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Posted: 6/11/2002 9:39:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2002 11:11:06 AM EDT by MisterGreens]
Many times I find a news story about conservatives being way too conservative for my own tastes. Obviously, some people have different tastes than others, but here is my take. Nickelodeon, the kids network, taped a special about gay parents featuring Rosie O'Donnell (who I cannot stand) and Jerry Falwell. Immediately, this group called the Traditional Values Coalition, objected, saying they are misleading kids and promoting homosexuality with propaganda. As much as I do not support the lifestyle of homosexuality, I do support the general will of the people. This is another case of conservatives being a little too conservative. Now I am pretty damn far to the right, not quite as far as Rush though, and I get irked by these old guard Republicans crying murder when something a little untraditional is discussed. Whether you ultra-conservatives like it or not, there are gay parents in the world. This is how our world works. By censoring things like this, we are blinding our children to what is really going on. And I hate to burst another bubble, but not everyone believes in god (I didn't capitalize it on purpose) either. The world does not run on all Christian values anymore. Sorry. It just seems to me that anytime something doesn't fit well in regards to almighty god or other 1940s values that some of these conservative share, they get upset because that is what they are programmed to do. Stop being such wussies, and toughen up a little will you? Like I said, I don't support homosexuality, but I do support the 1st Amendment, and if I don't like something that's on TV, I change the channel. Maybe that's what you should do too. EDITED to add: ANYONE can say ANYTHING they want!! But they should not be censored in the process. The Traditional Values Coalition can say anything they want, but they have no right to try to force a show off of the air.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 9:48:55 AM EDT
Maybe we need the radical right to counter the radical left... Maybe...
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 9:52:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2002 9:57:52 AM EDT by AeroE]
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 9:53:05 AM EDT
Why is it that every single time someone talks about the "conservatives" they also mention "Christianity"? Can't we expand our minds to the thinking that the two are not linked in all cases?
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 9:55:31 AM EDT
ie.The world does not run on all Christian values anymore.....Yes..pity ain't it. Maybe everyone should become Muslim as they seem to be really on top of things and causing very few problems all over the planet![;D][:D]
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 10:02:36 AM EDT
Deadeye47 - What's this "anymore" bullshit? The world has NEVER run off of "Christian values". Members of the Christian faith have NEVER been in the majority at any time. And, I'd posit the guess that it is likely that it never will happen. Furthermore, what's with the assumption that Christians could do any better with the world? Tell you what. I know what I'm gonna do right now. I'm going to sit back and ask myself, "Self, what would Jesus do?" [rolleyes] Oh wait. Here are the answers, right [url=http://www.minitru.org/llf/wwjd.html]here[/url]. the_reject
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 10:07:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MisterGreens: Every day I find a news story about conservatives being way too conservative for my own tastes. .
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Here's my take.... If conservatives are too conservative for you, then maybe you ARE NOT a conservative. [:D] Besides, its JUST a label. Call yourself WHATEVER you want.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 10:15:52 AM EDT
Unfortunately ignorance is not bound by your political values. Everyone shows some level of ignorance. Fortunately someone who is truly conservative fights every day to lessen their ignorance.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 10:22:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2002 10:29:33 AM EDT by MisterGreens]
Originally Posted By AeroE: Simply turning off the trash on television means you are ignoring the problem. Another option is working to correct that problem.
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First off, notice how I said SOME conservatives. I am not ignoring the problem buddy. I personally don't think that whatever show they air on homosexual parents is a problem. What the problem REALLY is, is people objecting to such a show and claiming it is anti-christian and is sending our kids the wrong message. I think that the wrong message is sent by objecting to anything that goes against the bible. I see it as persecution of 1st amendment rights. What I am saying is, if you don't want your kids to watch something then don't let them. It is that simple. THIS is how I work to correct the problem. Censorship has an ugly grip on this country with the likes of Hilary Clinton and Tipper gore as the standard-bearers. EDITED TO ADD: Next time, try to use words that are in the dictionary.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 10:34:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MisterGreens: . What the problem REALLY is, is people objecting to such a show and claiming it is anti-christian and is sending our kids the wrong message. I think that the wrong message is sent by objecting to anything that goes against the bible. I see it as persecution of 1st amendment rights. What I am saying is, if you don't want your kids to watch something then don't let them. It is that simple. THIS is how I work to correct the problem. Censorship has an ugly grip on this country with the likes of Hilary Clinton and Tipper gore as the standard-bearers. .
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Seems to me mebbe yer afraid to compete with Christianity in the free marketplace of ideas. Using censorship (to silence Chrsitianity's views agsainst homosexuality) to combat cersorship(Christianity's dislike for homosexuality) is a contradiction in terms. Simply state your opinion, and let Chrsitians state theirs. And then be willing to accept whoever's viewpoint wins out in teh free marketplace of ideas. Scary, ain't it???? [}:D]
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 10:45:43 AM EDT
Using censorship (to silence Chrsitianity's views agsainst homosexuality) to combat cersorship(Christianity's dislike for homosexuality) is a contradiction in terms.
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I am not using censorship to fight censorship. I didn't say that the conservative group who objected shoud be silenced. I absolutely believe in their right to speak up and have an opinion also. However, I think they are wrong to object to someone's right to free speech. If you say I am a hypocrite by wanting to silence people who are publicly trying to get a television show off of the air because it doesn't coincide with their beliefs, then yes, I am guilty as charged. They aren't simply disagreeing with the show, they are vehemently trying to prevent it from being aired. That is a violation of 1st amendment rights. This is my opinion alone. If you don't agree with me, then fine. Obviously people are entitled to their opinions.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 10:46:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2002 10:47:45 AM EDT by Max_Mike]
Do you really believe that it is Nickelodeon’s job to indoctrinate kids to certain value sets? This program is going to be pure propaganda aimed at promoting acceptance of certain lifestyle. How you feel about homosexuals is irrelevant. Whether you believe homosexuals should be allowed to adopt kids is really irrelevant. Nickelodeon is interjecting itself in a place it does not belong. Now flip the page are you going to be happy when Nickelodeon has a special with Sara Brady and other concerned parents to educate kids/families about the dangers of guns and calling for their ban? Nickelodeon has no business doing this and should be told that. You really need to apply a little logic and look at the path you are being lead down. If you think this will stop at this subject you need to wake up. If Nickelodeon is allow to promote its views with no penalty they is no telling what/who their propaganda machine will attack next. You really need to engage your mind and think out the consequences of what you think is OK before you open mouth and start throwing rocks at conservatives. Go back to grazing.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:00:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MisterGreens: I am not using censorship to fight censorship. I didn't say that the conservative group who objected shoud be silenced. I absolutely believe in their right to speak up and have an opinion also. However, I think they are wrong to object to someone's right to free speech. .
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Now think about this carefully..... Isn't an element of free speech the ability to use speech to criticize someone esle's use of free speech? Now, let me re-state, using names.... Isn't an element of (Christians) free speech the ability to use speech to criticize someone else's (Nickelodeons) use of free speech? You simply CANNOT logically say that Nickelodeo's right of free speech exempts them from having to hear Christians using their free speech to criticize Nickelodeons use of their free speech. In teh interests of full disclosure, I am AGAINST laws mandating Christianity, and its teachings, becoming the law of the land. that said, the more we as a nation choose to follow God's rules, the better off we'll be.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:07:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Isn't an element of free speech the ability to use speech to criticize someone esle's use of free speech?
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Absolutely. HOWEVER, my argument is that Nickelodeon should not be forced to take it off the air as the Traditional Values Coalition wants to happen. ANYONE can say ANYTHING they want!! But they should not be censored in the process. The Traditional Values Coalition can say anything they want, but they have no right to force a show off of the air.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:12:59 AM EDT
I'm glad the discussion hasn't gotten into a pissing match. Christians can't even agree on homosexuality. Roman Catholics: Gays ok, Gay Sex, not ok Episcopalians: Gays ok, sex outside marrige not ok. Metropolitan Christain Church: the gay church. 'nuff said. American Baptists: Gays ok Southern Baptists: Gays NOT ok and on and on. Best you can say is that CONSERVATIVE christains frown on homosexuality.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:18:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2002 11:26:01 AM EDT by liberty86]
Originally Posted By MisterGreens: Many times I find a news story about conservatives being way too conservative for my own tastes. Obviously, some people have different tastes than others, but here is my take. As much as I do not support the lifestyle of homosexuality, I do support the general will of the people.
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In other words, you have no principles...
This is another case of conservatives being a little too conservative. Now I am pretty damn far to the right, not quite as far as Rush though,
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Rush conservative?? Don't make me laugh!!
The world does not run on all Christian values anymore. Sorry.
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It never has, although most of our founders were believers.
It just seems to me that anytime something doesn't fit well in regards to almighty god or other 1940s values that some of these conservative share, they get upset because that is what they are programmed to do. Stop being such wussies, and toughen up a little will you?
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Funny, the further we get away from those "1940s values" you seem to think are for "wussies", the more school shootings we have, more drugs, more sex crimes, more lyin' politicians, more lawyers, less integrity in business, loss of national sovereignty, and on and on. Yep, your idea of "As much as I do not support (fill in the blanks), I do support the general will of the people", has really brought "progressive" values to our nation! See pal, you don't know WTF you believe. Go back to DU and try again.....
Maybe that's what you should do too.
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No thanks, there are plenty of you destroying our nation already. My principles don't change with the "will of the people".....
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:20:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bigyeti: Maybe we need the radical right to counter the radical left... Maybe...
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Arm both groups and let them fight to the death. That should thin both groups sufficiently.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:23:10 AM EDT
Don't blame television or that network either. They are simply responding to the market. By plopping your children in front of the telescreen...er..uh...television to watch mind-numbing pablum, you are accepting their terms. If you are really so "conservative" how about putting down the remote and picking up a book. or doing something that will engage your childs mind instead. I let my kids watch very little TV, and I ALWAYS know what is on. Rosie O and Jerry Falwell are simply media whores anyway...they can have absolutely no affect on your life UNLESS you allow them to. I find it troubling that anyone would allow Rosie to teach their children about parenting or relationships. I find it even more troubling that someone would allow Jerry Falwell to teach about values. These things should come ONLY from the parents.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:23:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
Originally Posted By bigyeti: Maybe we need the radical right to counter the radical left... Maybe...
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Arm both groups and let them fight to the death. That should thin both groups sufficiently.
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Dear Lord, Someone had the same thought I did, but the cajones to say it. Brother, I salute you! -legrue
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:24:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MisterGreens: The Traditional Values Coalition can say anything they want, but they have no right to force a show off of the air.
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Why not???? As long as they DO NOT use gov't to achieve their ends, or break the law, they can "force" (via free market forces) anyone to do anything. I give the same right to the pro-homosexual crowd, as well as the gun control crowd. I WELCOME THEM to try. Mostly cuz I am *** SO **** confident of the superiority and truth of my position, that I'm QUITE sure I can defeat them, given a free marketplacfe of ideas.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:28:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Using censorship (to silence Chrsitianity's views agsainst homosexuality) to combat cersorship(Christianity's dislike for homosexuality) is a contradiction in terms. Simply state your opinion, and let Chrsitians state theirs. And then be willing to accept whoever's viewpoint wins out in teh free marketplace of ideas. Scary, ain't it???? [}:D]
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What do you know, when you stray from the Middle East I can actually agree with you. Now THATS SCARY![}:D]
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:32:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:38:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By az_larry:
Originally Posted By garandman: Using censorship (to silence Chrsitianity's views agsainst homosexuality) to combat cersorship(Christianity's dislike for homosexuality) is a contradiction in terms. Simply state your opinion, and let Chrsitians state theirs. And then be willing to accept whoever's viewpoint wins out in teh free marketplace of ideas. Scary, ain't it???? [}:D]
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What do you know, when you stray from the Middle East I can actually agree with you. Now THATS SCARY![}:D]
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Well, then, by all means, let's avoid discussing Israel!!!!!!! [:D]
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:40:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Shadowblade: I don't see how they could FORCE Nickelodeon to take it off the air short of a hostile takeover. I don't think that happened - which means that when they applied their right to complain, Nickelodeon listened and took the show off the air. Or is there more to the story?
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well said shadowblade. Bottom line is this....the "bottom line." Nickelodeon prolly took the program off the air, as they figgered out they would lose viewership, and then lose advertising dollars, and they made a business decision.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:50:29 AM EDT
Don't worry, there are plenty of other choices... [img]http://www.adherents.com/rel_pie.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 12:37:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MisterGreens: If you say I am a hypocrite by wanting to silence people who are publicly trying to get a television show off of the air because it doesn't coincide with their beliefs, then yes, I am guilty as charged. They aren't simply disagreeing with the show, they are vehemently trying to prevent it from being aired. That is a violation of 1st amendment rights.
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I'm just curious: Were you this agitated when homosexuals did everything they could to get Dr. Laura off the air? Did you go around in a state of righteous indignation then too, and try to sway all the homosexuals you know to get off Dr. Laura's back? Somehow I doubt it. And it's not a violation of anyone's First Amendment rights for a group of private citizens to try and influence a network not to air a show containing material to which they object. It's only a First Amendment violation when the [b]government[/b] does it. [b]Article I Congress shall make no law[/b] respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or [b]abridging the freedom of speech[/b], or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[/b]
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 12:37:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2002 1:04:15 PM EDT by Boomer]
So lets' suppose that Nickolodean produced a show about guns that included segments claiming the Second Amendment only means the government has a right to own guns and ordinary citizens do not, that guns are the main cause of all the recent spate of school shootings, that guns have no useful, constructive purpose and exist only to kill, etc. Would you suggest that the NRA, various other pro-gun groups, and gun owners in general are narrow minded and ignorant for pressuring Nickolodean to not air the show and threatening financial repercussions (boycotting the network and it's advertisers) if they still chose to air it? Or how about when Rosie O'Donnel said all gun owners should be put in jail and we instantly boycotted K-Mart, helping lead it to it's current financial demise? But in your world, what other improper subjects should we try to brainwash our children about? The benefits of being a heroin junkie?
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 12:48:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: I'm just curious: Were you this agitated when homosexuals did everything they could to get Dr. Laura off the air? Did you go around in a state of righteous indignation then too, and try to sway all the homosexuals you know to get off Dr. Laura's back? Somehow I doubt it. b]
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WOW!!! What a GREAT point!!!! Wish I thunk of it!!!!! [tipping sombrero to jarhead]
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 12:56:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: WOW!!! What a GREAT point!!!! Wish I thunk of it!!!!! [tipping sombrero to jarhead]
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[;)]
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 12:59:38 PM EDT
Good points Boomer!!!!!! You guys don't need me round here. You got it covered!!!!!! I think I'll take a [strike] day [/strike] YEAR off. [:D]
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 1:26:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 1:26:38 PM EDT
Conservatives CAN be nonreligious or even antireligious (as I am). The two became somewhat intertwined due to the excesses of liberalism/Democrat party. Twas our boy Ronald Reagan who brought the 'big tent' concept to fruition. How long this can stay, I dunno. Since there's little rationale for much of religious thought anyway, the "pairing" of conservatism and religion could be temporary. If the high holy rollers have a new policy du jour and decide liberalism, etc. is good, many folk would go right along. Religion is a crutch for the weak-minded. These folks just can't deal with the fact that after they are dead, they're just a bunch of smelly meat. Since I won't have an afterlife, I try to enjoy this one as much as possible, as it's all I've got. For example, I don't want that idiotic creationism crap taught any more than I want to see "Guns Are Bad", "Junior Has Two Mommies", "Peace at Any Price" or "Taxes are Contributions" being taught: all are mental poison with a goal of indoctrination. Kids are to be taught the 3Rs at school; leave their socialization to the home & family. Bottom line: all I care about is minimal government, maximal freedom (with some nominal limits: peeing & defecating on the sidewalk in San Francisco streets is not a result of homelessness, it's just plain friggin' rude) and low taxes. Bill Wiese San Mateo, CA ... who likes to torment the Bible-Thumpers that come to his door.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 1:35:40 PM EDT
MisterGreens, You dont get mad with a kids cartoon channel pushing homosexuality? WTF is wrong with you? How can this not bother you? I don't condone murder but that doesn't mean I think others have the right to kill. Somethings the matter with you dude. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 1:42:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bwiese: Religion is a crutch for the weak-minded. These folks just can't deal with the fact that after they are dead, they're just a bunch of smelly meat. Since I won't have an afterlife, I try to enjoy this one as much as possible, as it's all I've got. Bill Wiese San Mateo, CA ... who likes to torment the Bible-Thumpers that come to his door.
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And people say Christians are close minded and intolerant!! Dude, you give non-believers a bad name. Talk about preaching!! Sgtar15 PS But I'll still pray for you[0:)]
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 2:09:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2002 2:13:55 PM EDT by bwiese]
Sgtar15...
bwiese wrote: ---------------------------------------- >Religion is a crutch for the weak-minded. >These folks just can't deal with the fact >that after they are dead, they're just >a bunch of smelly meat. Since I [know >I] won't have an afterlife, I try to >enjoy this one as much as possible, as >it's all I've got --------------------------------------
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Sgtar15 replied: -------------------------------------- >>And people say Christians are close >>minded and intolerant!! Dude, you give >>non-believers a bad name. Talk about >>preaching!! ---------------------------------------
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Preaching? I was merely explaining my position in response to the query posed by orig topic author. Close-minded? No, just unaccepting of irrational thought. People who didn't use LSD in the 60's were thought of as close-minded because they "didn't want to expand their mind". Ummm, intolerant? I have never stopped or interfered with a person from going to a church of any flavor. If that's the way he gets his jollies, fine. I do wish Sunday sermons would last longer though, so I could get a nice seat at my favorite breakfast restaurant for Sunday brunch. And I've never woken up neighbors trying to proselytize them - every coupla weeks my weekend-early morning sleep is broken by some yahoo pounding on my door passing leaflets. I am repeatedly presented with the "Truth du Jour" by various sects that all claim they have The One Right Answer, where in contrast, my lack of religion has never been forced on someone. In my mind, the only difference between a religion and a cult is the number of members. I have the same regard for people trying to force their religions down my throats as I do for vegetarians trying to convince me to not eat meat (see my dialogue at [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=109221&page=3[/url], 1st entry, about halfway down the page), or gun-control folks telling me I'm a safety hazard. Bill Wiese San Mateo, CA "The Pope wears a Rolex."
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 2:15:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
Originally Posted By bigyeti: Maybe we need the radical right to counter the radical left... Maybe...
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Arm both groups and let them fight to the death. That should thin both groups sufficiently.
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Nahh, forget the "arm both sides" part---let's fight it out with whatever you have on hand riiiiiiiiiiight, NOW.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 2:18:25 PM EDT
We're all ignorant to some degree. That is not dependant on political affiliation.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 2:45:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jz02: We're all ignorant to some degree. That is not dependant on political affiliation.
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This statement coming from [b]YOU[/b] is comedy gold. Thanks for the chuckles, jerky. the_reject
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 5:00:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2002 5:02:44 PM EDT by MisterGreens]
Originally Posted By sgtar15: MisterGreens, You dont get mad with a kids cartoon channel pushing homosexuality? WTF is wrong with you? How can this not bother you? I don't condone murder but that doesn't mean I think others have the right to kill. Somethings the matter with you dude. Sgtar15
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Yes Sgtar15, murder and wanting to allow a network to air what they want are the same thing. You got me. It doesn't bother me that they are airing the show, no. They are not preaching the children of America to become homosexuals as you point out. It is merely an informative show I would assume. The show is quoted as a show that will "explore the issue of gay parenting," not convert the impressionable youth of America to be gay. If you don't want your kids to watch it, then don't let them. Period.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 5:17:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2002 5:32:45 PM EDT by Teltech]
Proclaiming themselves wise, they became fools. Oh boy, I resent the fact that you call Christians ignorant.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 6:01:11 PM EDT
According to the above chart I am a 14 percenter.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 7:36:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AlClenin:
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
Originally Posted By bigyeti: Maybe we need the radical right to counter the radical left... Maybe...
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Arm both groups and let them fight to the death. That should thin both groups sufficiently.
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Nahh, forget the "arm both sides" part---let's fight it out with whatever you have on hand riiiiiiiiiiight, NOW.
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Ok but to make it even you only get to use one gun and you only get 10 rounds.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 9:47:00 PM EDT
MrGreens: No comment on your apparent hypocrisy regarding the homosexuals' organized attempt to bully Dr. Laura Schlesinger off the air or your confusion about who the First Amendment protects Americans and their free speech [b]from[/b]?
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 10:00:56 PM EDT
Parents = a man as the father and woman as the mother. There are no other valid combinations. If a TV station is saying there is then they are catering to a special interest group in order to spread propaganda at a young age. This is no different than the public schools spreading untrue anti-firearms propaganda. If it takes a religious Christian group to get this trash off the air so be it, regardless of the reason they may have for taking it off.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 10:12:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2002 10:13:05 PM EDT by legrue]
Originally Posted By Kroagnon: Parents = a man as the father and woman as the mother. There are no other valid combinations.
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Kroagnon, you fit under the original description of this thread. Me = adopted Mother = A1 good people Father = worthless POS. I would gladly have traded my father for most any of the gay women I have known over the years. Being a parent is A HELL OF A LOT more than biology! -legrue
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