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Posted: 6/7/2002 10:16:32 AM EDT
[#1]
C'mon, guys.
Lotsa smoke and heat generated here, but precious little light. Please leave off the personal stuff, and keep it in bounds. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 10:20:22 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Maybe I should demand an apology from this bitch. Uhh... Now that IS a bit out of line. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 10:26:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Seems like lots of people were OK with Tatjana when she was just a hot, knowledgeable, gun-shooting lady.
Now that she takes a position offensive to some, some of you are ready to deport her. Look at yourselves for a second. Are you [b]really[/b] happy about this thread, and what it says about us and this site? |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 10:28:46 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Seems like lots of people were OK with Tatjana when she was just a hot, knowledgeable, gun-shooting lady. She still is. She's just WAAAAYY off base on this one. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 10:37:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Maybe she is off-base. Maybe not.
That's no good excuse for some of the behavior here. I don't claim she's as innocent as a lamb. Who is? Not me. for sure. Even if she's totally off base, no excuse for what's nearly a virtual lynching. I'm ashamed at some of the posts here. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 10:37:12 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Seems like lots of people were OK with Tatjana when she was just a hot, knowledgeable, gun-shooting lady. Now that she takes a position offensive to some, some of you are ready to deport her. Look at yourselves for a second. Are you [b]really[/b] happy about this thread, and what it says about us and this site? Im indifferent to her. Always have been. I could care less what her physical attributes may or may not be. Even if some members do seem to be star struck and fawn over her, does that give her the right to make callous, offensive, uncalled for remarks about Americans and America in general and then cry foul when she gets called out for it? I don't think so. If Americans act abroad as she did in that thread, it's no wonder why so many in the rest of the world dislike us. She certainly isn't doing Europe any favor by attacking and insulting America like that. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 10:38:35 AM EDT
[#7]
Ok, comment edited. "Bitch" was probably a little out of line --- I just figured that if she was going to complain about me "personally attacking" her with "offensive" comments I'd give her something to complain about.
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Posted: 6/7/2002 10:40:27 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Quoted: Seems like lots of people were OK with Tatjana when she was just a hot, knowledgeable, gun-shooting lady. Now that she takes a position offensive to some, some of you are ready to deport her. Look at yourselves for a second. Are you [b]really[/b] happy about this thread, and what it says about us and this site? Im indifferent to her. Always have been. I could care less what her physical attributes may or may not be. Even if some members do seem to be star struck and fawn over her, does that give her the right to make callous, offensive, uncalled for remarks about Americans and America in general and then cry foul when she gets called out for it? I don't think so. If Americans act abroad as she did in that thread, it's no wonder why so many in the rest of the world dislike us. She certainly isn't doing Europe any favor by attacking and insulting America like that. Well, Boomer, I won't say you're wrong. I partly agree BUT Seems like I've heard worse from some folks in the real world that were born here. Nothing she's said could come close to the hate in a Farrakhan or a Klan speech. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 10:42:41 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Nothing she's said could come close to the hate in a Farrakhan or a Klan speech. True, True. I would rather have her aroung and disagree on this issue than have those "gentlemen" around. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 10:44:28 AM EDT
[#10]
I gotta go.
When I get back, I hope you ALL will have taken a break from this. I hope you'll do yourselves, and the site [b]proud[/b]. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 10:48:01 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Seems like I've heard worse from some folks in the real world that were born here. Nothing she's said could come close to the hate in a Farrakhan or a Klan speech. That I can agree with. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 10:48:58 AM EDT
[#12]
I'm gonaa offer you two ways to end this crap. Either you do it yourselves, or I'm going to. If I do it, someone's not gonna like it. You read me AL???? Please make just one smart assed comment.
Edited to add: Al, next time you feel the need to refer to someone as a bitch, please try me. I'll be your huckleberry. Deal???? |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 11:02:18 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: . This would be, like seat belt laws, and many other things, beginning of more onerous things to come... quote] This is probably the smartest comment of today. Bahahah |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 11:21:16 AM EDT
[#14]
[b]
Quoted: ... Maybe I should demand an apology from this bitch. Come on guy. I know all of you are very passionate about this issue, and that shows you members here care about how to stop terrorism in this country, in particular, and the world, in general. But please, be cool, and civil about it, and stop calling members "name". Emotion can be a good thing and it is also a bad thing. We are in this together, and we, all, have different opinions on things, so we DISCUSS it, and learn from each other. It can be a little, or it can be a lot, but we learn from each other. Anyway, my thinking about fingerfrinting is just one of a way, NOT THE ONLY WAY, to get additional data for either present and future use. Because our country is no longer the same as 5 or 10 years ago. Members, here, worry about losing freedom gradually. Well, it might be true, but we are juggling between freedom and security here. and some rather have more freedom than security--and it is perfectly understandable. Of course, there are different methods and plans that also need to be implement such as, borders issue, immigration issue, etc... Now let look at the point of view of US government. Whatever US govt does, there will be opposition. If US govt starts to do fingerfrinting, check everyone's driver license(just an example),etc... then we lose our freedom. If US govt doesn't do that we feel enough and therefore another "2nd attack", then our govt doesn't do a good job. Well, so who to blame here? It is not easy as we thought, and we know that. If you are Prez Bush and your Cabinet, what would you do? And whatever you do, there are people who will oppose your plan, so you keep going or stop? You will do what you think it is best for your country at this particular time. A side note: My wife once told me: "I wish we go back 5 yrs ago, when we don't have to worry about terrorism, because now, it is always in the back of my mind." And I told her: "True, and we just have to adjust accordingly, and keep our eyes open." Damn, just get a headache. Oh, 2 cents, of course!! Edited to add: didn't know that AL was edited his.[:D] |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 11:29:46 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: A side note: My wife once told me: "I wish we go back 5 yrs ago, when we don't have to worry about terrorism, because now, it is always in the back of my mind." And I told her: "True, and we just have to adjust accordingly, and keep our eyes open." Oh yes we did have plenty of reason to worry about terrorism 5 years ago. The first terrorist attack on the WTC was a full 9 years ago. We should have started fingerprinting foreigners entering our country back THEN. Unfortunately, I don't think even the deaths of 3,000 Americans and complete destruction of the WTC was enough to wake most of America from it's peaceful slumber. Oh sure, we got up for moment, maybe took a leak, and most of us have since gone right back to bed. Perhaps after a major metropolitan center is vaporized and MILLIONS are killed will we begin to take border security much more seriously and insist on knowing precisely who we are allowing into our country, including methods as non-invasive as fingerprinting them. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 11:35:35 AM EDT
[#16]
Sieg Heil Mein Fuhrer!
Gotta love it when resident aliens lay down the law and decide who fits into what category, while objecting to the same. Tatjana, I responded to you in the other thread with respect (even kid gloves, though you seem to have no trouble throwing barbs back at your written sparring partners) but as you have chosen to dismiss me as some vicious bigot I don't think that's necessary anymore. Quoted: Quoted: I doubt my family would even permit me to if I wanted. So much for freedom and independence. [:D] Did that offend you? Because I can't find anything else. I found it a humorous contrast to the rest of your pontifications. Jeffery on the other hand is a nut, and calling people crazy has never been grounds for anything here that I've ever seen enforced. Anyone that suggests breaking up my country into a dozen or so states like the Balkans should be called on the carpet. What you are really saying is that you want to have your say but don't want any critical responses. Sounds like a spoiled child, and Boomer is right, you are hyper-sensitive. Fingerprinting is not the end all and be all of terrorism prevention (or any crime for that matter). It is simply one more data point for the LE agencies and intelligence services to work with. If they bust Mohamed for something and Faisal's prints are all over the criminal evidence then they know who else to look for. By focusing your entire arguement on fingerprinting as the sole method in any investigation you miss the point. And by objecting to profiling and identifying visitors from [b]certain countries[/b] you miss it again. If we simply denied entry to those foreign nationals outright - as we have in past wars - people would probably take this "war" more seriously. And it is a war. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 11:37:56 AM EDT
[#17]
I have gone out of my way to contribute to the United States. I have happily adopted it and it's citizens as my home and brothers and sisters. Every dollar I spend here goes directly to the trade balance as every dollar I spend here was made outside the United States. I probably pay more in U.S. taxes than my critics on that thread combined. Bad news: if it was true that still doesn't give you any say in this country's affairs. It is also a very immature arguement (you know, the kind you object to). As you threw that out there (as if it was some kind of real arguement [rolleyes]), why don't tell the class how much that is... and why you are paying *ANY* income taxes at all when the money was "made outside the United States." Bizarre! Oh wait... you spend MILLIONS and it's the state sales tax (much lower than Euro VAT taxes) that adds up to more than all of our income taxes combined. Hold on a moment! Oregon has no sales tax!! This is just a mystery figuring out why you are paying so much in US Taxes on your foreign money. [img]http://www.rapidforum.at/smilies/y136.gif[/img] Interesting fact: Americans tourists and residents spend more money in Europe than Europeans spend here. Last I heard the Europeans didn't think that entitled them to anything, least of all a say in how their countries were run. After 9-11 a Saudi prince offered ten million dollars along with some similar words of wisdom... the money was returned by Mayor Guiliani. Foreigners who think that they should have some say in our policies and that their money buys them something are "part of the problem." |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 11:50:29 AM EDT
[#18]
[b]
Quoted: Quoted: A side note: My wife once told me: "I wish we go back 5 yrs ago, when we don't have to worry about terrorism, because now, it is always in the back of my mind." And I told her: "True, and we just have to adjust accordingly, and keep our eyes open." Oh yes we did have plenty of reason to worry about terrorism 5 years ago. The first terrorist attack on the WTC was a full 9 years ago. We should have started fingerprinting foreigners entering our country back THEN. Unfortunately, I don't think even the deaths of 3,000 Americans and complete destruction of the WTC was enough to wake most of America from it's peaceful slumber. Oh sure, we got up for moment, maybe took a leak, and most of us have since gone right back to bed. Perhaps after a major metropolitan center is vaporized and MILLIONS are killed will we begin to take border security much more seriously and insist on knowing precisely who we are allowing into our country, including methods as non-invasive as fingerprinting them. You are correct, I totally forgot about it. Make it 10 years ago, shall we?[:D] |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 12:12:17 PM EDT
[#19]
We can't even keep poor, destitute (by our standards) Mexicanos from slipping across the border. How do we hope to stop determined attackers who will [b]GLADLY[/b] die to take one of us with them? And why do we suddenly treat a [b]VALUED[/b] member of this forum like fecal matter just because she has the insight to realize that finger-printing is just a feel good measure? (If anything, DNA samples would serve better. At least there might some DNA laying around after a homicide bombing.)
Want this country safe from outside enemies? It took [b]MILLIONS[/b] of mines to form the Iron Curtain in Germany. (According to Guinness Book of World Records 1988 Edition: 2,230,000 land mines and 50,000 [b]MILES[/b] of barbed wire. The mines and guards killed 184 up to that point. [b]THIRTY[/b] people got through, despite the barrier.) Now, how much damage could thirty to fifty people crossing our border and meaning us harm do? Their were (IIRC) nineteen high-jackers involved actively in the 9/11 crashes. Even if we stopped [b]ALL[/b] incoming ground, air, and sea traffic we still would not be safe. And that is if we were to actively seal our borders. Now, how homocide bombers will something passive, like fingerprinting, stop? Honestly.... Tatjana chose this country as a second home for her own reasons. I don't know what they were. But maybe some of them included reasons she must now re-think. After carefully considering how hostile people here have been to her. I am ashamed of you..... Scott |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 12:23:02 PM EDT
[#20]
(If anything, DNA samples would serve better. At least there might some DNA laying around after a homicide bombing.) But, how would this prevent an attack? The authorities would be able to identify the bomber [b]after the attack had already occurred[/b]. I don't see how fingerprinting would be effective in preventing attacks. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 12:24:41 PM EDT
[#21]
I hereby authorize my 2002 income taxes to be earmarked for the construction of the "Great Wall of America" along both of our borders.
Only David Copperfield could get through. [:D] |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 12:25:58 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: (If anything, DNA samples would serve better. At least there might some DNA laying around after a homicide bombing.) But, how would this prevent an attack? The authorities would be able to identify the bomber [b]after the attack had already occurred[/b]. I don't see how fingerprinting would be effective in preventing attacks. Someone may have other information, but I was reading that the govt. got alot of fingerprints while clearing caves, houses and such in Afganistan. These are now on file. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 12:36:31 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Tatjana chose this country as a second home for her own reasons. I don't know what they were. But maybe some of them included reasons she must now re-think. After carefully considering how hostile people here have been to her. I am ashamed of you..... Listen up. I don't have a problem with tatjana or her opinions. Even if they differ from my own. If she wants to re-think her reasons for being her, it should beased upon her openly expressed belief that America is the same kind of place to live in as the Soviet Union was 30 years ago. Those are her words, not mine. She thus far refuses to retract them or even acknowledge them as untruthful, inappropriate, insulting, and uncalled for. In fact, she is actively trying to get me banned or disciplined for my pointed but reasonable response to her. Were her remark true, I would fully expect and even encourage her to pack up and leave our hostile, intolerant, and oppressive nation. But alas, here she remains, now expounding upon the freedoms she enjoys here. Must be some kind of Communist hell, huh? I don't know what kind of guest you are when you visit someone else's home or country, but I consider it quite rude to go trash the people and/or the home being visited and would never do so myself. That is what I would be ashamed of. As RAF said, there has been a lot worse said about America by Americans ourselves. But I don't think that in any way excuses a visiting guest from making blanket condemnations about us or our country and then not expecting to receive a vigorous response. Hopefully she show some maturity and responsibility and apologize for her remark or at least quit bringing it up and allow the issue to cool off and blow over. Let's see what happens. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 12:38:08 PM EDT
[#24]
Folks, fingerprints have wonderful properties as useful tools in a lot of scenarios.
And if it serves no purpose to investigate a bombing after it occurs, why do the Israelis seem to spend so much time in going over the evidence gleaned from a successful suicide bombing? We do it, too, as well as every modern nation. To gather evidence that may help prevent future events. If we know whose body we are looking at, we may find out something about those assisting him in his crime. Think about it carefully, before you pooh-pooh the idea. Besides, as I've said before, it's our house, it's [b][u]our[/u] rules![/b] Eric The(AndRulesAreRules,Remember?)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 12:41:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Let's roll across countries that harbor these killers of women, children, and freedom and show them no mercy. Unconventional warfare requires some unconventional tactics. Let's fight this war on our level and on our schedule. Let us dictate the rules and the limits of the playing field. Amen! This is the answer, not removing any of our freedoms! I think this is the answer to the "drug war" as well. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 12:42:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: (If anything, DNA samples would serve better. At least there might some DNA laying around after a homicide bombing.) But, how would this prevent an attack? The authorities would be able to identify the bomber [b]after the attack had already occurred[/b]. I don't see how fingerprinting would be effective in preventing attacks. My point, Sir. Fingerprints and DNA both would fail to stop attacks. But in the clean-up, DNA would be easier to identify than prints from (at best) shredded flesh..... Scott |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 12:43:51 PM EDT
[#27]
The people dead set against requiring foreigners to be fingerprinted are stuck in the paradigm of current law enforcement technique, where fingerprints are only used to solve a crime after it has been committed.
Who cares as much about identifying the corpse of a terrorist as much as preventing the attack in the first place? If we can use fingerprints as way to help positively identify those who wish to come and visit us and aid in sorting out those who wish to kill us, why not? Why do nothing? Don't you people get it yet? We are at WAR with people who want to KILL ALL OF US. But damn, we'd better respect their feelings in the process of defending ourselves, right? [rolleyes] |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 12:48:47 PM EDT
[#28]
Boomer in a war you kill people not take their fingerprints............
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Posted: 6/7/2002 12:53:23 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Boomer in a war you kill people not take their fingerprints............ Hmmm, does that aplly to POWs captured before or during the process of attacking us? Or are you suggesting that we simply kill every Arab attempting to enter our country? Requiring fingerpints is a measured, non-invasive response. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 1:00:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: So what could be done? 1. Take off the gloves. Revoke Executive order 12333. 1976, President Gerald R. Ford issued Executive Order 11905 which, among other things, prohibited political assassination, reading in part: "Prohibition on Assassination. No employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassination." Carter and then Reagan affirmed the orders, the Reagan version, 12333, remains on the books. The United States needs to send the message that the gloves are off with respect to leaders who sponsor or encourage terrorism. Giving the United States intelligence apparatus the ability to strike in this fashion, and making it clear that the threat is a very real one, is an important tool of defense in the modern terrorist world. BWWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! LMFAO!!! Ma'am, I know that you weren't born here, but do you really believe that 12333 has EVER stopped our security/intelligence agencies from carrying out and/or sponsoring an assassination of a political figure??? Do you believe in Santa Claus too? |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 1:09:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Boomer, do we know they have taken money from criminal organizations?........boom bye bye
As for the non-terrorists muslims...nope sorry gate closed...... And bring me the head of osama and quit jacking around lighteneing the bill of rights... |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 1:17:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: When will America no longer be America? So far, at 29, I have managed not to be fingerprinted - ever. I have a VERY hard time believing that. You probably were fingerprinted as a child, and you don't remember. Your state doesn't require prints to purchase a firearms? Nope, not fingerprinted. My parents never allowed it when I was growing up in Texas (see ETH's post) and I have never done it as an adult. I didn't even have a social security number until I was 12. The only reason they got me one then was for the Permanent Fund Dividend when we moved to Alaska. My state does not require prints to purchase firearms and I don't believe it should. I was shocked when I heard of some banks requiring a thumbprint for transactions. The only reason I did not get my CCW a few months ago is because I was still debating whether I should give up my prints and what down side that might have in the future. I decided in the end to go ahead and get it but by that time I did not have the money for the permit, so until I do that I remain unprinted. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 1:19:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Amen, [b]Brother hound[/b], preach it Son, preach it!
Before we lose one more jot or tittle of our rights as American citizens, I would rather that the United States became the 'Great Satan' that the others fear and make their fears justified! After this is all over, I care not that the Middle East is in ashes and cinders, so long as 'the last great hope of mankind' (R.Reagan) is still left standing! I say we all meet at both borders and hold hands. [b]NO PASARAN![/b] (They shall not pass!) shall be our battle cry! Or we could just station soldiers there. [:D] Eric The(HaveYouEverTriedToCrossTheSonoranDesert?)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 1:21:09 PM EDT
[#34]
Good points so far, interesting reading.
Alright, if we use fingerprinting as a means of ID, fine. It may help weed out those who attempt to enter via conventional means. The problem is convincing the public that there is an increased need for patrols along our borders and coast. This could be costly and few politicians ans sheeple would go along with it. The politicians we have are good at creating a false sense of security, many people (sheeple) like to hear the government say "Everything is alright, everything is under control". We had the assistant mayor here in Los Angeles saying that they were in complete control of the city after the bombings on Sept. 11 - This is NOT possible. I told my brother that they should not make such statements and just say that all is being done to TRY to prevent anything further from happening but... he says, "Some people need to hear that, they won't FEEL secure until they do". We are not secure, probably never will be 100%. Why live in a fantasy! [b]This is not to say do little or nothing but be realistic[/b] Another question many will ask is that by creating this [i]parameter[/i] around the country are we sacreficing (?sp) our liberties to do so?? If I go out on a boat to fish will i be subjected to inspection and boarding upon my return to U.S. waters? If so doesn't this violate my rights, if not what would stop someone who is willing to assist terrorist - pick them up in international waters and bring them ashore. Many questions, many uncertainties, many thoughts.............. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 1:39:30 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: My point, Sir. Fingerprints and DNA both would fail to stop attacks. Here are a few examples of how fingerprinting might help: 1. Abdul is sent by Osama to reconoitter for a terrorist attack in your town. Abdul enters legally and is fingerprinted. He cases the target and returns to Pakistan. In the meantime, the Israilis obtain Abduls name as a possible terrorist. Abdul can not now lead his deadly band of terrorists to attack your town - or at least it is going to much more difficult for him to do so, because the simple option of obtaining fake ID is no longer available to him. 2. Abdul enters the US legally. He is planning to attack your town. US special forces catch his brother, who tattles. Abdul appears on the FBI's most wanted. Abdul gets a fake ID. Abdul is pulled over for speeding, and is arrested for having a concealed weapon. Nevertheless, he is identified through fingerprints and your town is saved. 3. Abdul is a young Palestinian and is captured by the Israelis in the infatada. He is fingerprinted. Later, he joins up with Osama. Guess what: Abdul is not to get here the easy way. 4. Abdul works for the Pakistani nuclear weapons program. Of course, he is fingerprinted. We bribe the Pakistani security minister and obtain this information. When Abdul goes and works for Osama, he can not get a fake ID and fly Abdul straight to your home town without making Tom Ridge go "hmmmmm." Of course fingerprinting is not the whole answer. But it will make things more difficult for the terrorists. Fingerprinting will need to be combined with better border security, better background investigations and much better record keeping. All of those steps are more important than fingerprinting. But fingerprints are essential in order to prevent terrorists who we know about from simply obtaining fake ID. There will be no single solution to this problem, and there will never be absolute security. Every little bit helps, and this step has zero impact on the rights of citizens. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 1:48:03 PM EDT
[#36]
Here is a very interesting article by John Derbyshire of National Review, and I think it nicely covers why many more thousands of Americans will have to be incinerated before the government starts taking the protection of its citizens seriously: [url]http://www.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire052402.asp[/url]
Here is an excerpt, but the whole thing is worth reading: The state we have sunk to, after 30 years of political correctness, is that we would rather permit ourselves and our fellow citizens to be slaughtered by lunatics than run the risk that we might hurt the feelings of foreign guests. Our dogged belief that every culture is just as worthy and admirable as every other will admit of no exceptions; it even extends to those cultures where children are raised from infancy to hate Jews and the Great Satan. Said [Ann Coulter] last October: "Ordinary Americans aren't going to die for political correctness." Oh, yes we are, Ma'am — gladly, willingly! We far prefer an agonizing death to the possibility we might give offense to the differently religioned. Here in what my colleague Florence King calls "The Republic of Nice" we have reached the reductio ad absurdum of racial sensitivity: Better dead than rude. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 1:48:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Why not make it truly universal? Fingerprint [b]ALL[/b] aliens and all Americans? I have been fingerprinted twice (at the MEPS Station in Richmond). I didn't feel a thing either time. Am I worried? No, because I have only ever committed minor moving traffic violations. The law-abiding are safe from fear. While we are at, why not DNA sample [b]EVERYONE[/b] who is in or enters the US?
Scott |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 1:55:12 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Why not make it truly universal? Fingerprint [b]ALL[/b] aliens and all Americans? I have been fingerprinted twice (at the MEPS Station in Richmond). I didn't feel a thing either time. Am I worried? No, because I have only ever committed minor moving traffic violations. The law-abiding are safe from fear. While we are at, why not DNA sample [b]EVERYONE[/b] who is in or enters the US? Scott: There are at least two problems with universal fingerprinting. First, you will violate the fourth amendment when you do this. Second, this "solution" is far too broad for the much narrower problem. If you will recall ([;)]), all of the terrorists were foreign Muslim nationals. Note: taking fingerprints from foreign nationals does not violate the 4th Amendment, which protects only "the people" not all "persons." I cited a Supreme Court case to this effect in the other thread. Further note: I think all foreign Muslims is about as narrow as we can make the group of suspect persons. Maybe Muslim males of military age possibly, but in Israel teenage girls have made attacks. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 2:02:54 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Why not make it truly universal? Fingerprint [b]ALL[/b] aliens and all Americans? I have been fingerprinted twice (at the MEPS Station in Richmond). I didn't feel a thing either time. Am I worried? No, because I have only ever committed minor moving traffic violations. The law-abiding are safe from fear. While we are at, why not DNA sample [b]EVERYONE[/b] who is in or enters the US? Scott With all due respect to the "Mark of the Beast' crowd, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Given the nature of technology, crime, and world politics, I think it or even the dreaded CHIP is inevitable Read Arthur C. Clark's "3001, The Final Odyssey" for a take ID chips. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 2:26:14 PM EDT
[#40]
Just a note, I've been accused of as a troll too, and that is not the case. Some on this board exhibit extreme xenophobia and are overly emotional. Tatjana made some good points regarding finger printing and I agree with her. Politicians are known for these feel good laws that are ineffective in reality but provide a false sense of safety. Perhaps you can blame public education for the lack of a logical refutation to tatjana's points and the extreme xenophobia here. I think it's best to keep emotions out of political discussions. Anger clouds judgement.
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Posted: 6/7/2002 2:30:31 PM EDT
[#41]
jz02,
If only we could all do that. Everyone, Sure fingerprinting and DNA typing U.S. citizens violates the Fourth Amendment. (At the very least.) But, do we really want to feel safe? Whether we are or not? Because universal application will do what the "target audience" fingerprinting tries to do. It will make us feel safer, whether we are or not not withstanding.... Scott |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 2:31:37 PM EDT
[#42]
so, DNA samples and chip implants, what's next? Mind links? You want to be a borg don't you?
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Posted: 6/7/2002 2:36:00 PM EDT
[#43]
I don't want to feel safe, I want to be safe. That's the difference between a law and a solution. Finger printing is a feel good law, it's not a solution.
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Posted: 6/7/2002 2:37:00 PM EDT
[#44]
I am almost positive I never said I was in favor of any kind of implants. (The whole reason why DNA sampling violates the Fourth Amendment is that it would, if universally applied, solve a [b]LOT[/b] of outstanding crimes. The ones where DNA is in evidence bags, but not tied to a definate person, because that person has not been sampled.)
The example of fingerprinting us and taking our DNA was to point out something that may have been on Tatjana's mind. (Were only two or three people upset by the prospect of being treating like a criminal arbitrarily, or did others just not comment?) Scott |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 2:39:48 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: so, DNA samples and chip implants, what's next? Mind links? You want to be a borg don't you? Resistance is Futile. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 2:53:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Just a note, I've been accused of as a troll too, and that is not the case. Some on this board exhibit extreme xenophobia and are overly emotional. Tatjana made some good points regarding finger printing and I agree with her. Politicians are known for these feel good laws that are ineffective in reality but provide a false sense of safety. Perhaps you can blame public education for the lack of a logical refutation to tatjana's points and the extreme xenophobia here. I think it's best to keep emotions out of political discussions. Anger clouds judgement. Wow. Talk about hypocritical. Both Tatjana and jz02 are critical of others for making it personal and for replying with anger. Then Tatjana excplicitly states that the US is inferior to the Soviet Union in terms of human rights, and jz02 says that we do not agree with him becaus our educational system - and therefore our intelligence - is inferior. What a joke. What a pair. On the contrary, while you may think that no one is refuting your points logically, that has been done extensively and pretty much conclusively. You can only reply to logic with slander. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 3:06:30 PM EDT
[#47]
At least Tatjana put a considerable amount of thought into her post, much of which I agree with. Others thought their positions through as well.
While fingerprinting may help after the fact, it would mostly be an exercise in influencing public perception that our government is doing something to protect us. (Sound familiar?) You can't seal the borders. How many [b]tons[/b] of drugs enter this country each year, even with all the resources devoted to stopping the flow? This is really an intelligence war. Using fingerprints and sealing the border reminds me of the Redcoats and the American Colonists. The British were defeated because they used conventional techniques against an unconventional opponent. Guess what? We won. Let's not allow the terrorist to say the same thing. (Edited for clarity.) |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 6:42:00 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Quoted: (If anything, DNA samples would serve better. At least there might some DNA laying around after a homicide bombing.) But, how would this prevent an attack? The authorities would be able to identify the bomber [b]after the attack had already occurred[/b]. I don't see how fingerprinting would be effective in preventing attacks. Someone may have other information, but I was reading that the govt. got alot of fingerprints while clearing caves, houses and such in Afganistan. These are now on file. I posted that on the first frickin page, and NO ONE acknowledged it while they just played pissy pants with each other. The fingerprints of people who participated in the training camps, hid in the caves, and other parts are now on file folks! These are people we don't have the names of. Just fingerprints. But you do have a point. Without protecting the borders fingerprinting accomplishes nothing. We have to start somewhere, and the first step should be re-inforcing the borders. Furthermore, why the hell are we searching pilots and flight crews at airports? Why are we doing "random" searches that effect 80 year old grandmothers, injured armed forces members, and others who are not going to blow up planes, yet searching very few, if any, arabs or middle easterners? I talked to a guy who works airport security recently who said they are afraid to search anyone looking middle eastern because they don't want to be accused of racial profiling! Let's see... What's the percentage of hijackers who are from the middle east or arabs? I guarantee you it's a hell of a lot higher than 80 year old grandmothers. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 7:41:30 PM EDT
[#49]
I saw the security trolls at the airport make a 95 year old man get up from a wheel chair so they could pat him down, and look over the chair... and it was an airport supplied wheelchair!
I must have pissed them off when I glared at them and said, "Aren't you ashamed of yourselves?" They did not pat down or wand the Middle Easterners. And these trolls could hardly speak English. In a US airport. Now, if these guys were citizens, tell me, how the hell did they manage to grow up in the US without learning to speak English passibly? And they were little unarmed wusses, I could have taken out both of them by myself without getting winded, and been out of the area before they could have gotten help. They were that careless. No, we don't have security in our airports, just a lot of show. No, fingerprinting will not do the job, it only works AFTER someone commits a crime and is caught. What will work is for us to go and take out the countries we know are supporting terrorism... and it is GOVERNMENTS that are backing this, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, Syria, Libya, etc. Kick their ass and take their gas. |
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Posted: 6/7/2002 7:48:00 PM EDT
[#50]
It sucks to be the honorable one. In a perfect world stage one of our war on terrorism would have been a nice mushroom over Bahgdad (However the freak they spell it now)....
Scott |
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