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Posted: 6/15/2002 6:51:29 AM EDT
Little Chen is 13 years old lives in china or some other third world country with his family. They are hard working and fair people. They try to treat others as they would want to be treated. They have been exposed to many religions but have not taken a active roll in any of them. HERE IS THE QUESTION. A bus runs though their mud hut and kills the whole family. Do YOU believe they will enter the gates of heaven and is this the same view taken by the religion you belong ?
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 7:32:06 AM EDT
Jesus says himself in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME." If little Chen has not accepted Jesus (as his personal Lord and Savior) then he cannot go to Heaven. Jesus says this himself. In Romans, it says that men are without excuse (even if they live in a remote village in China.) God has reveled himself through nature and his eternal power and divine nature. (See Romans 1:18-20) This makes the job of Christians all the more urgent. We should get the Word out to everyone we can; even little Chen and his family in a remote village in China. The Word of God clearly points out that God desires that none would perish but that all would come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) However, we as sinful creatures cannot become right with God without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We have to remember that this is not the world the God created, this was not his perfect plan. He intended us to live as Adam and Eve did, physically walking and talking with Him daily. In His perfect plan, we would never have sinned and no one would perish or go to Hell. (In this perfect world that God created there would be no question of little Chen, he would know God intimately.) However, we know that we did choose to sin and now have to suffer the consequences. God is Holy and cannot look on sin, therefore He sent Jesus Christ for us.
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 8:20:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ura_baddog: They have been exposed to many religions but have not taken a active roll in any of them. HERE IS THE QUESTION. A bus runs though their mud hut and kills the whole family. Do YOU believe they will enter the gates of heaven and is this the same view taken by the religion you belong ?
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Have they been exposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ? If not, then the answer to both your questions is probably yes, (G*d's justice is REAL justice). If they have, the answer is probably no, except those who have not the maturity to be "accountable".
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 8:24:54 AM EDT
In my brain, without more info, I would say no, no hell. Publicly I would never say one way or another. It isn't my job to pronounce who is condemned and who isn't. You would have a hard time finding anyone in my church, for clergy to janitors, who would make that pronouncement. -legrue
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 10:12:50 AM EDT
How could they go someplace that doesn't exist?
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 10:17:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ura_baddog: A bus runs though their mud hut and kills the whole family. Do YOU believe they will enter the gates of heaven and is this the same view taken by the religion you belong ?
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Only God himself knows the standing of any man in the Book of Life. It is not my role to judge who is saved and who is not. No matter what church you belong to, judgement is reserved for God and God alone. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 10:18:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: How could they go someplace that doesn't exist?
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Ever drop acid in the old days?? [:D]
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 7:08:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2002 12:50:34 PM EDT by ura_baddog]
So many church's use being baptized or saved in someway to determine if you can get in to heaven or their version of the after life. I would like to believe that GOD could not possible punish someone for not worshiping him by a specific name or religion. How many groups have the same idea that they are the only religion going to heaven because they worship God the correct way and all the other religions are wrong and are going to hell. Most religion believe they are the only one with the right interpretation of what God wants. How could that be ? If your parents raise you to be Catholic or nudist that's what you most likely will believe. If your country is Christen,Buddhist or pagans & Muslim and everybody told you that is the correct way to worship ,why would you question it. Isn't it all relative to your world around you ? Thank you for the members who took the time to post their views
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 8:51:13 PM EDT
I would imagine God will decide that question when he sees Little Chen. I hope he would let Chen in.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:30:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 9:35:54 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Atencio: I would imagine God will decide that question when he sees Little Chen. I hope he would let Chen in.
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While Scripture IS clear that ONLY those who have received Jesus Christ as Saviour will enter heaven, Scripture DOES NOT, to my estimation, address the scenario presented in teh thead opener in unequivocal terms. So, I won't go beyond what the Bible says, either.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:34:28 AM EDT
Little Chen and his family were cannibals, and deserve what they got comin'. ;)
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:35:14 AM EDT
So, assuming little Chen has been exposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Christian consensus is go to hell, go directly to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200? Sheesh. the_reject
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:35:42 AM EDT
I don't think we should follow the bible so literally... Sure, little Chen didn't accept Jesus as his saviour, for whatever reasons. But Jesus, and God are benevolent. I don't beleive that God would let one of his children perish for eternity simply because he was never exposed to His teachings. In my case too, I'm kind of a fringe Christian. I have been baptized, but I don't follow the whole hardline Christian beliefs. I think that when I die, I will be judged. I have and will continue to live a good life, and I do not believe that a benevolent Creator would condemn me.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:38:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M1QJ: I don't think we should follow the bible so literally... Sure, little Chen didn't accept Jesus as his saviour, for whatever reasons. But Jesus, and God are benevolent. I don't beleive that God would let one of his children perish for eternity simply because he was never exposed to His teachings.
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Nice Job!
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:38:58 AM EDT
The bible is very clear about this topic. I guess the next debate is gonna be the "Do I get to go to Heaven because I am a nice person." Clearly some people are NOT gonna get into Heaven.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:40:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the_reject: So, assuming little Chen has been exposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Christian consensus is go to hell, go directly to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200? Sheesh. the_reject
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you live in georgia and just now figured this out? what rock have you been hiding under?
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:41:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tonys68l36: Jesus says himself in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME." If little Chen has not accepted Jesus (as his personal Lord and Savior) then he cannot go to Heaven. Jesus says this himself. In Romans, it says that men are without excuse (even if they live in a remote village in China.) God has reveled himself through nature and his eternal power and divine nature. (See Romans 1:18-20) This makes the job of Christians all the more urgent. We should get the Word out to everyone we can; even little Chen and his family in a remote village in China. The Word of God clearly points out that God desires that none would perish but that all would come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) However, we as sinful creatures cannot become right with God without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We have to remember that this is not the world the God created, this was not his perfect plan. He intended us to live as Adam and Eve did, physically walking and talking with Him daily. In His perfect plan, we would never have sinned and no one would perish or go to Hell. (In this perfect world that God created there would be no question of little Chen, he would know God intimately.) However, we know that we did choose to sin and now have to suffer the consequences. God is Holy and cannot look on sin, therefore He sent Jesus Christ for us.
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So, someone can go through life professing to be a catholic while secretly buggering little boys, and at the last minute before he dies, say "whoops, sorry about that, please forgive me", and slide into heaven. Meanwhile, someone else can lead a "good" life, helping anyone he can, living a clean and moral existance, yet be denied enterance to heaven. And people wonder why I stepped away from the Catholic church. Sheesh.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:41:51 AM EDT
According to the second noble truth, he will return and live again. Upon the one thousandth return he shall become Buddha. No heaven. No hell. They do not exist for those that follow this faith.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:42:18 AM EDT
Just remember that it is not by deeds that you get into Heaven. Only through the Son will you ever be close to God. As Tonys68|36 quoted... Yes this is what my church believes also. FB
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:42:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tonys68l36: The bible is very clear about this topic. I guess the next debate is gonna be the "Do I get to go to Heaven because I am a nice person." Clearly some people are NOT gonna get into Heaven.
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That's only what you believe. I do not beleive the same thing. Don't tell me I'm wrong, and I won't tell you you are.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:49:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lurker: you live in georgia and just now figured this out? what rock have you been hiding under?
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I just live here, man... I try not to drink the water... the_reject
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 9:57:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By Tonys68l36: Jesus says himself in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME." If little Chen has not accepted Jesus (as his personal Lord and Savior) then he cannot go to Heaven. Jesus says this himself. In Romans, it says that men are without excuse (even if they live in a remote village in China.) God has reveled himself through nature and his eternal power and divine nature. (See Romans 1:18-20) This makes the job of Christians all the more urgent. We should get the Word out to everyone we can; even little Chen and his family in a remote village in China. The Word of God clearly points out that God desires that none would perish but that all would come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) However, we as sinful creatures cannot become right with God without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We have to remember that this is not the world the God created, this was not his perfect plan. He intended us to live as Adam and Eve did, physically walking and talking with Him daily. In His perfect plan, we would never have sinned and no one would perish or go to Hell. (In this perfect world that God created there would be no question of little Chen, he would know God intimately.) However, we know that we did choose to sin and now have to suffer the consequences. God is Holy and cannot look on sin, therefore He sent Jesus Christ for us.
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So, someone can go through life professing to be a catholic while secretly buggering little boys, and at the last minute before he dies, say "whoops, sorry about that, please forgive me", and slide into heaven. Meanwhile, someone else can lead a "good" life, helping anyone he can, living a clean and moral existance, yet be denied enterance to heaven. And people wonder why I stepped away from the Catholic church. Sheesh.
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SO, you stepped away from the Catholic church because of the acts of less than a thousand people (so far) out of the millions of good Catholics worldwide. Even if the # of pedophiles increases (in the church), it will never exceed the any other orginization. Doesnt take much to shake your faith does it? I am ashamed of the bastards that raped and molested children while disguised as priests..and I am sure that God has a "special" plan for them. Using your excuse..should I drop out of the HUMAN race because there are pedophiles living among us....LOL...I think NOT. Good Luck!
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:01:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 10:03:11 AM EDT by shaggy]
No, little Chen is not going to Hell. He's not going to Heaven either. He's going to go help Elvis stock the shelves in the canned food aisle at a Food King in Arkansas. Thank you, thank you very much...
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:03:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shaggy: No, litle Chen is not going to Hell. He's not going to Heaven either. He's going to go help Elvis stock the shelves in the canned food aisle at a Food King in Arkansas.
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In the ethnic foods section??? [:D]
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:05:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the_reject:
Originally Posted By lurker: you live in georgia and just now figured this out? what rock have you been hiding under?
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I just live here, man... I try not to drink the water... the_reject
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ok, i think this is how it's supposed to work. good deeds dont count for anything. what you must do, at the very end of your miserable life of rape, pillage, lying, cheating and mass murder, is to [b]SINCERELY[/b] repent your sins and accept jesus as your personal savior. that's it. meanwhile, all the good, harmless caring souls you practiced your malevolent lifetime of sin on go to hell if they dont [b]SINCERELY[/b] repent their sins and accept jesus as their personal savior. got it? any questions? if there are any "christians" who think i'm mistaken about this, i'm sure they'll be delighted to point out my error.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:08:15 AM EDT
Dave223, re-read my post. I never said I stepped away because of any individuials actions. I said I stepped away because of the underlying belief that a person could do ANYTHING, ant it was ok as long as they said they were sorry, but if a person led a decent life without embracing a particular belief, they were screwed.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:11:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By shaggy: No, litle Chen is not going to Hell. He's not going to Heaven either. He's going to go help Elvis stock the shelves in the canned food aisle at a Food King in Arkansas.
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In the ethnic foods section??? [:D]
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Its a tough job, but somebody has to keep the King from trying to make sandwiches from canned banana custard, peanut butter, and pork rinds. [b]Little Chen has left the building![/b]
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:16:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lurker: ok, i think this is how it's supposed to work. good deeds dont count for anything. what you must do, at the very end of your miserable life of rape, pillage, lying, cheating and mass murder, is to [b]SINCERELY[/b] repent your sins and accept jesus as your personal savior. that's it. meanwhile, all the good, harmless caring souls you practiced your malevolent lifetime of sin on go to hell if they dont [b]SINCERELY[/b] repent their sins and accept jesus as their personal savior. got it? any questions? if there are any "christians" who think i'm mistaken about this, i'm sure they'll be delighted to point out my error.
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Ok, so let me see if I got this straight: I can have promiscuous premarital sex, stomp on puppies, kill toddlers at day care centers, and run down old ladies crossing the street, and so long as I "honestly" repent at the end of my life, I can go to Heaven? Dude, where's the sign-in sheet! However, if all those old ladies I ran over had dedicated their lives to helping the homeless, sheltering abused women, and never accepted Jesus, they get to go to Hell? Awesome! [rolleyes] the_reject
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:30:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the_reject: However, if all those old ladies I ran over had dedicated their lives to helping the homeless, sheltering abused women, and never accepted Jesus, they get to go to Hell? Awesome! [rolleyes] the_reject
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that's why hell is so unpleasant, it's full of goody-goodys! it's all part of the plan.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:38:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the_reject:
Originally Posted By lurker: ok, i think this is how it's supposed to work. good deeds dont count for anything. what you must do, at the very end of your miserable life of rape, pillage, lying, cheating and mass murder, is to [b]SINCERELY[/b] repent your sins and accept jesus as your personal savior. that's it. meanwhile, all the good, harmless caring souls you practiced your malevolent lifetime of sin on go to hell if they dont [b]SINCERELY[/b] repent their sins and accept jesus as their personal savior. got it? any questions? if there are any "christians" who think i'm mistaken about this, i'm sure they'll be delighted to point out my error.
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Ok, so let me see if I got this straight: I can have promiscuous premarital sex, stomp on puppies, kill toddlers at day care centers, and run down old ladies crossing the street, and so long as I "honestly" repent at the end of my life, I can go to Heaven? Dude, where's the sign-in sheet! However, if all those old ladies I ran over had dedicated their lives to helping the homeless, sheltering abused women, and never accepted Jesus, they get to go to Hell? Awesome! [rolleyes] the_reject
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Exactly how many sins would you permit before you would send somebody to hell? One murder, that's it, you've bagged your limit for this life? Or no murders, but one theft is okay as long as it was less than twenty dollars? Or one stomping of a puppy is okay as long as you counterbalance that with a day at the soup kitchen? You seem to feel very free to criticize God's mercy, yet at the same time, I doubt you would want to have yourself held up to a critical inspection under your own moral code. I know I fail what my own conscience tells me. Who are you to judge your brother, or more than that, to judge God? Nonetheless, you miss the point. God looks on the heart. If we reject God, we reject our only hope for life and goodness. If we cast ourselves on the mercy of God, he not only forgives, but through our dependence on him, begans to transform our hearts from within. I have seen God transform my life through mistakes I have made. I cannot imagine wanting to live in world where was that was not possible.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:56:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BostonTeaParty: ...God looks on the heart. If we reject God, we reject our only hope for life and goodness. If we cast ourselves on the mercy of God, he not only forgives, but through our dependence on him, begans to transform our hearts from within. I have seen God transform my life through mistakes I have made. I cannot imagine wanting to live in world where was that was not possible.
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I like that last part, BTP. Unfortunately, we are all caught down here on earth trying to figure out God's truth and the checklist for getting into heaven. Some folks here would have you believe that if you don't follow their percieved checklist, you're burning. Unfortunately, there are lots of checklists and none of them agree. (so does that mean we're all burning?) One poster here said "the bible is very clear on this", yet, if I go to another thread, I can get all sorts of bible quotations that conflict on whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation. I think I'll just leave the question of who is saved or not in the Lord's hands, and try to follow his root commandments: Love the Lord God and Love your neighbor as yourself. With His Grace and Mercy, perhaps I'll be allowed in.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 11:00:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 11:01:25 AM EDT by tommytrauma]
Boston, "If we reject God, we reject our only hope for life and goodness" So, Jeffery Dahmer's in heaven, but Ghandi's not allowed. Of course. How merciful and just.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 11:02:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BostonTeaParty: Nonetheless, you miss the point. God looks on the heart. If we reject God, we reject our only hope for life and goodness. If we cast ourselves on the mercy of God, he not only forgives, but through our dependence on him, begans to transform our hearts from within. I have seen God transform my life through mistakes I have made. I cannot imagine wanting to live in world where was that was not possible.
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Actually, that's not true. You believe that we reject our hope for life and goodness. You believe that because of what you are told, and because of an belief called faith. Faith is the belief in something, anything with no true proof. You just "know" it to be true. You cannot [b]prove[/b] to me that there is a god or not, yet you know Him to exist. You wish to tell me something, but you cannot speak my language. And that's all fine and dandy by me. Dowatchalike. I'm glad it's working for you, and I have nothing against any faith or religion. But from your vantage point, I live in that world were these grand tings are supposedly not possible. I have good experiences, and I have bad ones. I meet good people, and I meet bad people. I've seem my life transform itself through my mistakes right before my eyes. Same as I did when I was in your shoes. the_reject
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 11:03:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By RikWriter: How could they go someplace that doesn't exist?
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Ever drop acid in the old days?? [:D]
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Are you saying that heaven is like taking drugs?? Hmmmm Well I never took drugs and I do not belive in a heaven either....works for me!
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 11:24:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the_reject: Actually, that's not true. You believe that we reject our hope for life and goodness. You believe that because of what you are told, and because of an belief called faith. Faith is the belief in something, anything with no true proof. You just "know" it to be true. You cannot [b]prove[/b] to me that there is a god or not, yet you know Him to exist. You wish to tell me something, but you cannot speak my language. And that's all fine and dandy by me. Dowatchalike. I'm glad it's working for you, and I have nothing against any faith or religion. But from your vantage point, I live in that world were these grand tings are supposedly not possible. I have good experiences, and I have bad ones. I meet good people, and I meet bad people. I've seem my life transform itself through my mistakes right before my eyes. Same as I did when I was in your shoes. the_reject
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When have you ever been in my shoes?? I find that so insulting, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I misunderstood you. And who told you how I came to believe what I believe? I was not claiming that you have no good in your life or your experience. My point was that I find a moral system of justice that is only tit for tat, with no possibility of forgiveness or true change, terrifying. I need help from a higher power. I don't know your situation, but I know that I when I look at my friends and out at the world in general, all of us need help from outside, and that transformation by willpower or education is not enough. Love breaks through all that and shines a glimmer of light into the night that this world is in.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 11:29:44 AM EDT
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME." John 14:6 This pretty much explains how to "get into heaven" in the easiest to mentally digest form. This is the basis for Christianity. The verse does not say SOME can come to the Father by good deeds or works. It’s sooooo easy. All you have to do is to ask Jesus to be your own personal Lord and Savior. Nuff said.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 11:37:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tonys68l36: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME." John 14:6 This pretty much explains how to "get into heaven" in the easiest to mentally digest form. This is the basis for Christianity. The verse does not say SOME can come to the Father by good deeds or works. It’s sooooo easy. All you have to do is to ask Jesus to be your own personal Lord and Savior. Nuff said.
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And then you can spend eternity hanging out with Jeffrey Dahmer while Ghandi rots in hell. Splendid.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 11:46:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BostonTeaParty: When have you ever been in my shoes?? I find that so insulting, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I misunderstood you.
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Assuming that my assumption that you are, in fact, a Christian is correct, then that is what I meant about having once been in your shoes. But that was the only assumption I made.
And who told you how I came to believe what I believe?
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No one has to tell me how you came to believe what you believe. Bluntly and honestly, I don't care. Nor do I expect you to really care about the reasons behind my beliefs. The truth is, it doesn't really matter to either of us. We aren't sharing stories, we're discussing the end result of them. Storytelling is for another time.
I was not claiming that you have no good in your life or your experience. My point was that I find a moral system of justice that is only tit for tat, with no possibility of forgiveness or true change, terrifying.
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Oh, it's not really all that bad. Kinda scary at first, but quite liberating once you get used to it. [;)] But seriously, a closed system incapable of change is, as you put it, terrifying. However, that terrifying thought still doesn't make me change my mind that the fact that a serial killer who repents with 2 second left in the game scoots into the end zone of paradise, while the sweet little old lady who wouldn't harm the spiny protrusions on a gnat's head walks off to the lockerroom of doom, just seems flat-out wrong to me.
I need help from a higher power.
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And I don't. However, I don't look down upon you for needing that help from a higher power. In return, I'd like to not get blasted by your ilk for my independence. No offense, and no attack on you intended, trust me.
Love breaks through all that and shines a glimmer of light into the night that this world is in.
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Definitely agree here. But my love doesn't come from a supernatural being, it comes from me. Likewise, the love I receive doesn't come from a supernatural being. Just don't tell my girlfriend I told you that. [;)] the_reject
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 11:54:18 AM EDT
It is not what you believe that get you into heaven......It's what you do in life.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 11:55:37 AM EDT
I know where some of you non-Christians are coming from. I spent my childhood in church and saw so many hypocritical things. I used to tell myself that if this is what Godly people act like then I don't want any part of it. Its taken me 15 years to even go back to a church and now I'm really involved. Look at this way, men screw up, we are sinful and imperfect, so if you look to men you will get a distorted view of God. I said when I was a kid, I believe in Jesus etc, then I started living like the devil as a teen. I said it with my mind, but I wasn't truly saved, because I didn't accept it with my heart. I came full circle and this time, I came crawling back to God. I have seen a transformation in my life. I am a different person. Of course, I still screw up, but if you are truly changed, you are unable to act like Jeffrey Dahmer. The Bible states plainly that not all who say, "Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven."
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 12:05:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By the_reject: Assuming that my assumption that you are, in fact, a Christian is correct, then that is what I meant about having once been in your shoes. But that was the only assumption I made.
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Then I did misunderstand you. I am a Christian. I thought you were basically saying that you knew the mistakes I've made or the struggles I've had. I don't know that my challenges have been any worse than the next guy's, but I still don't like to have them belittled. Which apparently you weren't doing, so no harm, no foul.
And who told you how I came to believe what I believe?
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No one has to tell me how you came to believe what you believe. Bluntly and honestly, I don't care. Nor do I expect you to really care about the reasons behind my beliefs. The truth is, it doesn't really matter to either of us. We aren't sharing stories, we're discussing the end result of them. Storytelling is for another time.
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You did say that I believe what I believe because it was what I had been told. Insofar as that applies to all of us, I don't disagree. But I've rejected plenty of the things I've been taught in church, or been told by Christians, or read in books. I believe what I believe because it best matches the evidence I've seen. You don't have to care about my story, but that doesn't make it right to insinuate that my ideas are bunk because you think I've let myself be blindly led.
But seriously, a closed system incapable of change is, as you put it, terrifying. However, that terrifying thought still doesn't make me change my mind that the fact that a serial killer who repents with 2 second left in the game scoots into the end zone of paradise, while the sweet little old lady who wouldn't harm the spiny protrusions on a gnat's head walks off to the lockerroom of doom, just seems flat-out wrong to me.
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As theoretically stated, I probably wouldn't disagree with you. But I don't think such actual people exist. The world is not simply divided into people who are pure evil and people who are pure good.
And I don't. However, I don't look down upon you for needing that help from a higher power. In return, I'd like to not get blasted by your ilk for my independence. No offense, and no attack on you intended, trust me.
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Well, I don't always like what my "ilk" do either.
Love breaks through all that and shines a glimmer of light into the night that this world is in.
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Definitely agree here. But my love doesn't come from a supernatural being, it comes from me. Likewise, the love I receive doesn't come from a supernatural being. Just don't tell my girlfriend I told you that. [;)]
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LOL I love my wife and she loves me, too. That really is pretty cool. But it's also in my relationship with her that I find myself being most selfish and most wanting to control her and the outcome of things. Trusting in God helps me to let go of control and just let her be who she is.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 12:31:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BostonTeaParty: You did say that I believe what I believe because it was what I had been told. Insofar as that applies to all of us, I don't disagree. But I've rejected plenty of the things I've been taught in church, or been told by Christians, or read in books. I believe what I believe because it best matches the evidence I've seen. You don't have to care about my story, but that doesn't make it right to insinuate that my ideas are bunk because you think I've let myself be blindly led.
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I apologize if that is how my words came off, but that's not what I was trying to say. I don't think that anyone is truly blindly led anymore. I used to. I used to be the combative atheist, thinking all of Christendom and it's followers were truly stupid and deluded. I don't believe that anymore. It is, however, my personal opinion that those beliefs are simply just not for me, and do not mesh with the experiences I've had, the life I have led, and the things I have seen. If I sounded otherwise, I apologize.
As theoretically stated, I probably wouldn't disagree with you. But I don't think such actual people exist. The world is not simply divided into people who are pure evil and people who are pure good.
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I agree with you here. I'm not certain that there are perfectly good or perfectly bad people. Some people have more of one or the other, but even that is not a constant.
Well, I don't always like what my "ilk" do either.
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Good of you to say that. [:D]
I love my wife and she loves me, too. That really is pretty cool. But it's also in my relationship with her that I find myself being most selfish and most wanting to control her and the outcome of things. Trusting in God helps me to let go of control and just let her be who she is.
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With my girlfriend, it's kind of a weird situation. Weird in the sense that before meeting each other, neither of us had been where we are now. It's completely new to us both. We know where we are going, and we knew from the start that we'd be going there together. And I guess that because of that deeper feeling and that deeper connection, we both truly and simply trust in one another. Which, considering the events that had happened to us both before we met, is quite a feat. Both of us really had no reason to trust anyone, but we do. And we accept that. the_reject
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 1:00:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By the_reject: I apologize if that is how my words came off, but that's not what I was trying to say. I don't think that anyone is truly blindly led anymore. I used to. I used to be the combative atheist, thinking all of Christendom and it's followers were truly stupid and deluded. I don't believe that anymore. It is, however, my personal opinion that those beliefs are simply just not for me, and do not mesh with the experiences I've had, the life I have led, and the things I have seen. If I sounded otherwise, I apologize.
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I was probably a little quick to take offense. Sometimes I get tired of being painted with the broad brush of Christian = mindless and stupid, and I assumed that's what you were doing. I see now that's not what you meant to communicate.
With my girlfriend, it's kind of a weird situation. Weird in the sense that before meeting each other, neither of us had been where we are now. It's completely new to us both. We know where we are going, and we knew from the start that we'd be going there together. And I guess that because of that deeper feeling and that deeper connection, we both truly and simply trust in one another. Which, considering the events that had happened to us both before we met, is quite a feat. Both of us really had no reason to trust anyone, but we do. And we accept that.
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I've become convinced that trust is crucial in any relationship. We appear to disagree on the ultimate source of trust and love, but let no one say the world would be better off without them.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 1:19:28 PM EDT
Little Chen would go to Heaven. Only his heaven is with Budda. I was raised a Christian. I attended a Christian school. My family went to church every Sunday and most Wed. nights. How many people in the Bible that came WAY before the time Jesus was born even knew of Jesus Christ ? I am sure Abel did not know of Jesus. All he knew of was the Lord God Almighty. If you apply this to this topic then when Cain killed his brother he also banished him to Hell... Correct me with scripture if I am wrong...
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 1:34:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 1:36:35 PM EDT by MCTS]
Cain was cursed by God but not sentenced to Hell. In fact, God showed mercy. Genesis 4:10-16 The Lord said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth." 13 Cain said to the Lord , "My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me." 15 But the Lord said to him, "Not so [5] ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord 's presence and lived in the land of Nod, [6] east of Eden.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 2:37:32 PM EDT
I'm am absolutely addicted! I am actually the wife of Tonys68L36 and used to wonder how he could spend so much time in these forums. But he addicted me, I can't stop posting on the religious topics. It all started with the baptism for salvation thread. Well on to this topic, I originally posted about Chen 2 or 3 days ago with the John 14:6 post. I see that my husband has posted since then. An idea that I am seeing throughout these posts is the idea of "huge" sinners getting to go to heaven at the last minute. Yes, this is absolutely true. Anyone who believes will be saved. Acts 16:31 says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." There are no stipulations for this (provided that it is sincere, which only that person and God truly know.) Jesus himself ate and associated with the sinners (worst people around: prostitutes, tax collecters, etc) not the religious people of the day. When the religious people saw him eating at a tax collector's house and asked him about it, Jesus replied, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick...For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Matthew 9:12-13) Thank God that he came to save sinners (such as myself) because I am reminded everyday (by my actions and sinful nature) that I need him desperately. Another thing that we need to remember is that sin is sin, whether it is big or little. God sees it all the same and cannot look upon any of it (from a little white lie, to a rape or murder) Romans 14:23 "Everything that does not come from faith is sin." James 4:17 "Anyone then who knows the good that he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins" Romans 3:10 "There is no one righteous, not even one." Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Once we realize that God sees every sinner the same, (serial killer to minister)we realize that we all need Him the same. Even Paul (who most consider to be pretty righteous and wrote a huge chunk of the New Testament) was a murderer who called himself the worst of sinners (see 1 Timothy 1:15) However, I would not wait until the last minute to make this huge decision, because we are not guaranteed our next breath. Not to mention the great joy there is in living a holy, abundant, Spirit-filled life. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 2:43:28 PM EDT
I am reading a lot of people asking how I know that my faith (Christianity) is the "right" one. I highly recommend any one of the following books, they are all convincing! There is tons of evidence from Scriptural, historical, archaelogical, etc. places in support of Christianity. The Case for Christ (written by Lee Strobel, a former athiest and journalist for the Chicago Tribune who sets out to discount Christianity and interviews tons of really smart people adn ends up becoming a believer) Mere Christianity (by: C.S.Lewis) He discusses Christianity from a completely non-Biblical stand point and in essence proves it without any Scripture. Letters from a Skeptic (By a father and son Gregory and ? Boyd) Actual correspondence between a believing son and his skeptical father about Christianity. The dad asks his son all sorts of questions about world suffering, validity of the Bible and Jesus, etc...The father ends up becoming a believer because of all the proof. Also, anything written by Josh McDowell. He finds proof from Biblical and non-Biblical sources to answer those tough questions about Christianity. Everything from the validity of the Bible to creationism to different world religions, etc . . .
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 2:51:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 2:53:34 PM EDT by USMC_LB]
You completely missed what I said... I was not referring to Cain going to Hell for murdering his brother. I was pointing out that since Abel did not know Jesus Christ ( nobody did at that time... )and claim Jesus as his Savior. That by applying the logic of this topic to his scenario would mean that Abel is going to Hell beause he was killed before he could claim Jesus Christ as his Savior and had not been saved through Jesus.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 2:55:37 PM EDT
Herein lies the superiority complex of the Christian religion. Being raised Christian, I personally found it IMPOSSIBLE to fathom that someone could be the greatest, most caring person in the world but since they weren't baptized, they weren't going to heaven. I refuse to believe that I am superior in any way to other people simply because I was raised Christian. On a side note, I no longer practice a religion.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 2:57:17 PM EDT
Oh! While we are on the topic of religion and Christianity another question of mine pops up. I grew up my whole life believing that Jesus Christ had green eyes, pale skin and brown hair. At least the Bible I saw depicted him like this. Do people here really believe he was caucasian ?
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 4:51:52 PM EDT
I don't think we exactly know Abel's fate. However, people in the Old Testament are still saved by faith in Jesus Christ. They did not know his name but they still knew that they were sinners in need of a Savior. In the Old Test. people offered sacrifices for their sins in order to be made right before God. When Jesus Christ came, he was the perfect lamb that was slain as a sacrifice once for all people (Old and New Testament.) Also, before Jesus died people did not go to heaven because he had not yet paid the price for them. As well, people who are now dead are not in Hell yet. They will be thrown into the lake of fire/Hell/GeyHinnom at the final judgement (see Rev. 20:11-15) There is a place called Hades (Greek)/Sheol (Hebrew) that has 2 different compartments (a kind of heaven compartment called Abraham's bosom or Paradise and a hell compartment that Jesus called Gey Hinnom. After Jesus was crucified he went to Sheol and took all of the believers back with Him to heaven and preached to the non-believers (1Peter 4:6). thief on cross went to Paradise (Luke 23:43) Lazarus and the rich man in Hades (Luke 16:19-31)Lazarus in paradise, rich man in other part Hebrews in the New Testament has a lot to say about the faith of Old Testament believers (Heb 11), Jesus taking the role of our high priest(Heb 4-5), and Jesus being the Savior/sacrifice of all.(Heb 10)
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