else. It's a relic from the ancient world, appealing to the timeless emotion of fear and the need to assign self importance to our existance.
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you really have no idea what Christianity is if that's what you think it is.
Self deception has no limits.
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apparently neither does self-righteousness. and to answer the question: creationism is not based on good science. the one thing about Creationist Christians that apalls me is their lack of use of science to support one belief(saying it isn't necessary to prove with secondary sources what the Bible says as the Bible is the inerrant word of God), but their absolute insistence on its perfection in support of another belief (evolution isn't valid because it doesn't follow good science. fine, but which is it? you either have to follow good science or you don't. either way Christians come off as hypocrites on this issue.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:41:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MIerinMD:
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: People are against you because to follow your doctrine would destroy our country economicly. That is all.
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Of course, and all atheistic workers paradises have done nothing but prosper. Soviet Union, Romania, Cambodia... would you care for me to continue? Geez, if you're anti-religion at least argue your point well.
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and that my friends is a logical fallacy called hazy generalization......
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:48:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: I'm no expert in these matters. However, I've read that in debates with equally qualified opponents, the Darwinians usually lose !!
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You've read wrong.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:50:23 PM EDT
As evidence of the lack of logic on the Creationist side of the argument, I present the oft-repeated and incredibly, inanely stupid assertion by the local Creationists that accepting evolution=atheism. This is nothing but a lie...a blatant, knowing lie. Not to mention a straw-man argument.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:59:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 7:04:31 PM EDT by M4]
Originally Posted By M4: I don't care to have beliefs based in fear and superstition placed on me, knocking on my door, running my country, teaching my kids or anything else. It's a relic from the ancient world, appealing to the timeless emotion of fear and the need to assign self importance to our existance.
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Originally posted by ARlady: you really have no idea what Christianity is if that's what you think it is.
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Yeah, that's [i]exactly[/i] what I think....and if that impression doesn't sound acceptable to you, then you have only Christians to thank for it. It was they who instilled this in my world of experience. An existance of living all over this country and traveling all over the world, which has afforded me a perspective uncommon to most. Not better, but certainly much more varied. The Christian attitude, in general, is full of this sentiment. Not a new phenomenon ARlady, Christian history is filled with examples of this. Got to admit, it takes balls to even attempt to argue it.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:07:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
... smacks of insecurities in your own life and an overzealousness to prove your own beliefs.
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Well, yes it does. The more logical minds do not understand how an intelligent person can just decide to believe something, despite evidence against the idea. Evidence that goes unanswered. It it not understood why you deliberately choose to refuse to question - and that baffles and frustrates a logical mind.
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I stare at network traffic and binary data, so I'd like to think I have a logical mind. And with my logical mind I believe in God. Evolution takes just as much faith to believe as creationism. There are some significant genetic links between the different types of creatures that supposedly evolved into man that have yet to be explained by so-called missing links. Furthermore, it appears that during the evolutions of these species that the previous species died off to be completely replaced by the more advanced. How does one explain that without a leap of faith? So, the only difference between myself and someone who believes in evolution is which way our leaps of faith take us, right? Believe me, there isn't a day that goes by I don't question things, my faith included. And so far my faith has held fast. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:13:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4:
Originally Posted By M4: I don't care to have beliefs based in fear and superstition placed on me, knocking on my door, running my country, teaching my kids or anything else. It's a relic from the ancient world, appealing to the timeless emotion of fear and the need to assign self importance to our existance.
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Originally posted by ARlady: you really have no idea what Christianity is if that's what you think it is.
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Yeah, that's [i]exactly[/i] what I think....and if that impression doesn't sound acceptable to you, then you have only Christians to thank for it. It was they who instilled this in my world of experience. An existance of living all over this country and traveling all over the world, which has afforded me a perspective uncommon to most. Not better, but certainly much more varied. The Christian attitude, in general, is full of this sentiment.
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oh, yeah, sure. you are not responsible for your opinions and beliefs. it's always "those Christians'" fault, isn't it? damn them, they always make me dislike them. [rolleyes] it's perfectably acceptable opinion...because it's exactly what i would expect from someone who hasn't the foggiest idea what Christianity is all about. the Christian attitude isn't full of this sentiment. it is merely your perception of the Christian attitude that makes it seem that way. not to mention that you are so blinded by hatred for Christians that you would change your opinion of a man upon finding out that he was Christian. and then you would use your opinion to justify your hatred. when you're predisposed to disliking someone for whatever reason, of course you're never going to find any redeeming qualities about them. you never give them the chance to prove that any reality exists other than your simple perception of it. the problem with people who pass judgement on Christians is that they use Christians as the standard with which to judge Christianity. humans are not the standard. Christ is.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:15:42 PM EDT
So if your Christian evidently you care nothing for education but would rather chase fairytales,(I doubt it seeing as I hold two degrees myself) while I'm waiting for proof of that here's a point to ponder(and disprove). Our amateur built the Ark, your well educated professionals built Titanic.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:17:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 7:18:19 PM EDT by M4]
Originally Posted By M4: The fear these people live by must be staggering.....I can only imagine. It's the fear of lifes big, unanswered questions that forces the assigning of such rediculous and improbable explantions as "god did it". Where did we come from? Why are we here? What happens when we die? It's questions like that, that drive people to the least likely conclusions....."There must be a god", because admitting that we have no idea what the real answers are terrifies people.
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Originally Posted By ARLady: LOL! you've got it all backwards. Christians don't have fear of the unknown. for them there is no unknown. we can debate till we turn blue in the face whether their beliefs are correct, but they do not believe out of fear. it is the belief in God and his Son that takes the fear out of life.
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We can go back and fourth ad infinitum, it is my feeling however that for anyone to devote such a fervent belief system in something as improbable and kooky as the idea of a "god", with no proof of that god what so ever, the forces that prompt a need for such an emotional craving is rooted in something very strong, and it isn't "the truth" that are the roots. If truth were the roots, then the outcome wouldn't be some unproveable supernatural entity and belief system based on that entity....that would not satisfy that need. And if it's not truth, what exactly do people get from religion? Comfort. And what is that comfort for? The fear of the unknown, that many can not handle NOT having an explanation for. I'm sure you feel you're WAY beyond that. Far too strong of a person to ever accept that fear has anything to do with it. I'd simply say that you're affraid. Affraid, or just incapable of questioning the logical conclusions of what your own faith is based on.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:24:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
... smacks of insecurities in your own life and an overzealousness to prove your own beliefs.
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Well, yes it does. The more logical minds do not understand how an intelligent person can just decide to believe something, despite evidence against the idea. Evidence that goes unanswered. It it not understood why you deliberately choose to refuse to question - and that baffles and frustrates a logical mind.
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I stare at network traffic and binary data, so I'd like to think I have a logical mind. And with my logical mind I believe in God. Evolution takes just as much faith to believe as creationism. There are some significant genetic links between the different types of creatures that supposedly evolved into man that have yet to be explained by so-called missing links. Furthermore, it appears that during the evolutions of these species that the previous species died off to be completely replaced by the more advanced. How does one explain that without a leap of faith?
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it's called extinction. or in some cases it's merely an on-going accumulation of changes in the species that results in what appears to our simplified view of the natural world and our simplified ways of categorizing it and understanding it to be a different species. it's really very simple. human civilations have experienced a very similar process so it isn't really all that much of a leap of faith to understand the idea. and please don't tell me that you're naive enough to believe that absence of evidence is the same as evidence of absence. in other words, lack of evidence supporting the theory of evolution does not equate to evidence that it is false. by your belief in God you already admit that there need not be unequivocable evidence supporting the existence of something for said something to exist. there are so many mis-statements about evolution on this website that it's no wonder some of you think it's a bunch of bullshit.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:25:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARLady: oh, yeah, sure. you are not responsible for your opinions and beliefs. it's always "those Christians'" fault, isn't it? damn them, they always make me dislike them. [rolleyes] it's perfectably acceptable opinion...because it's exactly what i would expect from someone who hasn't the foggiest idea what Christianity is all about.
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I never said I wasn't responsible for my own opinions. I certainly am, and quite capable of forming them with intelligence. Do you form opinions without regard to your own experiences? Try not to be such a condescending ass, k? And as for your insights as to my experiences with Christianity. Do you know me? What about how I've spent my life for 33 years? And with whom? How about what I've studied? You don't know me, so don't presume....no matter how good it might make you feel.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:35:01 PM EDT
Scientific proof? That demands scientific proof based on true science. Neither evolution or creation can be considered true or false based on true science. Neither can be proved based on science. I think the argument comes from who we think we are accountable to, or who we think may hold us accountable. Absolutely no other reason for some to go so ballistic over a bunch of poor, dumb, ignorant Bible believers. NMSight
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:35:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 7:37:27 PM EDT by M4]
Originally Posted By ARLady: the Christian attitude isn't full of this sentiment. it is merely your perception of the Christian attitude that makes it seem that way. not to mention that you are so blinded by hatred for Christians that you would change your opinion of a man upon finding out that he was Christian. and then you would use your opinion to justify your hatred. when you're predisposed to disliking someone for whatever reason, of course you're never going to find any redeeming qualities about them. you never give them the chance to prove that any reality exists other than your simple perception of it. the problem with people who pass judgement on Christians is that they use Christians as the standard with which to judge Christianity. humans are not the standard. Christ is.
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Blinded by hatred for Christians? My [I]MOTHER[/I] is Christian, and I love and respect her like I love and respect no other. And you have the balls to tell [i]me[/i] that [i]I[/i] pass judgement? You don't know what the hell you're talking about and that statement undoubtedly proves it. And as for my "simple perception of reality"? Which perception is that? The simple minded opinion that an unseen, unproven, supernatural entity doesn't exist? Do you believe yourself to be "simple minded" because [i]you[/i] don't believe in Oden, or Thor, or Isis? Why not? And why would I be simple minded not to believe in [i]your[/i] god? Hypocricy ARLady, is not a virtue. Get over yourself.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:41:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4:
Originally Posted By ARLady: LOL! you've got it all backwards. Christians don't have fear of the unknown. for them there is no unknown. we can debate till we turn blue in the face whether their beliefs are correct, but they do not believe out of fear. it is the belief in God and his Son that takes the fear out of life.
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We can go back and fourth ad infinitum, it is my feeling however that for anyone to devote such a fervent belief system in something as improbable and kooky as the idea of a "god", with no proof of that god what so ever, the forces that prompt a need for such an emotional craving is rooted in something very strong, and it isn't "the truth" that are the roots. If truth were the roots, then the outcome wouldn't be some unproveable supernatural entity and belief system based on that entity....that would not satisfy that need. And if it's not truth, what exactly do people get from religion? Comfort. And what is that comfort for? The fear of the unknown, that many can not handle NOT having an explanation for. I'm sure you feel you're WAY beyond that. Far too strong of a person to ever accept that fear has anything to do with it. I'd simply say that you're affraid. Affraid, or just incapable of questioning the logical conclusions of what your own faith is based on.
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with all due respect, YOUR opinion about belief in Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) hardly makes it fact. i don't deny that a fear of sorts is involved in the mindset. but it's not a fear of the unknown, it's not a fear of humans' inability to answer the "big" questions about the meaning of life. it's not even a fear unless one already believes in the existence of God and Jesus Christ. the only fear involved is one of spending eternity in Hell. so you see, one would have to believe in God and Jesus Christ to have a fear of Hell, now, wouldn't he? thus fear is NOT the root of belief, as one must believe before one can feel fear. and as you know nothing about my personal beliefs, i'm a bit surprised at your presumptuous assumptions regarding my motivation and my responses to your posts. i'm not afraid (only one "f" there) of the unkown. i'm big enough to admit i don't know, but i don't fear it. i'm not "beyond" anything. and frankly you haven't the vaguest notion about my concerns or questions about the basis of Christianity. your statement regarding that part just goes to show that you think all Chrstians (since you assume i am one) are egotistical people who think they're perfect in their religion and perfect in their beliefs. that's like saying all gunowners are evil and crminials. some are; the vast majority aren't. methinks you refuse to see anything but the former and disregard all evidence of the latter. you should be careful of letting your intense negative feelings towards something cloud your LOGICAL analysis of it. after all, isn't that what you despise so much in Christians? that they aren't logical enough? sounds to me like you're basing all of your arguments on your emotions. not necessarily a bad thing, but incredibly hypocritical when you condemn it in other people and practice it yourself.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:46:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARLady: frankly, i grow tired of the "there's no evidence for God" argument. cuz ya know what? there's no evidence AGAINST HIM either. now how ya like them apples?
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Yeah, as there's no evidence against: Achilles Actaeon Adonis Aeneas Aesclepius Agni Ajax Ammon Antaeus Anubis Apollo Ares Atlas Atum Bacchus Balder Bellerophon Bes Bishamon Boreas Cephalus Cernunnos Charon Cronus Cupid Daikoku Deucalion Dionysus Ebisu El Endovelicus Endymion Eros Fukurokuju Ganesha Ganymede Glaucus Hades Hanuman Hapi Haroeris Hector Hephaestus Heracles Hermaphroditus Hermes Horus Hotei Hyacinthus Icarus Imhotep Jason Jupiter Jurojin Kanaloa Khensu Khnum Kinich Kokopelli Laocoon Leander Lugh Maitreya Mars Marsyas Meleager Mercury Mithras Narcissus Odin Oedipus Orestes Orpheus Osiris Pan Pericles Perseus Pluto Polynices Poseidon Priapus Prometheus Ptah Quetzalcoatl Ra Rama Saturn Serapis Shango Shiva Sigurd Silenus Theseus Thoth Tithonus or Tlaloc. Any reason you don't believe in them too? After all, there's no evidence that they don't exist either. Hell, if some old book says so, why don't we all just believe it? Amazing that such an example needs to be drawn to illustrate the weakness of the "there's no evidence god [i]doesn't[/i] exist" statement.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:49:58 PM EDT
I used to think that only simple minded fools believed in God, gods or goddesses. I recently read a fascinating article that told how the religious experience has been traced to just a few chemicals in the brain. A study was done. Those found to have a naturally low amount of those chemicals were also found to be non religious. The reverse was also found to be true. Simple as that. Case closed. All those "God fearing" kooks we all know and wonder about aren't to blame. They can't help it. It's like being gay, a psychopath or a chronic drunk. It's genetic. After reading that study I dislike them a bit less. Now if I can just find a chemical that gets them to shut up about Jesus. Gawd damn.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:53:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4: And as for your insights as to my experiences with Christianity. Do you know me? What about how I've spent my life for 33 years? And with whom? How about what I've studied? You don't know me, so don't presume....no matter how good it might make you feel.
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i believe you would do well to apply this statement to yourself since you seem so willing to make presumptions about my beliefs as well.
And as for my "simple perception of reality"? Which perception is that? The simple minded opinion that an unseen, unproven, supernatural entity doesn't exist? Do you believe yourself to be "simple minded" because you don't believe in Oden, or Thor, or Isis? Why not? And why would I be simple minded not to believe in your god? Hypocricy ARLady, is not a virtue. Get over yourself.
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i'm not under myself. seriously, the "simple perception" statement meant only that one person's perception of the world can hardly encompass the entire reality of it. nothing more. what you think is true based on your experiences doesn't necessarily make it true. that's what i meant by simple. hatred may have been too strong. but i think you're showing an extreme dislike towards those who believe in a supreme being. you do pass judgement. every time you say that people who believe in a supreme being are delusional and irrational you are passing judgement. what did you think it was? constructive criticism? i don't have a problem with your opinions (other than the fact that some are based on false perceptions). i have a problem with the holier-than-thou attitude you convey when you share them. your tone connotes a complete disregard for believers and carries a very condescending note. pass judgement all you want. just don't sit there and tell me you don't do it. and don't whine like a baby when someone debates you on it. my question to you is this: how can you love and respect somebody you think is full of shit and making a decision out of complete and irrational fear? i don't ask this to flame. but you've done nothing but denigrate Christians in your recent posts. am i to assume that those same negative feelings don't also apply to your mother? or are you holding her in a separate category for some reason? i'm trying to understand what appears to be a completely contradictory stance. not flaming. i think you might be taking this post a little too seriously though. you got awfully angry in that last post. i swear i could see a vein throbbing in your forehead. [;)]
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 7:59:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4:
Originally Posted By ARLady: frankly, i grow tired of the "there's no evidence for God" argument. cuz ya know what? there's no evidence AGAINST HIM either. now how ya like them apples?
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Yeah, as there's no evidence against: Achilles Actaeon Adonis Aeneas Aesclepius Agni Ajax Ammon Antaeus Anubis Apollo Ares Atlas Atum Bacchus Balder Bellerophon Bes Bishamon Boreas Cephalus Cernunnos Charon Cronus Cupid Daikoku Deucalion Dionysus Ebisu El Endovelicus Endymion Eros Fukurokuju Ganesha Ganymede Glaucus Hades Hanuman Hapi Haroeris Hector Hephaestus Heracles Hermaphroditus Hermes Horus Hotei Hyacinthus Icarus Imhotep Jason Jupiter Jurojin Kanaloa Khensu Khnum Kinich Kokopelli Laocoon Leander Lugh Maitreya Mars Marsyas Meleager Mercury Mithras Narcissus Odin Oedipus Orestes Orpheus Osiris Pan Pericles Perseus Pluto Polynices Poseidon Priapus Prometheus Ptah Quetzalcoatl Ra Rama Saturn Serapis Shango Shiva Sigurd Silenus Theseus Thoth Tithonus or Tlaloc. Any reason you don't believe in them too? After all, there's no evidence that they don't exist either. Hell, if some old book says so, why don't we all just believe it? Amazing that such an example needs to be drawn to illustrate the weakness of the "there's no evidence god [i]doesn't[/i] exist" statement.
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i think you missed my point. and yet your post here supports it. i wasn't saying that because there's no evidence that He doesn't exist it means that he does. i was simply saying that a lack of evidence is not evidence of absence. the argument works both ways and i think that both are completely valid. and yet both points are, as you said, weak standing alone (not just the one i made!!!!!). yet funny how those who try to disprove the existence of God by focusing on a lack of evidence for His existence) only use one. i think one has to look at [b]both[/b] points to understand the nature of God (or the lack thereof perhaps). that's all. fwiw, all those names you mentioned aren't PROOF that God doesn't exist. afterall, we'd have to prove that at least one of them DID/DOES exist and that's impossible. so they can't possibly be proof that God doesn't exist, can they?
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 8:05:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: If it weren't for the Christian right and the corossive effect they have on the public education system here in this country, American busnesses wouldn't have to be helping Chinese, Korean, Indian, Japanese, and Russian engineers, programmers, computer technicians, mathmaticians. We would have no shortage of our own, home grown high tech worker.
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No way.....Armd[b]Lbrl[/b] didn't really just say this, did he?
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 8:08:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 8:13:45 PM EDT by M4]
Originally Posted By ARLady: you should be careful of letting your intense negative feelings towards something cloud your LOGICAL analysis of it. after all, isn't that what you despise so much in Christians? that they aren't logical enough? sounds to me like you're basing all of your arguments on your emotions. not necessarily a bad thing, but incredibly hypocritical when you condemn it in other people and practice it yourself.
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Despise Christians? You're going to want to actually [i]read[/i] my posts from here on out if you want to comment accurately. I don't recall saying that. I have many Christian friends and family members, and yes, they know my opinions as I know theirs. Despising them or me isn't a part of it....but it sure helps you paint a pleasant picture of me for your own purposes, doesn't it?[;)]
Originally posted by ARLady: i'm not afraid (only one "f" there)
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A misspelling!! And you were kind enough to make a point of it. To take to time to actually point out that error of mine. No, you're not an ass, what was I thinking? Everybody does exactly that....takes the time, in the middle of dialog, to point out their correct spelling of a single word, misspelled by another person. Gee, I wonder what your motivations are? Information? Dialog? Conversation? Or just being an ass? Rhetorical questions, I have a feeling I need to tell you that.
Oroiginally posted by ARLady: you should be careful of letting your intense negative feelings towards something cloud your LOGICAL analysis of it. after all, isn't that what you despise so much in Christians?
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What intense negative feelings are you even talking about? You play your game of attempting to paint me as some Christian hating person, clouded and despising Christians. Thinking someone is full of shit, and despising them are two totally different things. Easy distinction, for me at least. Let me repost the quote of mine you claim is so "full of intense negative feelings" so you can point out where your comments come from. You're the only one refering to "despising" anyone, not me. Again, get over yourself(insert theme to Mission Impossible *here*). Here's the quote of mine, full of those "intense negative feelings". Or are they viewed as such by you simply because you disagree? Again, rhetorical.... [b]We can go back and fourth ad infinitum, it is my feeling however that for anyone to devote such a fervent belief system in something as improbable and kooky as the idea of a "god", with no proof of that god what so ever, the forces that prompt a need for such an emotional craving is rooted in something very strong, and it isn't "the truth" that are the roots. If truth were the roots, then the outcome wouldn't be some unproveable supernatural entity and belief system based on that entity....that would not satisfy that need. And if it's not truth, what exactly do people get from religion? Comfort. And what is that comfort for? The fear of the unknown, that many can not handle NOT having an explanation for. I'm sure you feel you're WAY beyond that. Far too strong of a person to ever accept that fear has anything to do with it. I'd simply say that you're affraid. Affraid, or just incapable of questioning the logical conclusions of what your own faith is based on.[/b]
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 8:09:11 PM EDT
Proof positive y'all can carry on a religious fracas WITHOUT me. Carry on.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 8:11:59 PM EDT
[img]http://www.catholicsupply.com/christmas/_borders/34414.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 8:19:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 8:39:36 PM EDT
Anyone who reads what the Book of Daniel and the Book of the Revealtion have to say, and has any understanding of history, must logically conclude that what is written in those books is true. And if what is written in those two books is true, there MUST be [a] God, and what the REST of the Bible says is true also---but I would say that it must be read with a certain understanding of what is Gospel and what is not. Creationism is just as valid a theory as any and cannot be repudiated by any science. The problem with so many fundamentalsist beliefs is that they ignore certain things, sauch as when God says "a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years." A tough thing to swallow, but this means that time is irrelevant. Jesus said "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." Time is irrelevant, it does not exist. While some Christians are out on a limb with their beliefs, at least they have something to hold on to. Beats the alternative. What's the difference in outcomes between the scenario where atheists are right and the scenario where I am right? Jesus Christ IS the Son of God, and anyone who chooses to not believe is free to do so. For now.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 8:43:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 8:44:50 PM EDT by M4]
Originally Posted By ARLady: hatred may have been too strong. but i think you're showing an extreme dislike towards those who believe in a supreme being.
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Not a dislike. I don't dislike Christians any more for their personal belief in a "god" than I dislike someone who really, truly believes in Bigfoot. Just people believing in something I believe doesn't exist. No hatred at all.
Originally Posted By ARLady: you do pass judgement. every time you say that people who believe in a supreme being are delusional and irrational you are passing judgement.
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Correct. It's my opinion that it IS irrational and illogical. Delusional might be a stretch. Why [i]you[/i] are calling [i]me[/i] on passing judgement, I can't figure out. It would make sense if you yourself weren't guilty of the same, but you are. So why you're making a point of it I'm not sure.
Originally Posted By ARLady: what did you think it was? constructive criticism? i don't have a problem with your opinions (other than the fact that some are based on false perceptions). i have a problem with the holier-than-thou attitude you convey when you share them. your tone connotes a complete disregard for believers and carries a very condescending note.
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1) My purpose is not always to provide constructive critisism. When I don't, I'm not losing sleep over it. 2) As for my "holier-than-thou disregard and condescention" I would say I can see how you might read that in to what I have been writing. I know myself and my intentions, and I can confidently say you are largely wrong.
Originally Posted By ARLady: and don't whine like a baby when someone debates you on it.
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I'll do my best.
Originally Posted By ARLady: my question to you is this: how can you love and respect somebody you think is full of shit and making a decision out of complete and irrational fear? Am i to assume that those same negative feelings don't also apply to your mother? or are you holding her in a separate category for some reason? i'm trying to understand what appears to be a completely contradictory stance. not flaming.
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No, I don't hold her "belief" in any different opinion than I do with anyone else I know who believes as she does. Yes, I think she's "full of shit" in her belief of god. The difference is that I most likely wouldn't phrase it exactly like that to her, but not much different. She is so far above any other human being I have ever known, she has earned a 1000 times the respect the average random on the Internet has with me. That shouldn't come as any real shock to anyone here and makes perfect sense to me. All I can tell you is that despite our differences of opinion, I love her so much. There's so much more to her than this subject, my love for her is unquestioned. And yes, I do hold her in a seperate catagory, because she desrves to be there. (cont....)
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 8:44:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARLady: i think you might be taking this post a little too seriously though. you got awfully angry in that last post. i swear i could see a vein throbbing in your forehead. [;)]
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No throbbing veins, I swear. And let me say this before I drift off in to the arms of Morpheus. My vigor and opions may have cast a less than great impression of me at times, and I apologize for any disrespect that may have been expressed or perceived. It's times like this when I'm so thankful that Christians hold forgiveness in such high regard.[;)]
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 8:49:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
from zonan: The "more logical minds"? Are you more logical than Isaac Newton? C.S. Lewis? Chesterton? I can understand someone not jumping on to a religious bandwagon "just because", but it really is a mental midget who claims, "there is nothing beyond what we see."
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Why is it then, that I have a real hard time getting Christians to admit ambiguities when they try to square their beliefs with known science fact, stonewalling with "It isn't our place to question" or even worse "You scare me."
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Which Christians? Do they happen to be inbred hicks from some backwards amish town? Anyone that uses statements like "you scare me" or "it isn't our place to question" when confronted with facts is a fool no matter what their faith is. I have never heard anyone use them, and I am a Christian, so I really am interested to know where you found them. They sound as foolish as anyone that says "evolution is fact" or "there is nothing beyond what we see."
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 8:53:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4: It's my opinion that [belief in a supreme being] IS irrational and illogical. Delusional might be a stretch.
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Smarter men than you and I have believed in a supreme being, so they must be able to separate their "irrational and illogical" views on spiritual matters from their brilliant contributions to science and art?
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 8:58:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:03:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 9:09:09 PM EDT by GodBlessTexas]
Originally Posted By ARLady: and please don't tell me that you're naive enough to believe that absence of evidence is the same as evidence of absence. in other words, lack of evidence supporting the theory of evolution does not equate to evidence that it is false.
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And you're implying something I did not say. I merely said there was a lack of evidence connecting two species of homonids. And if it's about extinction, then where is the evolution? Evolution is not the dying out of one species to be replaced by another, but a species that changes into another with noted changed between the two. As it stands, there are still some key missing links between the different species of homonids that do not show these characteristic changes over time.
by your belief in God you already admit that there need not be unequivocable evidence supporting the existence of something for said something to exist.
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And that, dear lady, was [b]exactly[/b] my point for those who think I'm a fool for not believing in evolution. Evolution offers no more of a concise picture than creationism, yet I'm supposed to accept those who bash it. I do believe in natural selection, as there is evidence to it. What I do not believe is that one day a reptile with gills jumped on land and started breathing air, or that a monkey one day picked up a skull of his departed friend and started spouting something along the lines of Shakespeare. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... edited to fix quotes
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:08:09 PM EDT
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