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Posted: 6/14/2002 8:29:53 AM EDT
here's Scripture texts - Luke 23: 39 - 45 [my comment] The thief on the cross was NOT baptized, yet Chrsit promised him Heaven. Some say "God altered his own rules" but even that explanation is unScriptural.[/my comment] [i]Malachi 3: 16 - For I am the Lord god; I change not.[/i] Back to baptism and salvation - [i]Ephesians 2; 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.[/i] Baptism is a "work" - something the sinner "does. " God specifically exempted ANY works (doing's) from salvation, given man's tendancy to boast about himself saying "Look what I did. " Salvation is all of God, NOT of what man DOES. In fact Paul addressed man's tendancy to boast, even on the subject of baptism - [i]I Corinthians 1: 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.[/i] So Paul thanked God he didn't baptize, when Baptism is necessary for salvation??? I think not. God selected Paul to write 20% of the Holy Scriptures. And yet Paul baptized only a handful, when Scripture CLEARLY indicates he led hundreds, possibly thousands, to the Lord. Paul even indicates he wasn't called by the Lord to baptize. If baptism is necessary for the salvation Jesus Christ offers, yet Christ himself didn't send Paul to baptize???? Please. It is in this light, we must understand any confusing Scriptures.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:32:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:36:28 AM EDT
Oh lord... here comes the God Squad... Batten down ye hatches, boys, before you be beaten and bludgeoned by blustering big-mouths bearing Bibles... the_reject
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:38:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thedave1164: is this a rhetorical question?
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Its in response to someone who tried to bring up this issue by hijacking another thread, where I decided to honor that threads author by staying on topic. And given the proclivities of the would- be hijacker to claim I'm trying to avoid the issue, I decided to set a good example, and address his comments in ANOTHER thread. Something he admonished me to do in the past. Honor other peoples threads, and start new ones, NOT hijack someone elses, that is. [:D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:38:16 AM EDT
Did not the current Pope go to the suprising effort of stating that ALL good men are saved... regardless of what they believe?
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:40:37 AM EDT
In Catholicism, baptism is NOT necessary for salvation. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Section Two, 1260: "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved."
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:51:36 AM EDT
I am a southern baptist. I personally don't believe baptism is necesarry for salvation. However, I work with many people of the Church of Christ denomination who will argue all day long that it IS necessary. I always ask "what about the guy on cross next to Jesus"? They say if you were talking to Jesus face to face he could do anything he wanted with you...my response is "what are we doing when we pray"?
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:57:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:58:57 AM EDT
Yep. Cause He said it was. Not me. He's the author of salvation. I read His book. I keep His commandments. Easy enough to do. Everyone saved in the New Testament after Calvary got baptized. It says so. Read, folks, read. Just do a word search on baptism. You'll get the drift of what Jesus, Paul and the early church taught about baptism. Eric The(Ho-Hum)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:59:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Yep. Cause He said it was. Not me. He's the author of salvation. I read His book. I keep His commandments. Easy enough to do. Everyone saved in the New Testament after Calvary got baptized. It says so. Read, folks, read. Just do a word search on baptism. You'll get the drift of what Jesus, Paul and the early church taught about baptism. Eric The(Ho-Hum)Hun[>]:)]
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According to Paul writing in Romans 2:13-16 "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." And in Luke 12:47-48 "And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more."
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:00:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Its in response to someone who ... hijacking another thread... ... the would- be hijacker to claim I'm trying to avoid the issue... ...NOT hijack someone elses.
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Your message might carry more weight without the uncivil attitude. DrMark
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:01:57 AM EDT
Here is my post on another thread regarding the penitent thief question:
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from MCTS -
This man was not baptized, but entered the kingdom of heaven.
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What? You knew that the penitent thief had not been baptized? Where does it say [u]that[/u] in the Gospel?[:D] No, there are three excellent reasons why the penitent thief was told by Jesus that he would be with Him in Heaven that day! Reason No 1. [b]The penitent thief DIED UNDER THE LAW![/b] Christ's Church was not established until the Day of Pentecost. So the fact that the penitent thief asked Christ to remember him, was sufficient in Jesus's mind to save him under the Law. Remember how easy forgiveness was under Jewish Temple worship. Prayers and sacrifices for the sins of the Jews were constantly being offered up to God, which, until the very moment of Jesus's death, were sufficient to God to cause Him to forgive the sins of every Jew. Apparently, although we are not told this, the penitent thief was the very last Jew that was ever saved under the Law! Maybe there were more during the 50 day period between Passover and Pentecost, but of these we are not told! Reason No 2. [b]Jesus possesses the Keys to Heaven and Hell[/b] On this earth, whatever Jesus may bind, is bound in Heaven, if He losses on this earth, it is loosed in Heaven. If Jesus desires to 'suspend the rules' to let the penitent thief, or anyone else whom He desires, into Heaven under such circumstances, well, I, for one, will not complain! But I will not consider that Jesus was making church doctrine by doing what He did on Cavalry! It was His Day! Let Him do as He wishes! Reason No 3. [b]Who says the penitent thief was not baptized?[/b] From a doctrinal viewpoint this is the weakest argument, but one that must be made in order to show that we simply do not know everything about everything! John baptized 'many' we are told. Might not this penitent thief have been one of them? He knew Jesus and His message pretty well, didn't he? He understood Jesus better than the lawyers and scribes in the Temple understood Jesus. He understood Jesus better than Pontius Pilate understood Jesus. He knew that Jesus' Kingdom was in another world, a world that both He and this righteous Man dying next to him would soon enter, and he wished that this man, Jesus, would remember him, a soon-to-be-dead-sinner, when Jesus came into His Kingdom in that next world! He knew that Jesus was Lord! 'And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.' Luke 23:42 He knew that Jesus was innocent! 'And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: [u]but this man hath done nothing amiss[/u].' Luke 23:41. Sounds as if he knew Jesus very well indeed, so it would not surprise me at all if he had been baptized before Calvary! Not many present day Christians knew or know that much about Jesus. But he did. And you see where it got him, right?[:D] Eric The(Reverent)Hun[>]:)]
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Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:09:55 AM EDT
G-man, Mac, Eric, et. al. Thanks for a thought provoking topic. G-man, the subject of conflicting scriptural references is one of a couple of reasons that I am not a biblical literalist. Least your bile and ire rise, I do consider myself a (very very imperfect) christain, but I personally can't believe the whole Adam/Eve/Flood stuff. Please note, if you want to believe that, more power to you. I just don't. If Eric has his second shoot in October, y'all may have the opportunity to debate me on it. [;)] regards, legrue
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:15:23 AM EDT
Here is a thought for the people who think you must be saved, baptized, born again or the like please feel free to add you own definition. The paradox starts in China or take you pick of 3rd world shit holes. Little Chens 13 years old ,is family is not of any religion. Chen is a good kid in every respect. Good to his family and others. Would not cheat or steal. He has never rejected to word of the lord because he has never been exposed to it. Chen get hit by a bus. Is chin going to hell or heaven .
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:15:36 AM EDT
Post from legrue -
If Eric has his second shoot in October, y'all may have the opportunity to debate me on it.
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What do you mean 'if'? The Hun's plans will go forward even if there is no Hun around. But I plan on being there too! And insofar as debating the Bible at the Hun Farm? Nope. At the Farm all King James' are put away for safekeeping. I dislike discussing church doctrine on this Board, but when the subject arises I find myself [u]needing[/u] to make comments. At the Hun Farm, it's all shooting and fun. There is a church of Christ in Crowell, we can go visit, though! Eric The(IfYou'dLike[:D])Hun [>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:16:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the_reject: Batten down ye hatches, boys, before you be beaten and bludgeoned by blustering big-mouths bearing Bibles... the_reject
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Take away the bible and substitute "pointless unintelligent comments" and this could describe you.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:19:26 AM EDT
Dee dee deet deet da deet da deet... This just in... Neo-anabaptists invade AR-15.com... More news to follow... Just try being a Lutheran who believes in representationalism as opposed to the 'real presence' doctrine. It will drive you mad...:)
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:28:23 AM EDT
AC 2:36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." AC 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" AC 2:38 Peter replied,[b] "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.[/b] 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." -- Seems clear to me that we should be baptized. If you believe in your heart and confess, but die before you can be baptized, you are still saved, i.e. the thief on the cross. The fact that God sees what is in our hearts is the deciding factor, even though we have certain requirements (not works) as a Christian. For example, we cannot continue in a willfully sinful lifestyle.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:33:01 AM EDT
Actually, the Catholic Church teaches that Baptism [b]IS[/b] necessary for salvation. The very [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i] that you quote says so in paragraph 1256: "The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. (Jn. 3:5) He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. (Mt. 28:19-20) Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibliity of asking for this sacrament." It also says in #1260 right after the sentence you quoted: "It may be supposed that such persons would have [i]desired Baptism explicitly[/i] if they had known its necessity." To see what the Catholic Church believes on necessity of Baptism, check out this link to the Catechism: [url=http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/baptism.html#NECESSITY]necessity of baptism[/url]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:36:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 9:37:39 AM EDT by loonybin]
G-man, You may not realize it, but you contradict yourself slightly in your post:
So Paul thanked God [b]he didn't baptize[/b], when Baptism is necessary for salvation??? I think not. And yet Paul baptized only a handful,
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so which is it? (hint: he did baptize people. In fact, he baptized Crispus and Gaius)
It is in this light, we must understand any confusing Scriptures.
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In what light? Your interpretation of some select passages? Let's take a look at what the early Christians believed, before the Bible was compiled. St. Justin Martyr (~165AD) Tertullian (~205AD) St. Cyril of Jerusalem (~350AD) are just some of the early Christian leaders who [i]affirmed what had always been taught[/i] that Baptism was necessary for salvation. The biggest difference is probably in your view of what Baptism is. You say it is a work of people. The early Christians believed it was God's work. A man poured the water, but God cleansed the soul and filled the person with grace (which I know we both agree is necessary for salvation).
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:37:29 AM EDT
Amen, [b]Brother ChuckT![/b] That is the response that men filled with the Holy Spirit gave to the children of God! 3,000 were baptized on the First Day in the History of His Church! Why? Because their Leader, their Savior, their Redeemer, their Lord and their God, told them to say this: [b]Repent and be baptized, every one of you...[/b] Every one of you! These men of God, full of His Spirit, are speaking directly to you as well! Eric The(TodayIsTheDayOfSalvation!TomorrowMayBeThe­DayOfJudgment!SoHurry!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:42:20 AM EDT
For every "repent and be baptized" text y'all give, i can give TWO that simply say "Beleive on the Lord, and ye shall be saved "without any mention of a necessity of baptism. Scripturally, good works are NOT part of salvation, but the RESULT of salvation - those who are saved do good works. SO, the "repent and be baptized" texts are referring to TWO events (1) repentance (beleiving which is ALSO necesary for salvation is implied) and (2) the good work of baptism (among many others) which by defintion MUST follow salvation. The Scripture speaks of in Matt 3 and Acts 26 "works SUITABLE (or appropriate) for one who has repented." Baptism is simply one of those "works" that follow salvation. Futher, a contextual study of early church history will show that the PURPOSE of baptism was to identify yourself that you were one of the Christians. That you had been saved, and you wanted the world to know it. But again, I refer you to my thread opener. The apostle Paul speaks NOTHING of ba[tism as being necessary for salvation, and in fact CHOSE not to baptize people. Seems pretty clear to me - NO baptism necessary for salvation, but baptism IS necessary as an act of obedience in those who ARE ALREADY saved.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:44:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Amen, [b]Brother ChuckT![/b] That is the response that men filled with the Holy Spirit gave to the children of God! 3,000 were baptized on the First Day in the History of His Church! Why? Because their Leader, their Savior, their Redeemer, their Lord and their God, told them to say this: [b]Repent and be baptized, every one of you...[/b] Every one of you! These men of God, full of His Spirit, are speaking directly to you as well! Eric The(TodayIsTheDayOfSalvation!TomorrowMayBeThe­DayOfJudgment!SoHurry!)Hun[>]:)]
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Sorry, still don't see scripture saying "if you DON'T get baptized there is no possibility of salvation".
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:47:50 AM EDT
[b]garandman[/b], you simply do not have a clue about this subject at all. Is prayer a work? Is singing a hymn a work? Is obeying God a work? Is communion a work? Don't let your reading of Paul's epsitles set aside the direct commandment of God! It will not work, whether it comes from Paul, or an angel from Heaven, the Lord's will is what we need to obey. Eric The(GottaRunToCourtNow,ButI'llBeBack)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:48:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 9:50:38 AM EDT by loonybin]
Originally Posted By ChuckT: If you believe in your heart and confess, but die before you can be baptized, you are still saved, i.e. the thief on the cross.
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also called baptism of desire.
The fact that God sees what is in our hearts is the deciding factor, even though we have certain requirements (not works) as a Christian. For example, we cannot continue in a willfully sinful lifestyle.
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actually one of the requirements of being a Christian is to do good works out of love for Christ (Matt. 25:31-46). The works themselves won't get you to heaven (we can't earn our salvation), but your obedience to Christ will.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:54:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 9:55:05 AM EDT by loonybin]
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: Sorry, still don't see scripture saying "if you DON'T get baptized there is no possibility of salvation".
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Here it is for you: [red]Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."[/red] (John 3:5)
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:54:41 AM EDT
Note to [b]The_Macallan[/b] - Jesus' last message to His church: [red][b]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [u]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved[/u]; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/b][/red] Mark 16:15,16 'No need for baptism', sez [b]garandman.[/b] [red][b]'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved'[/b][/red], sez He! Eric The(ReallyGottaGo!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:55:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: [b]garandman[/b], you simply do not have a clue about this subject at all. [>]:)]
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Its unnecessary to make belittling characterizations like this IF your arguments are sufficiently strong.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:58:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By loonybin:
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: Sorry, still don't see scripture saying "if you DON'T get baptized there is no possibility of salvation".
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Here it is for you: [red]Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."[/red] (John 3:5)
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PLEASE read the WHOLE passage contextually - "born of water" = physical birth, the amniotic fluid that the baby is carried in prior to birth. Nicodemus response to Jesus statement that you quoted makes this ABUNDANTLY CLEAR. Well, to those who don't rip verses out of their context anyway.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:59:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Note to [b]The_Macallan[/b] - Jesus' last message to His church: [red][b]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [u]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved[/u]; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/b][/red] Mark 16:15,16 'No need for baptism', sez [b]garandman.[/b] [red][b]'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved'[/b][/red], sez He! Eric The(ReallyGottaGo!)Hun[>]:)]
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Congrats Eric, you can quote the same verse, over and over, while NEVER addressing a SINGLE point made in my thread opener. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 10:02:46 AM EDT
It's His verse, [b]garandman[/b], not mine. What better authority can you have than Jesus' own words...to His church....to Nicodemus...to Paul on the Road to Damascus...? Nothing you've cited sets aside the direct and clear Commandment of God, even Paul would say that! Eric The(NotSoFoolish)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 10:04:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 10:06:16 AM EDT by EricE]
Hmmm... now would I have to come in here, and advocate the worship of [devil][size=5]SATAN[/size=5][devil] just for G-Man and ETH to join forces? Nah... that would just make me look bad [:D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 10:05:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By loonybin:
The fact that God sees what is in our hearts is the deciding factor, even though we have certain requirements (not works) as a Christian. For example, we cannot continue in a willfully sinful lifestyle.
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actually one of the requirements of being a Christian is to do good works out of love for Christ (Matt. 25:31-46). The works themselves won't get you to heaven (we can't earn our salvation), but your obedience to Christ will.
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You are correct:
Eph 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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We are saved [b]unto[/b] good works, not because of good works. You cannot get to heaven by simply being a good person. I was trying to clarify, for lack of a better explanation, the minimum requirement. Faith is a journey, not something you did once.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 10:06:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 10:40:01 AM EDT by garandman]
OK, take this verse: [b]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15,16[/b] Why is beleiving and baptism necessary for salvation, but ONLY "not beleiving" necessary for damnation??? You CANNOT say baptism is critical in one side of a mutually exclusive proposition, but NOT critical in the other side of THE SAME mutually exclusive proposition.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 10:08:29 AM EDT
At least you arent all wet on baptism
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 10:08:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 10:16:49 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By ChuckT: You are correct:
Eph 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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We are saved [b]unto[/b] good works, not because of good works. .
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great verse. Also throw in verse 9 - For by grace thru faith you are saved, NOT of works (like baptism - my comment) unless anyone should boast. Baptism is ONE OF those "good works" - a step of obedience that FOLLOWS salvation. Therefore, it CANNOT be a [b]CONDITION OF[/b] salvation.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 10:10:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: At least you arent all wet on baptism
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Try as I might, I can't be wrong on EVERY subject [:D] [:D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 10:16:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricE: Hmmm... now would I have to come in here, and advocate the worship of [devil][size=5]SATAN[/size=5][devil] just for G-Man and ETH to join forces? Nah... that would just make me look bad [:D]
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LOL Probably..... But maybe when the anti-christ shows up with the marking equipment that will suffice...we shall see...might not happen until HE actually shows up and tells us we were all wrong but he saved those who He will anyway...
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 10:43:37 AM EDT
so is there any way to reverse baptism?
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 10:56:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By elvez: so is there any way to reverse baptism?
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Why would you want to? If you mean can a person lose their salvation?..now that will be another great debate...
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 10:58:51 AM EDT
It is sad indeed that G-man expends so much effort to deny what Christ ASKS of us. If you dont want to do as he ASKS, then please dont. I,thru the scripture, already destroyed your theory on amniotic fluid some time ago G, you had no reply to it. Yet you still want to dig it up again. You greatly sadden me. In a while I will be back and will post the scriptures again for baptism saving us. I have to go pick up a counter top for my sister, as I have the only p/u truck available. G-man, you seek to plow the sea... The number of baptism references far outweigh the faith alone refs. It is also odd to me that a faith that calls itself Baptist.... denies the need for Baptism for salvation. Que pasa? Dram
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 11:09:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 11:19:26 AM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 11:09:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 11:13:50 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Dramborleg: It is sad indeed that G-man expends so much effort to deny what Christ ASKS of us. If you dont want to do as he ASKS, then please dont.
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I've already been baptized. AS I said, its a REQUIRED step of obedience for those who are ALREADY saved. The ONLY question here is "Was it a step of salvation, or a step FOLLOWING salvation.?"
I,thru the scripture, already destroyed your theory on amniotic fluid some time ago G, you had no reply to it. Yet you still want to dig it up again. You greatly sadden me.
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Well, cheer up dude. And dredge that "destruction" of my theory up again. Apparently, it wasn't that memorable.
In a while I will be back and will post the scriptures again for baptism saving us. I have to go pick up a counter top for my sister, as I have the only p/u truck available.
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Ain't pickups da bes'????? At least until people figger out you got one. [BD]
G-man, you seek to plow the sea... The number of baptism references far outweigh the faith alone refs.
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Interesting mental image. I don't SEEK this. It was FORCED upon me when in a COMPLETELY unrelated conversation, SOMEONE ELSE yet again forced my hand by initiating this discussion. Blame dem, not me. I also maintain that you are WRONG about the # of baptism references outweighing the "faith alone" references. But I'll verufy that later.
It is also odd to me that a faith that calls itself Baptist.... denies the need for Baptism for salvation. Que pasa? Dram
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Well, I wouldn't know. I'm NOT a Baptist.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 11:09:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 11:11:46 AM EDT
Good Scriptures, legs!!!
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 11:12:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 11:18:51 AM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 11:56:03 AM EDT
So, my brothers, are we now hearing that [b]baptism[/b] is simply a 'work' that is unnecessary? Then is [b]belief[/b] also a 'work' that is unnecessary? Then is [b]repentance[/b] also a 'work' that is unnecessary? The is [b]confession[/b] also a 'work' that is unnecessary? If so, then you have surely gutted the entire thrust of how a soul comes to Jesus! So, every time that Jesus mentioned salvation in the Gospels, He should always have mentioned Hearing, Believing, Repenting, Confessing, and being Baptized every single time He said it? Look at the Scriptures that y'all have quoted and see if 'repentance' is mentioned each time Jesus, Paul, or someone spoke of salvation. Does anyone here contend that Jesus does not require REPENTANCE in order to be saved? Does anyone here contend that Jesus does not require CONFESSION in order to be saved? Does anyone here contend that Jesus does not require BELIEF in order to be saved? Then why do you contend that Jesus does not require BAPTISM in order to be saved? It's certainly a strange Bible and a strange belief system that some here have that teaches [b]'the doctrines of man as a replacement for the commandments of God![/b] [red][b]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. [/b][/red] Matthew 15:9 Let [b]Jesus[/b] tell you how to be saved, and stop listening to me, garandman, or any other human being. It's in His Book! In His own words! Eric the(ToWhomShouldWeGo,Master,ForThouHastTheWor­dsOfLife)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 12:00:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: So, my brothers, are we now hearing that [b]baptism[/b] is simply a 'work' that is unnecessary? Then is [b]belief[/b] also a 'work' that is unnecessary? Then is [b]repentance[/b] also a 'work' that is unnecessary? The is [b]confession[/b] also a 'work' that is unnecessary? )Hun[>]:)]
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That's a good question. My understanding is that belief, confession and repentance are indeed all works necessary for salvation - works DONE BY God in a mans heart. They may have an outward manifestation in the individual, but DO NOT mistake who is the Originator and Completor (Hebrews 12:1-2) of that work. Salvation is ALL of God, NONE of man.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 12:10:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By ChuckT: You are correct:
Eph 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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We are saved [b]unto[/b] good works, not because of good works. .
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great verse. Also throw in verse 9 - For by grace thru faith you are saved, NOT of works (like baptism - my comment) unless anyone should boast. Baptism is ONE OF those "good works" - a step of obedience that FOLLOWS salvation. Therefore, it CANNOT be a [b]CONDITION OF[/b] salvation.
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No, baptism is NOT onne of those "good works." Paul was referring to the works of the Mosaic Law, specifically circumcision (see v.11), but by association, all the Mosaic Law. This is what the Pharisees did-- saw their works of the Mosaic law as sufficient, and thus boasted about it. Baptism is NOT one of our "good works." It is a WORK OF GOD, His saving grace poured out on us as the water is poured out on us (or we're immersed in, or sprinkled. We won't get into that here). That is why Peter says in 1Peter 3:20-21 that [b]"Baptism, which corresponds to this[/b] [Noah & family being saved through water], [b]now saves you[/b], not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Also, John 3:5 was not out of context. Nicodemus's MISunderstanding is why Jesus re-emphasizes that "water and the spirit" do not refer to birth from the womb, but to a spiritual rebirth. Jesus is trying to force Nicodemus out of his material thoughts towards a deeper spiritual reality. Lastly, why is it that your interpretation of Scripture on the necessity of Baptism is so different from the early Christian leaders who were only 100-200 years removed from the Apostles? I would think they would know, since they were much closer to the Apostles than we are. [b]Before this debate will ever be resolved, a different question needs to be addressed.[/b] What is a sacrament. Those who view it as a sacrament (in the 2,000 year old sense) will say it is necessary. Those who have come up with a different understanding of sacrament will say it's not necessary. [i]Until this is resolved, the entire debate about the necessity of baptism is simply spinning wheels and going nowhere.[/i]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 12:29:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By loonybin: No, baptism is NOT onne of those "good works." Paul was referring to the works of the Mosaic Law, specifically circumcision (see v.11), but by association, all the Mosaic Law. This is what the Pharisees did-- saw their works of the Mosaic law as sufficient, and thus boasted about it.
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Given that Paul was speaking to Gentiles (at Ephesus) , I don't think he really had to tell them to NOT follow the works of the law - they never had done that. Works are works. Old testament, New Testament, no difference. Works are those actions by which people think they gain entrance to heaven.
Baptism is NOT one of our "good works." It is a WORK OF GOD, His saving grace poured out on us as the water is poured out on us (or we're immersed in, or sprinkled. We won't get into that here). That is why Peter says in 1Peter 3:20-21 that [b]"Baptism, which corresponds to this[/b] [Noah & family being saved through water], [b]now saves you[/b], not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
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The "baptism of the spirit" is a whole other discussion. I'm speaking of where a person goes and has another person dunk him in H2O. Also, John 3:5 was not out of context. Nicodemus's MISunderstanding is why Jesus re-emphasizes that "water and the spirit" do not refer to birth from the womb, but to a spiritual rebirth. Jesus is trying to force Nicodemus out of his material thoughts towards a deeper spiritual reality.
Lastly, why is it that your interpretation of Scripture on the necessity of Baptism is so different from the early Christian leaders who were only 100-200 years removed from the Apostles? I would think they would know, since they were much closer to the Apostles than we are.
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Sorry, but you are gonna need to document that. And frankly, if it ain't within the 66 book canon of Holy Writ, i'm not even interested in discussing it.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 12:46:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: OK, take this verse: [b]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15,16[/b] Why is beleiving and baptism necessary for salvation, but ONLY "not beleiving" necessary for damnation??? You CANNOT say baptism is critical in one side of a mutually exclusive proposition, but NOT critical in the other side of THE SAME mutually exclusive proposition.
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This means you need [b]both[/b]. You can be baptized [u]without[/u] believing, but it would be pointless. For example, if there is a job that requires you to be male and 21, you can be female [u]and still be 21[/u], but not be eligible. Without the male, the 21 is immaterial to the argument.
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