Many here are history buffs.  I wonder if we can apply the logic of code breaking to this problem.  We never announced we had broken codes and in fact went out of our way to plant misinformation that led the enemy in the opposite direction.

All this fingerprinting stuff may or may not be effective.  Instead of entering the US legally they might choose other routes which are numerous.  Perhaps it would be wiser to allow these people to be more free in their movements, hoping they will become lax and secure.  There is plenty of evidence that we have been able to find them and track them and that they are not that smart ....sometimes.  

We identified all the Homicide/Bombers of 9-11 without this and it's difficult to find a benefit in being able to hold up their fingerprint card AFTER THE FACT.  I'm all for tracking VISA holders and limiting them as necessary and expelling them with expedience and prejudice.  I'm just not sure we have the resources to track down hundreds or thousands of terrorists who operate as bin Laden does, underground and with a support network. No foreigner has a right to be in this country, especially if they are violating the law.

What do the Israelis do?  It seems so simple to ask experts who have proven to be successful in this area.  Why we insist on building a better mousetrap ALL the time only answers the question of why we have such a HUGE government and one that doesn't seem much interested in cooperation but is very interested in turf, funding and job security.

First off, they have been using the face recognition technology in the NY area and I'm sure it would be extended to use print technology for major landmarks like the statue of liberty and other tourist sites.  Then, (oh the horror) if a person DID in fact commit a terrorist act, their prints could be compiled from all of the "hot" tourist spots to see if there was a trend with other middle easterners on those specific dates to then go after those guys before they are able to do anything horrible.  

Second, if you honestly think that tourists will stop coming here because they need to be printed, then I say good ridance!  This country isn't St. Martin where we depend on tourists for survival.  And if those tourists have REASON to not come in and give their prints, then what are they doing wrong in this country that they have to fear the system?  I am not a person worried about being printed for gun ownership, since I do not commit felonies, but I am worried about the ability for the gov to declare all guns illegal one day and for them to know I am an owner.  Immigrants don't have the same concern.  The government already knows who immigrates to the country (excluding the illegals), so printing them would not lead to an "immigrant ban" leading to deportations (without cause) in the future!  

Its absurd for you to say that this would be useless!  Especially since I just told you how it would create a "paper trail" of their activities and movements.  This papertrail might not STOP them, but it sure as hell would catch their rag head buddies!  There are a number of ways the prints can be used, but its important to be able to track movements, which is what I think is their main concern.  So a foreignor has to provide their "papers"...big f'in deal!  I'd prefer death camps for the murderous muslim plague, but that's why I'm not the president right now and why my friend's parents are still crying over their graves since 9/11.

My background is as both military (13 yrs) and civilian (4 yrs) police. I love the fact that the "All men are created equal line" comes up. This doesn't infer any damn special rights on anyone because of race, religion, creed, or any other differentiating standards. All, and I mean all, that this means is that at birth all men (and women by implication) have the same opportunity at birth to make something of themselves. This statement does not mean that we have to hold everybody by the hand just so that they can be like everybody else. There are people throughout history that made something of themselves without having quotas, and preferential treatment. If you are not a citizen of the USA, then submit proof and identification in order to enter. If not stay the hell out.

So you're saying you wouldn't mind having to give your fingerprints to get into the Statue of Liberty?



So they just stay away from the Statue of Liberty and then you can't track them, can you?  Why would they enter the few tourist sites in NYC that were taking fingerprints anyway?  And that's assuming that the American public would all submit to being fingerprinted in order to enter the Statue of Liberty, which I doubt.



What do you mean by that?  I thought the suicide bombers had killed themselves.

Boston:  I agree with you that research on Saudis and other Muslims who want to come to this country is a good idea.  But I think it is nicely complimented by fingerprinting.  As I said before, we can start building a database.  Other countries could supplement this, including Israel and our "moderate Arab allies."  And if we make a mistake and let someone in we should not have, it will be easier to get them out with fingerprints.  IDs are just too easy to fake.  A lot of wanted people are picked up on traffic or other trivial violations, and fingerprints are the best way to tie them to their real identity.

As to it not being worth it to fingerprint because we might make some people mad, I think that is tuff for them.  They are guests who DO NOT VOTE.  If they do not like it, they can go home to all of those civil rights paridises like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria.

Really, we must look pretty stupid to the rest of the world to even be having this argument.  Here we arguing about whether potential terrorists should be fingerprinted, when in these people's home country you need a need a permit to be a reporter and praying to the wrong God is a capital crime!

Okay, that's a possible use.  First good one I've heard of so far.  Again, I don't know if that would make it worthwhile, though.



Why don't we just strip search all of them, then?  And maybe beat every third one really good?  After all, they don't vote and they come from civil rights hellholes, they're probably used to it.  Just because we have the power to do something doesn't mean it is the wisest or most effective thing to do.



So we should want to be more like Saudi Arabia?

I think we are more than willing to take that risk.  It is not like our economy is driven by tourism.  This is our house, live by our rules.  Foreigners do not have the same rights as citizens ("the people").

As far as this argument that fingerprints will not help, see my post directly above.  Say a bad guy gets in the country, and gets fake ID.  Fingerprints would help apprehend him.  Remember, Tim McVeigh was stopped for a traffic violation.  This is not unusual.

Funny how you blabber your opinions so easily, but when you are questioned on them, you simply ignore the question directed to you entirely and reply with yet another question.

Once again:
How does positively identifying potential terrorist [u]non-citizens[/u] equate with living in a "police state"?

And then they won't be able to shuttle around Europe for Al Qaida "organizational meetings" and back to America as some of the known terrorists have already done.


Have you ever been to an American bank that requires thumbprints on-the-spot to cash checks?

Get a clue.

Good. The United States is nothing but an international flop-house at the moment, and while this won't change that it is a good first start.

There is a farily recent Supreme Court case that says this is OK.  The Supremes sensibly realized that the threshhold for reasonableness as far as searches and siezures is diminished at the border.

Sure, but just because we might offend someone does not mean we should not take reasonable steps to protect ourselves.  Do we just let anyone in without even writing their names down?  Do we not even bother to issue green cards?  I would say a fingerprint is a much closer to these steps than beating them.  It is just a means to keep track of foreigners in our country.  It is not like we are forcing to have a rectal exam or anything.  And they can always go somewhere else.

Also, fingerprints would be helpful in a case where someone tried to enter using two different IDs.

Saudi Arabia probably fingerprints its own citizens.  We are not talking about that; this would apply to foreigners only.  Our government has an obligation to protect its citizns, which is much more important than being nice to foreigners.

A traffic violation was why McVeigh was stopped, not why he was arrested.  I have never been arrested on a traffic stop because, unlike McVeigh, I exhibited no other suspicous behavior.  If the officer notices something suspicous, he can pursue the matter further.  Our 4th Amendment does not protect against [i]all[/i] searches and siezures, only unreasonable ones.

Post from tatjana -

Hmmm, how many buildings in Lichtenstein, Austria, and Switzerlan have come crashing down on the locals' heads due to 'visitors'?

Let it happen just [u]once[/u], and see if there's any changes suggested in the visa routine in those countries.  

Yes, but when folks from Lichtenstein, Austria, and Switzerland start commandeering commercial airliners and crashing them into civilian buildings, expect this to change![:D]

Damn straight! At least that was the way it was in the good old United States up to 1966!

After 1966, we became 'The Great Society' and boy howdy, look at us now!

Eric The(I'mSoProudICould[puke]!)Hun[>]:)]

You know, I am not sure about that.  If he had no ID or fake ID the fingerprints would have been critical.  Just as they would be for budding terrorists who take the sensible precaution of getting fake ID.

Where in your reply to me do you actually answer my question???

Good for you. Neither do I.

But I have a CHOICE whether to use those banks just like foreigners have a CHOICE whether to enter the US and they have a CHOICE whether to stay in the US during a time of domestic war.

So how is all this freedom of CHOICE a "police state"??

BTW, since this is probably going to be starting soon, are you packing your bags?


...or was that just more irrational Alec Baldwinesque-hyperbole.

Do you mean all Arabs or just those here on Visas or illegally?

I don’t see the big deal about it, you are not American you need proper and correct identification.

Is like going in to a large corporation unless you have proper ID you cant get in, and if at any time in that building you cant provide the proper ID you are out of there.

I might be wrong but I was told that is not the Government’s job to protect you.
The purpose of government is to protect the individual rights of its citizens, (country, by providing an army) and to insure proper use of force.

And that you protect Yourself. You don’t have to like everyone, that comes your way.  And you go on about your business. And if they use force you have every right to use retaliatory force.

The initiation of force is never moral. Man's nature is such that he survives by reason. Survival by reason requires the ability to act on your reason. Force destroys that ability. When you use force against someone, you are destroying their ability to survive by destroying their ability to use reason, and their ability to survive will suffer to the extent that force is used.

The initiation of force is the act of one man initiating force against another, as opposed to retaliatory force. Force includes such acts as murder, theft, threats, and fraud. It is acting against another person without their consent.
If a man uses force against you, he is declaring that he does not want to survive by means of reason. He is telling you that he doesn't recognize your right to exist as an independent individual.

When you come up against a person/group who views force as the proper means of relating to people, you know that this is a person/group not worth dealing with. This is a person outside the realm of morality, and once outside, moral conventions and principles have no place. There is only one way to deal with such a person, and that is with retaliatory force to [bold]end their existence.[/bold]  



[bounce]

Hi all.

I'll weigh in in a place I seldom occupy:  the middle of the road.  I am uncomfortable here, so please pull or push me to one side.

I agree that pulling my 75 year old WASP uncle and his wife out of airport line for extensive scrutuny FOUR TIMES is idiotic and counterproductive.  It disgusts me that PC crap eviscerates our security.

I also agree that fingerprinting non citizens is minimally invasive.  I for one do not feel our Constitutional protections should extend to non US citizens.

HOWEVER, we use the slippery slope argument all the time on gun control issues.  Couric is always blathering the same "insightful" quetion every time she gets to dance in the blood of "gun victims":  "Why can't you agree to reasonable restrictions..."

Nobody bothers to tell her that that has been the battle cry before EVERY gun control measure Congress has enacted.

Then something else hapens, and we're back to them demanding even more "reasonable" restrictions.

If they implement this and there is another terrorist attack by foreign nationals, will they move to expand the database?

If a citizen blows something up, will they move to expand the database?

I guess my concern is, we all know that gov't is a perfect eating machine, growing ever-larger but NEVER smaller.

I realize this is not a case of The Macallen urging that we trade "freedom for security," and Tatjana's not saying "No security is worth my absolute freedom."

Maybe that's why the answer does not leap out at me.

I'm all ears.        

I see you feel very strongly about this issue. Most likely it will not be an issue for you... but if it was, would that be too great a price to pay to be here? I would have to agree with Mac that you are somewhat prone to hyperbole. Any visitors to the former Soviet Union in the 70s and 80s were assigned minders, only allowed to stay at goverment hotels, and their entire itinerary scrutinzed...

Seems like a bad idea to me.  I do not think the benefit to security would be great enough to outweigh the problems.  The US is a mix of different people.  We exist successfully because when it boils down to it all groups of people want similar things.  No matter who you are you probably want little else but freedom to good living, raise a family and live in a comfortable home.  Muslims have a bad rap.  Sure there are ignorant fundamentalists out there, but +99% of the muslims who live in this country are productive members of our society.  When we start alienating groups of people, it weakens us.  Osama is/was a very intellegent man and I'm sure this figured into his plan.  Think of the whole unite we stand, divide we fall clique...

Of course merely fingerprinting foreign nationals is not going to stop every wrong known to man.  Not single strategy will work.  But it will be helpful in some situations.  And the impact on the rights of citizens is zero.
And you know this how?  Don't you see how ridiculous this sounds?  You are saying that because we want to fingerprint foreign nationals, we are comparable to a society that killed and imprisoned dissidents, and which had no freedom of speech?  What relativistic nonsense!  I'd like to see you live in the Soviet Union in the 1970 for a few years, and then if you survived come here and say we have it bad.

Here is the reality:  our people must be safe.  This is going to present a burden.  The burden will either be on foreign nationals or on domestic citizens.  There will indeed be checkpoints and identity cards for everyone if we can not control our borders.  It only makes sense that the burden be put on foreign nationals, who are the source of the problem.

If they do not like it, they can go home.

So much for freedom and independence. [:D]

I agree that we shoudn't fingerprint selected (Arab) visa applicant. Instead we shoud require all visa applicans to provide fingerprints as part of their application.

I can see two beneficial uses for finger printing all visa applicants. Applicants could be screened for prior criminal arrests and against fingerprints of known terrorists prior to entry to the country.  They could also be used to confirm the identity of the applicants after arrival in the US.  

However, just collecting finger prints will not solve any problems.  Historically, the US hasn't done much to track foreigners on visa.   Unless they plan on changing this the use finger prints to confirm identity would be useless.  Also I don't think we have the fingerprints of known or suspect terrorist to compare with visa applicant so pre-screening of applicant would only be useful in identifying criminals from countries that allow us access to their databases of fingerprints.

I think they stay there because they are punished if they leave.  They do not have a real choice.  If Castro let them go, I am pretty sure that Island would be depopulated in short order.

Actually, social security numbers are legally required.

Both of these analogies are flawed.  In both cases people will suffer criminal penalties if they do not follow the government's chosen path.  There is no real choice.  People visiting the US do not have the same problem.  They can simply choose not to come here, and there is no penalty.

Other than being unable to enjoy our superior culture, as exemplified by McDonalds, Coca-Cola, and Beverly Hills 90210, of course.  [;)]

Excuse me, I happen to be a SHITHEAD MUSLIM"MAGGOTS" you are referring to. It scares me how this country is headed today, whats next, register all Muslims in America like Hitler did to the Jews? I proudly call myself a FUCKING LIBERAL not because I hate guns. I owned AR-15's and I have a EVIL SNIPER RIFLE and I am proud to own them. I call myself a FUCKING LIBERAL because I believe that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL as said in the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE and the HOLY QURAN!!!! So FLAME AWAY AT ME ALL YOU WANT I will even leave this country because I shudder to think what we will become. SHIT China is much more tolerant and less prejudiced than guys like YOU!!!

Thats already the case - I have a green card it last for about 10 years every time somthing chances on my green card - status wise not adrress - I get fingeprinted - that means - If I have to go to the INC office == I get almost certainly fingerprinted. - Not that I have problem with that - I am a guest in your country and not a citizen, and I am not intending to break any laws  

BTW: It was my wifes idea to move here.

There seem so tbe a problem within the conservative community. There's the authoritarian conservatives and then there are the classical liberal conservatives (libertarians).

I personally don't like authoritarians, the costs of fighting the Cold War and now the War on Terrorism is ultimately going to be our freedom. Sometimes I wonder what do I really owe my loyalty to, the government, the country, the constitution? The government is shaping up to be quite authoritarian, but I do like this country and the constitution.

for Tatjana:

If where you hail from (I assume it's Switzerland) is such a fantastic place, then why do you stay here in America? We certainly don't need you here nor do you need us in your neck of the woods. Make yourself and others happy and go back home and rant all your want from wherever your country is. I look at it this way. If you are an American citizen, you have rights others do not. With citizenship comes privileges that immigrants are not afforded. Like anywhere else, you have to "do your time" before you become a citizen. Unfortunately one does not have to possess a working knowledge of the english language or, for that matter, have a rudimentary knowledge of our history, government or purpose (yes, the rules are quite clear they must possess these basic skills but 7 our of 10 do not but still become citizens). My wife is an American of Japanese ancestry who went thru the process of naturalization in 1976 and couldn't tell you who Lincoln or Washington was nor was her english up to par but was granted citizenship anyway. I taught her after the fact and she is now a fully functional citizen of the United States with all the benefits that pertain to her being a citizen. Green card holders, tourists, whatever must be afforded certain human rights while in the United States but they are also obligated to comply with the laws of the land they are visiting or living in. They do not, kick them out! We don't need them, their money or patronage, period. You say you like shooting here in the states. GREAT! If I'm not mistaken, Switzerland has very liberal laws concerning gun ownership as well, so by going there, you would still be afforded the right to keep and bear arms, so why stay? Like my father, who, I might add, was born and raised in Switzerland, fought in WWII (U.S. Navy) and died in 1999 as a true died-in-the-wool patriotic American, would say "if you don't like it, leave and don't let the door hit you in your arse on the way out".
[moon]

The Declaration of Independence has nothing to do with it. The Constitution does.
[b]We the people of the United States...[/b]
The contract is between we the people of the US, (read citizens), and the govt. Contrary with what SCOTUS say's, the Constitution is binding only on the relationship between the individual states, and citizens, and the Fed. govt.

Excuse me if I am wrong, rahimiv
But doesn’t your HOLY QURAN also states that, “whoever doesn’t fallow the QURAN teachings, is better of dead”.  
That sounds like Hitler to me “Whoever is a Jew is better of dead”

All we are aking for is simple finger prints for people that for "now" are not Citizens

I suppose I lost my objectivity on this whole subject since I have had to 'give up' my fingerprints to become an FFL, and give them up again when I obtained my CHL (CCW) in Texas.

So I'm not the least bit concerned that non-citizens are being required to be fingerprinted just to visit or stay in this country!

Maybe they should be criticizing their own countrymen for being such assinine visitors as to blow up a couple of buildings on Sept 11th, or maybe because they overstayed their visas, or maybe because they didn't attend school after coming here on a student visa!

Whatever the reason, they shouldn't be mad at US!

BTW, American servicemen are fingerprinted upon their entry into the service!

What are they? Second-class citizens? Less than non-citizen visitors?

Eric The(YouTellMe!)Hun[>]:)]

No. It's called "analogy".

Very common instrument of logical debate.

You're not too bright today are you.

Yeah, you COULD argue Cubans are free to leave, but you'd have to explain why so many are arrested by the Cuban Gov't for even trying to leave while very few people are arrested by the US Gov't for trying to leave the US.


Very free and very secure since I CAN own private property and rest assured that the Title to that property is legitimately vested to ME (when I pay off the mortgage) and not to The_Macallan who lives in Boston or The_Macallan who lives in Tampa or The_Macallan who lives...

BTW, I believe the SosoSecurity # is voluntary and is not an infringement on any rights of mine.


WTF?!? [%|]

And you say [b]I'M[/b] using confusion?!?

Okay... you have FINALLY begun to address my original question - and it only took half-dozen posts!

You claim being fingerprinted is an "additional burden".

There are burdens and then there are unreasonable burdens. You seem to lack the ability to distinguish between them.

You object to a more stringent means of identifying NON-CITIZENS, yet you gladly bend over and relinquish your freedom to Airport Security to rifle through your luggage in Frankfurt, pat you down at Heathrow, or pawing through your unmentionables at Brandenberg.

Face it, you just have an irrational phobia about being fingerprinted as if keeping your fingerprints unknown will be the ONLY thing that will protect you from the Stormtroopers.

The Patriot Bill?!?

WTF?!? Who said anything about the Patriot Bill?!?

This is thread is about FINGERPRINTING CERTAIN NON-CITIZENS!!

Talk about your straw man arguments!!

Are you at all capable of keeping a single train of thought for more than three minutes without drifting into illogical associations??

[b]YOU[/b] are the one who said you'd leave the country because of this fingerprint proposal and said THAT would make this a "police state".

I questioned THAT point.

Since when is it a flaw of logic to STAY ON TOPIC?!?

Obviously rational discourse and the ability to answer simple, direct questions about your statements is beyond your grasp. [whacko]

I have to agree with Tatjana on this one. We are turning to a police state, slowly but surely.

Just to take a poll, how many of you here who support fingerprinting is over the age of 25? It's my experience that older people tend to buy authoritarian arguments more easily.

You're never going to be able to have perfect security. Properly trained and equiped agents will always be able to infiltrate a free society. If they want to steal information, then they will steal information. If they want to blow up buildings, then they will blow up buildings. If they want to release biological or chemical agents, then they will do that. The fact that they are willing to die in the course of accomplishing their mission makes it taht much harder to stop them. The only absolute model for security is if we live in a collectivized society like the Borg in Star Trek. We'd have to install neural interfaces in everyone's brains at birth and entry into the United States and mandate that they be hooked up into a central network so that all their thoughts and feelings can be monitored at all times. If 1984 is what you want, then you can get the hell out of my country. You don't deserve to be American.

There will never be perfect security, our enemies are determined, they will succeed some of the time regardless of our efforts. Such is the predicament we are in now. Do you really want to trade your freedoms for security? (Yes, YOUR freedoms, because as Tatjana said, in order for us to detect their movements, we'd have to monitor everyone at every point of risk. This is the filter model. The tracking model would require us to tag everyone deemed suspicious with a radio transmitter like those on probation and alert the authorities when the suspect is violating his parameters). Both methods smack of police state. The filter model would infringe upon everyone's rights. The tracking model is more select, but what kind of a country would we be if we tagged every suspicious looking foreigner with a radio collar?

They're people, not animals. And they shouldn't be treated like criminals unless they have been proven guilty in a court of law. That is the fundamental basis for our justice system, or have you people been brainwashed by the feds too?

I think someone should make a parody of this. Ashcroft personally putting radio collars on every incoming foreigner. That's how you get the rest of the world to hate us even more, by treating their people like animals and criminals. Remember, do to others as you would have done to yourself.

If I were Bush I'd pull our troops out of Afghanistan, the Middle East, the Far East, Europe and anywhere else they maybe deployed for no good reason. The Cold War is over, our troops should come home. Apparently our presence in Saudi Arabia is offending their people, maybe we should consider why we're there and maybe eliminate the problem at the source, as in, don't piss off other people for no good reason.

[i]{Boomphklomph-ooughf}[/i] - sound of me fall out of chair in suprise[;)]

Grown-ups call it "wisdom".

You started this passage sounding silly but now you're beginning to make sense.[:D]


You're assuming that the fingerprints are to be used DAILY.

When are fingerprints of school teachers that are now mandatory being used against them? When they register to vote? When they go shopping?

When are fingerprints of US miltary personnel being used against them? When they buy a house? When they attend College?

How are the rights of our own citizens who are school teachers and soldiers being infringed? And why should those rights be less sacred than the rights of NON-CITIZENS from Pakistan!

I don't think so.

"MoslemMaggots" are radical Muslims that advocate homicide-bombing of Israeli toddlers, cut the heads off American journalists for thrills, slit the throats of stewardesses (after tying them up first), drive jet airliners into skyscrapers filled with innocent civilians, treat women as chattle and plot to overthrow Western Civilization.

Oh yeah, they never bathe either.

Does that sound like you?

If so, I'd like to meet you in person.


So why don't all men (even those who follow your Quran) ACT equal.

[rolleyes]