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Posted: 6/15/2002 6:45:44 PM EDT
[#1]
Hmm-I think they only collect a casing-but um, "someone I know" just brought a rifle in from out of state and there was no casing. It may only apply to handguns...
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Posted: 6/15/2002 6:52:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Yes it's only the casing. It was passed when NY enacted the same ban as the feds with regards to assault weapons. Last place I'd ever take advice from would be T&T.
As far as how they treat lower receivers with regard to this fingerprinting I'm not sure. And actually come to think of it, I believe fingerprinting only holds for handguns, so, he's really full of it.. :) BuLLet |
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Posted: 6/15/2002 7:05:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Are you sure about that? Just last week I had a AR lower and an Eagle Arms complete AR shipped in with no problems. The EA was unfired also. Coincidentally, it was T&T in Floral Park.
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Posted: 6/15/2002 7:06:44 PM EDT
[#4]
Only applies to handguns-what a moron this guy is-and only a casing, not a bullet
[url=]http://www.troopers.state.ny.us/Firearms/Cobis/Cobisindex.html[/url] 18.4 Responsibilities of Manufacturers (9 NYCRR Section 493.4) On or after March 1, 2001, any manufacturer that ships, transports or delivers a pistol or revolver to any person in this state shall include in the container with such pistol or revolver, a ballistic sample discharged from such firearm. Ballistic samples shall be enclosed in an approved container properly completed and sealed in accordance with the instructions outlined in this section. Ballistic Sample For purposes of a manufacturer's requirements under this Rule, a Ballistic Sample is a shell casing of a bullet or projectile discharged from a specific, identified pistol or revolver. Provided, however, that a Ballistic Sample obtained by a dealer participation at a regional CoBIS center shall consist of two shell casings of bullets or projectiles discharged from a specific, identified pistol or revolver |
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Posted: 6/15/2002 7:20:08 PM EDT
[#5]
yah, only applies to handguns.
I had to have that done to the M9 I got. It pissed the State Police off more than it did my FFL :) It's completly useless as a forensic tool, and it does nothing but waste the SP's time (this is according to the SP's who did it)...alas, it's some dork's law, so no one can touch it just yet. Ed [edited, because apparently, was = waste...] |
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Posted: 6/15/2002 7:20:59 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Are you sure about that? Just last week I had a AR lower and an Eagle Arms complete AR shipped in with no problems. The EA was unfired also. Coincidentally, it was T&T in Floral Park. Ditto. I had 2 Bushy lowers shipped from Bushmaster to the Floral Park T&T. Which one did you get this info from? Seaford or Floral Park. I'd be REALLY surprised if Stan from Floral Park said this to you. |
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Posted: 6/15/2002 7:24:46 PM EDT
[#7]
Actually I think that they can match casings to pistols by the markings on the casing from the extractor and chamber area (assuming they are the same). But I wonder how these are cataloged? Not much use to finding a 9mm casing at a scene if there are just piles of 9mm casings at the various CoBIS centers.
The legislature originally tried to make the law require a fired bullet be turned over, but fortunately they could not get away with it politically-probably because of the expense. I heard a rumor that the state had even bought bullet catches for this purpose that are sitting around somewhere now-don't know if that's true |
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Posted: 6/15/2002 7:39:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Actually I think that they can match casings to pistols by the markings on the casing from the extractor and chamber area (assuming they are the same). But I wonder how these are cataloged? Not much use to finding a 9mm casing at a scene if there are just piles of 9mm casings at the various CoBIS centers. The legislature originally tried to make the law require a fired bullet be turned over, but fortunately they could not get away with it politically-probably because of the expense. I heard a rumor that the state had even bought bullet catches for this purpose that are sitting around somewhere now-don't know if that's true All true, but the reason this is a waste of time is the same reasont he bullet caching was a waste of time: Too many damn casings. :) Now instead of having an original, and hoping to find the pistol that it matches, they now have literally thousands of things to test it against. It'll take *Weeks* to make a match...and in that time, whoever was being held for a crime (assuming the moron was stupid enough to commit a crime with a registered handgun) will walk from lack of evidence, and disappear. I've yet to even *hear* about a person in NY with a legally registered and owned handgun using it for a crime (unless you count self-defense as a crime.) I've no doubt it's happened with some of the dumber members of our population, but still.. Ed |
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Posted: 6/15/2002 7:43:51 PM EDT
[#9]
Its a silly law....Revolvers don't leave casings [smoke]
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Posted: 6/15/2002 7:46:49 PM EDT
[#10]
I agree, I bet there are just piles of cases in storage rooms somewhere that no one looks at once they are received.
I have seen that pistols used in crimes here mostly come from out of state and were never registered or are stolen. I suppose with a stolen NY gun there could be a 1 in gazillion chance it might do some good-maybe if it was a .41 mag or something a little rarer. |
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Posted: 6/15/2002 7:52:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Excellent point about the bad guys using STOLEN guns. What use is ballistic fingerprinting if the gun is stolen? All they can prove then is "yep that bad guy" used a stolen gun [BD]
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Posted: 6/15/2002 8:31:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Just for the sake of discussion, if you were dead set on committing a crime with a registered handgun, couldn't you polish or do some slight grinding(not enough to effect performance) to the aforementioned parts so the casing(s) left behind wouldn't match anything in the forensic database? This would be assuming there was no reason to suspect you and the investigation was riding more or less solely on the casing evidence.
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Posted: 6/15/2002 11:17:52 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Quoted: Are you sure about that? Just last week I had a AR lower and an Eagle Arms complete AR shipped in with no problems. The EA was unfired also. Coincidentally, it was T&T in Floral Park. Ditto. I had 2 Bushy lowers shipped from Bushmaster to the Floral Park T&T. Which one did you get this info from? Seaford or Floral Park. I'd be REALLY surprised if Stan from Floral Park said this to you. |
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Posted: 6/15/2002 11:23:17 PM EDT
[#14]
I would just go to the range and pickup a bunch of the relevent cases and throw on the ground. Might as well throw in a few revolver cases etc for good measure.
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Posted: 6/15/2002 11:45:40 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Are you sure about that? Just last week I had a AR lower and an Eagle Arms complete AR shipped in with no problems. The EA was unfired also. Coincidentally, it was T&T in Floral Park. It was stanley from Floral Park, just went there in Person this afternoon. I did not do this over the phone. There were some customers massing in the back (4 of us) listening to him preach about this as I attempted to explain to him why a lower reciever cant be finger printed. He then told me it was just how the state government worked. So not only did he attempt to brainwash me, but the 3 others who were in the shop which I am convinced he succeeded on. |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 12:02:37 AM EDT
[#16]
For those 2 of you who said they purchased lowers from Stan, did you get him to order them for you, or did you buy them on your own and have them transferred through him? I wanted an RRA stripped lower and this might be why he is hassling me.
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Posted: 6/16/2002 12:55:13 AM EDT
[#17]
[qoute]
I would just go to the range and pickup a bunch of the relevent cases and throw on the ground. Might as well throw in a few revolver cases etc for good measure. [/quote] I agree- I always thought that would be the best way to fubar the forensics-drop a couple of handfulls of brass you picked up at the range. |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 4:32:21 AM EDT
[#18]
The law only applies to NEW pisotols revolvers. Used guns don't have to have the casing turned in. My FFL has to take a trip to a NYS trooper regional office where they do this. What a monumental waste of time, money and energy for us both.
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Posted: 6/16/2002 5:02:19 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: For those 2 of you who said they purchased lowers from Stan, did you get him to order them for you, or did you buy them on your own and have them transferred through him? I wanted an RRA stripped lower and this might be why he is hassling me. My lower was bought directly from BM by me. The EA-15 was a private purchase (an-unfired NIB preban for 700.00..[:D]). Neither was purchased through T&T, they merely facilitated the FFL transfer. |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 5:22:05 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: For those 2 of you who said they purchased lowers from Stan, did you get him to order them for you, or did you buy them on your own and have them transferred through him? I wanted an RRA stripped lower and this might be why he is hassling me. I actually had him order the 2 lowers for me from Bushmaster. I can't believe he's hassling you like this. Business must be slow at the moment. |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 5:56:08 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Just for the sake of discussion, if you were dead set on committing a crime with a registered handgun, couldn't you polish or do some slight grinding(not enough to effect performance) to the aforementioned parts so the casing(s) left behind wouldn't match anything in the forensic database? This would be assuming there was no reason to suspect you and the investigation was riding more or less solely on the casing evidence. You can legally replace the slide, extractor, barrel and firing pin, leaving 0 original pieces that leave markings on the casing. Of course, this would be even more humorous in the case of an AR, where you could simply sell the upper with no paper trail and buy a replacement that would be exempt from this requirement. Yet another case where the politicians create a law without the input of experts in the field they're trying to "help". But we shouldn't be too hard on the politicians. It can't be easy growing up wearing an orange helmet and riding on the short bus. |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 7:32:18 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted: For those 2 of you who said they purchased lowers from Stan, did you get him to order them for you, or did you buy them on your own and have them transferred through him? I wanted an RRA stripped lower and this might be why he is hassling me. I actually had him order the 2 lowers for me from Bushmaster. I can't believe he's hassling you like this. Business must be slow at the moment. Id figure if business was slow, he wouldnt throw this bullshit at me. He should be nice to me so i go there again, which i wouldve since its closer than my usual gun store, Hunter Sports. I also like how on the phone he quoted me one price for a transfer 10% of the cost of the Lower, then when i go to the store he tells me $35 for the transfer, and $35 for the bullet ID. He will never see a dime of my money ever after this. |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 7:48:05 AM EDT
[#23]
*Shakes his head* I Feel for yah, man...
Well, do this: They want to get a bullet from it? Fine. Hand them the lower and tell them to have fun. (Note: I didn't say anything about giving them the Upper [;)] ) Oh...when he goes to the NYSP to do the firing? If you can, go with him. When the cops tell your FFL that he's on crack and they'll only test handguns, you aughta be there to hear it. It should make the whole thing worth it. |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 9:23:47 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: *Shakes his head* I Feel for yah, man... Well, do this: They want to get a bullet from it? Fine. Hand them the lower and tell them to have fun. (Note: I didn't say anything about giving them the Upper [;)] ) Oh...when he goes to the NYSP to do the firing? If you can, go with him. When the cops tell your FFL that he's on crack and they'll only test handguns, you aughta be there to hear it. It should make the whole thing worth it. |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 1:55:37 PM EDT
[#25]
T and T will do anything they can to make a few extra bucks and this sounds likea ploy.
Use LRB in Floral Park - better service, better prices. And no one has been busted using this waste of life casing directory yet. |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 2:20:54 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: T and T will do anything they can to make a few extra bucks and this sounds likea ploy. Use LRB in Floral Park - better service, better prices. And no one has been busted using this waste of life casing directory yet. do you know the hours LRB is physically in his store? Last year i went there to discuss purchasing an MKS m14 reciever and he wasnt there three nights when his answering machine said he would be there. Was this just a one time thing? Is he the type of dealer wheere you have to make an appointment to come in? I noticed it was a suite in a building and possibly a part time job for this man |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 2:41:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Ok, if you are a pretty avid shooter and after putting say 2000 rnds or more through a handgun, would the markings on the casings still match the first enough to stand up in court? I know we're talkin bout brass vs. hardened steel here but as a machinist I've seen where brass has it's fair share of abrasive/polishing capabilities especially coupled with heat and some eventual contamination.
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Posted: 6/16/2002 2:50:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Quoted: Just for the sake of discussion, if you were dead set on committing a crime with a registered handgun, couldn't you polish or do some slight grinding(not enough to effect performance) to the aforementioned parts so the casing(s) left behind wouldn't match anything in the forensic database? I think what these How much difference can there be in a run of say 100 handguns, made on the same day, on the same machines? Yet another case where the politicians create a law without the input of experts in the field they're trying to "help". But we shouldn't be too hard on the politicians. It can't be easy growing up wearing an orange helmet and riding on the short bus. I'm a little more cynical than that. I have little doubt that the real intention is to hamper the manufacture and sale of firearms. |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 5:09:44 PM EDT
[#29]
I'm a little more cynical than that. I have little doubt that the real intention is to hamper the manufacture and sale of firearms. I think thats the point most everyone is making in the end, that this law is pointless when it comes to actually helping law enforcement in any real way, shape or form. It's simply politics. |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 5:18:37 PM EDT
[#30]
If I were a criminal in NY or MD (also requires ballistic ID), I'd just use a revolver.
But I guess all crooks are really dumb and just dump all of their empty casings at the scene. [rolleyes] |
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Posted: 6/16/2002 5:54:28 PM EDT
[#31]
The hours at LRB are a little sketchy, although Lou, the owner, is definitely helpful and reasonably priced at $25 per transfer. I only suggest it because its so close to T&T in Floral Park and any store (that is to say, T&T) that charges $549 for a CETME doesn't deserve customers.
As for the casing database, my friend ordered in a springfield 1911 from a dealer in Louisiana. When it came, there was no casing because springfield had not shipped it to NY. He had two choices: send the gun back to springfield for a test fire, or, have his dealer take it to the state police barracks in middletown, 75 miles away. He chose the former and it took six weeks to get it back. If you want to beat it, just go on ebay and get a new slide and barrel for your pistol. Commit your crime with your replacement slide, leave all the shell casings you want, then chuck the replacement slide off the GWB. The cops will be confounded when they test your gun and the casings don't match those left at the crime scene (different breech face and barrel marks). |
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Posted: 6/18/2002 5:39:52 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: The hours at LRB are a little sketchy, although Lou, the owner, is definitely helpful and reasonably priced at $25 per transfer. I only suggest it because its so close to T&T in Floral Park and any store (that is to say, T&T) that charges $549 for a CETME doesn't deserve customers. As for the casing database, my friend ordered in a springfield 1911 from a dealer in Louisiana. When it came, there was no casing because springfield had not shipped it to NY. He had two choices: send the gun back to springfield for a test fire, or, have his dealer take it to the state police barracks in middletown, 75 miles away. He chose the former and it took six weeks to get it back. If you want to beat it, just go on ebay and get a new slide and barrel for your pistol. Commit your crime with your replacement slide, leave all the shell casings you want, then chuck the replacement slide off the GWB. The cops will be confounded when they test your gun and the casings don't match those left at the crime scene (different breech face and barrel marks). Just went to LRB today. He was a very helpful guy, and did not try to mislead me in any way. He chuckled when i briefly mentioned TnT and the name Stan. We BS'd about the MKS m14 recievers and that he himself is getting his own line of ar15 lowers made for himself within the next few months. He showed me a rough product, and explained to me that all the lowers bsically come from one maker and are sold to colt, bushmaster armalite etc. |
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Posted: 6/19/2002 6:31:56 AM EDT
[#33]
His M14 receivers look great. He's got a half page ad in SN about them. I'll have to price out hom much it would cost to have one.
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Posted: 6/19/2002 10:12:17 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: His M14 receivers look great. He's got a half page ad in SN about them. I'll have to price out hom much it would cost to have one. He quoted me $595 dealer price. Not sure how much padding he will add on top of that to when he sells to the public. |
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Posted: 6/19/2002 10:18:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Who were you dealing with? A redish brown haired guy with glasses? He's full of shit and has been full of shit for a long time, even since I worked at Edelman's with him. He's a POS and you can tell him that Greg from Edelman's said so. Then go anywhere but there to complete your transfer, he's a dirt bag and you don't want him touching your stuff.
Greg Its been awhile, but is his name Bob Parker (Parkhill?) or something like that? |
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Posted: 6/19/2002 2:40:09 PM EDT
[#36]
Who were you dealing with? A redish brown haired guy with glasses? He's full of shit and has been full of shit for a long time, even since I worked at Edelman's with him. He's a POS and you can tell him that Greg from Edelman's said so. Then go anywhere but there to complete your transfer, he's a dirt bag and you don't want him touching your stuff. Greg Its been awhile, but is his name Bob Parker (Parkhill?) or something like that? Can't be the same guy. The one I deal with is named Louis B. He seems like a good guy. |
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Posted: 6/19/2002 2:51:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Who were you dealing with? A redish brown haired guy with glasses? He's full of shit and has been full of shit for a long time, even since I worked at Edelman's with him. He's a POS and you can tell him that Greg from Edelman's said so. Then go anywhere but there to complete your transfer, he's a dirt bag and you don't want him touching your stuff. Greg Its been awhile, but is his name Bob Parker (Parkhill?) or something like that? This guy said he has been in that spot for 15 years, unless he was full o fshit about thast. This guy reminded me the actor steve buscemi when i first looked at him. Is this the dirtbag you are referring to? |
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Posted: 6/20/2002 1:46:15 PM EDT
[#38]
Doesn't sound like the same guy. The guy I'm talking about has redish brown hair, always had a beard and glasses. Comes across as nice, but usually will bend customers over and give em a good shafting if he can.
I'd never deal with any store he's a part of. |
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Posted: 6/20/2002 1:56:03 PM EDT
[#39]
It's not the same guy. My 'roids weren't any the worse after dealing with Lou.
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Posted: 6/20/2002 4:47:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: It's not the same guy. My 'roids weren't any the worse after dealing with Lou. Glad to hear it. I've had some good dealings with people there after Edelman's was tanked, but since Parker was taken on, I wouldn't go near the place. |
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