i vote 2x4 with locker. for something your not going to 'wheel. the only time you actually 'need' 4x4 on road is in winter, and i've never been anywhere, (where there was pavement underneath) that i would need 4x4 to get through.

it's cheaper on insurance, better mileage, less breakage, no worry about wife breaking t-case (comment directed at non-'wheeling wives), lighter frontend.

don't tell me that i need 4x4 for offroading, i know that, i just mean on the street. i say that 95% of suv's don't need 4x4. get a full locker and some aggresive tires and your set.

You don't even need the 4x4 for winter.

I have a 2 door Blazer in 2x4. I use it to haul computer equipment around, nothing more than a nice looking pickup. I don't offroad, nor do I want to.

For winter I just toss some sandbags in the back of the Blazer, and it works fine. Don't drive like an idiot and you won't need 4 wheel drive.

Av.

Actually, a locked two-by, can often outdo a 4x4 open at both ends...FWIW

Nick

Think "posi", but much, MUCH tighter. Unless one wheel is traveling faster than other (as in turning), booth sides are "locked together=zero slippage...no "single tire fryer" syndrome.

Nick

The extra ground clearance a 4X4 offers comes in handy around my place during the winter months when drifting snow can be a real pain in the ass.

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid21/p30cd423f91ae5933d3f684356544e017/fdb237e1.jpg[/img]

I can crawl under it without a problem.

locker--- a locking differential

a normal diff splits power to both wheels when they have equal traction. when the one wheel loses traction on gets airborne the diff will send all the power to that wheel. a diff will send all the power to which ever wheel is easier to turn.

if you slide one rear wheel in a ditch and the other rear has solid traction a normal 'open' diff would send all the power to the whee that is easier to turn (the ditch wheel) and you'd just sit there spinning your tire.

if your diff was 'locked' (with a locking diff--or a 'locker' as it is commonly called) the engine would split the power equally to both wheels. result- you get ont he gas and the tire with traction will turn (in addition to the ditch tire turning) and you would be able to get out.

that's why i would prefer a locker to limited slip or posi.

An automatic locker is a pretty dumb thing to have in a 2x4 on the road, and just as bad in the woods.

On the road, if you hit an icy spot and it switches its tourque direction, you will go into a spin guaranteed. Without the front to at least help govern this, you're really in sorry soup.  In the woods, you wind up spinning a lot because yourfront wheels aren't helping.  You tend to destroy land and turn environmental groups against us, just like anti-gun groups are against up partially because of blasters that shoot refrigerators.

Get a 4x4, put two ARB air-lockers in it, and be prepared for most anything you should be doing.  You'll have great on-road capabilities, and the same goes for off-road.  You'll also disturb the ground much less.

About 18 months ago my Dad got a new Ford F150 and opted for a 2WD with the larger tire and wheel combo.  He had to put a new set of tires on it (the stock ones were terrible), but has no problem getting around in winter with it.  He went through the same pros/cons that OffRoad did, and came to the same conclusion.  He also lives in WI, so he's no stranger to winter driving.  I think it's a great truck and would love to have it.  [EDITED to add that he does not use it offroad.]

But, that being said, I'm also glad that my wife has 4WD in her Jeep Grand Cherokee.  She sometimes travels in bad weather and I think it provides her with an extra measure of insurance.  At the very least, it allows her to get out of the way of dumb drivers quicker than a 2WD.  [;)]  [EDITED to add that we don't use this offroad -- mainly it's for carrying capacity such as bikes, dive gear, etc. and future pulling of "toy trailer."]

I guess I agree with OffRoad, but also qualify it to who the driver will be.  I think I'm a pretty good driver (show me a red blooded American male who doesn't [:D] ), and will probably go with a sports type car (Mustang SVT Cobra or new Nissan 300) for my next car.  It's a few years off, but I figure that I'll be able to deal with a RWD sports car with a set of Blizzaks or similar winter tire.  I currently have a Honda Accord EX that sucked in winter with stock tires.  It now wears Blizzaks in winter and Pilots in summer.

I don't need 4WD, but feel better knowing my wife has it.

How does that saying go?  "There's no stuck like 4WD stuck."  [smoke]

EDIT noted in text.

I agree, 2wd with a locker is plenty.  My truck is 4wd and I rarely use it.  Here in No. Va. we have lost all of our little fourwheeling spots, and im not serious about it so im not going to drive three hours to go 'wheeling.  I would like to have a pre-runner Ranger but I don't fit in a range too well, not enough leg room for me. If I got a truck now, I would most likely get a 4x2 F-150, with the 5.4L put in some 3.73's, locker, small lift with some good leaf springs in the back for good articulation to keep as much of the two tires on the ground as possible. I really have no need for 4x4, but when I have needed it, Im glad I have it.  

on the side: A little T-case story.
My friend works at a dodge dealer.  I went up to his bay one day and he had HALF of a t-case sitting on the ground with the drive chain hanging out.  Some husband put their Durango in 4wd and the wife was driving it around and never took it out, never noticed the light on the dash, or the fact that she could not turn for s#it in parking lots.  Drove around with it in 4wd for two months!  Some people should be driving a Ugo.

thank you frontsight, you completly missed what i was saying.
you say auto locker. i'm talkign manual locker. detroit, arb, spool, ox locker.  something like that. i know about the ice situation. if both tires are already turning anyway, then it wouldn't be a problem.

i JUST SAID that 4x4 is what i want offroad anyway. i know that. why do you think i call myself offroad, i know about 'wheeling.

furthermore about spining tires, there are enough dumb, dumbs that go off road with no lift, locker, and granny tires that end up spinning like jerks anyway.

we're in the process of fighting a battle with land keepers anyway.

dual arb's kick ass. period. but on road they are more than you need. i'm talking about goof off soccer mom's and how the suv companied trick them into thinking they need all this 4x4 electorninc system bullsh*t. they don't. 2x4 with an arb is what i would want.

corey--you seem like a good guy, but i just can't agree with the extra measure of insurance. 2x4 with a full locker is all i would want.

am-o tramp. you drive a dodge, those actually have some space under them. i was under my bosses 99 chev 4x4 silverado the other day and i barely fit under it. if it's not lifted you gotta jack it up to work on it.

You guys have me REAL interested.  Where exactly would I find a "locker" for a 98 F150,  and would it help me on those %$^#@ gravel boat ramps? I don't off road,  but getting a 3600 lb boat up what is effectively a bed of slime covered marbles is a major pain.

dude glad to hear it. you can get a locker for your truck for sure.
-find out what kind of rear axle you have.
-order a locker from a 4x4 parts store
-install in truck

it will very much help in your situation. your still going to have to be holdin her pretty close to the floor and both tires might spin but you'll get up way better. tell marina to get better ramp. our marina bolted heavy-duty wire mesh to the wooden ramp (think woods gets slippery after a few years, ho ho ho, it sure f*cking does) and the tires grip the mesh and go on up.

OffRoad:

I've never driving a 2WD setup the way you describe.  It sounds like my Dad's F150 (which is stock) does not have the locker discussed in this thread.  So, I don't know how it performs.

My main concern for my wife is have the extra bit of pucker off the line or pull up an icy hill so that she doesn't get bogged down.  IMHO, if you can keep yourself out of others way, you'll have less problems.  Kind of a "not rely on the other guy not to hit you" mentality, but that's the kind of driving that will keep you from an wreck in a snowed in downtown urban environment.  On my way into work there are a few stop and go hills that get very icy.  I want my wife to be able to climb those hills with little worry or need for driving skill.

I also think that her 4WD system helps keep the vehicle from oversteering.  Granted, most of the oversteer in winter is power (i.e., driver) induced, but I think it's the added bit of safety.  My wife learned really quick that 4WD is not invincible, just as ABS isn't.  I feel that her 4WD does give a bit more traction in the corners.

Again, she doesn't need 4WD (heck, I'm not sure I'm a fan of ABS for me, but for her I like it) but I'm glad that she has it.  My Dad went with 2WD and it was the right decision for him.  I could live with a Mustang and Blizzaks.

But, if I had a choice of her driving a 2WD and taking an extensive winter driving class versus owning a 4WD, I'd rather see her with the 2WD and driving skills.  Not to say that she's a terrible driver (I'd say she's probably a better driver than most), but there just isn't the attention to these details that most of us have.  I've never seen her pick up a Car & Driver and read tech information on vehicle handling dynamics, etc.  Whereas I can set my front drive Honda up in a nice little oversteer four wheel drift when appropriate (actually, mostly when inappropriate [:D] ).

I initially thought my Dad was crazy to get an F150 in 2WD.  Darn it if he didn't prove me wrong!!

Maybe it comes down to this:  Is a 1911 an appropriate gun for all pistol shooters?  I don't think anyone would say it is.  There are those who are better off with a S&W type safety and DA/SA.  I like my 1911.  My wife likes her S&W 3913.

Very interesting discussion.  I'd like to be able to drive a 2WD locker setup like you describe just to see how it handles.

I agree with the above. Lockers are not a plus on the pavement. A 4x4 with a fulltime option can be an advantage.

Well I will tell you this after running lockers onroad/offroad for the last 3 years. if you are never going offroad DON'T put one in!
You won't have to worry about your wife breaking anything as she will most likly refuse to use the truck once you install a locker.
the problems are they are noisy, (Clicking And occasional Loud snaps.) and they will affect the handling onroad too. you need to stay on the gas around corners or it will buck, and in snow, Ice they will not corner well at all.
Offroad they are the cats ass, but for onroad use go for a posi or a part time locker.
No offense Offroad but you should know this allready.

The Detroit is an auto locker. The ARB is manual, but it is expensive, and has reliability problems. I don't know what an ox locker is . . .

I think it is more like 99% of suvs don't really need or even use 4wd. The manufacterer's marketing departments sure have the sheeple convinced that you MUST have 4wd. We should hire these firms to make pro gun commercials. I love it when people tell me they need 4wd in the city. It snows here like 3 times a year - for a total of 15 inches. I always say what did people do 30 years ago when everyone had rear wheel drive cars ? Did everyone just stay home when it snowed ? Shit I drove my Chevelle thru plenty of snow with no problems. I even had it 5 miles in the woods on a dirt road one time while it was snowing.

alright fellas, your right about the locker on road, it does pop and bang and stuff. ti's more than you need on pavement the only advantage i can see on road is the ditch sitch. but if you drive right you wouldn't slide into the ditch in the first place, or more specififcally i wouldn't slide in the ditch. hell my best friend's dad claimed that the best winter car he ever had was an old camaro. his hitting drifts 3 feet high doing 70 kph down the road.

more later. gotta go.

The OX Locker is a cable activated manual locker, its got the benefits of the ARB, but without the compressor and air lines and gas rings to worry about...

In a perfect world a 2WD truck would be a sufficient substitute for a 4WD, as would a .22lr be a sufficient substitute for an AR-15.

However, in the off chance that you NEED either one, the 2WD/.22lr will not suffice.


A 4WD does not have to be used as an off-road playtoy to be practical.


I have used my 4X4 dozens of times in everyday situations:

-recent flooding in my area, 4X4 allowed me to ford water that I could not have in my 2WD.

-numerous highway accidents, I have went off the highway to turn around or cut through an impassible median to avoid waiting in hours of gridlock.

-last year a large oak tree fell across the roadway, the only way back to my house, and I used my Jeep and tow strap to yank it over enough for me and everyone else to pass.(I tried in 2WD, but road was too slick from rain, so I had to switch to 4WD)

-Snow, a 2WD works great in th snow until some dipshit in a car gets stuck on a hill and you have to go around him in the ditch.


Bottom line IMO, is 80-90% of the time a 2WD with locker will go any where a 4WD will, but it is that 10-20% that I have a 4X4 for.

If you think that a Detroit, Lock-Right, or even a Gov-lock is a manual locker you need to open a dictionary.  The automatic lockers are on all the time.  When there are differentiating forces on the locker, it will unlock and allow one side to go faster than the ring gear.  This is in stark contrast to an open differential that allows one axle to go slower than the ring gear.  This is why auto lockers are dangerous on the road.  The side that is not moving with the ring gear must accelerate to overcome the differential in torque, then when the ring gear catches up, it bangs into place.  My 350 V-8 fuel injected FJ40 Land Cruiser could do a 180 based only on torque unloading on the rear diff and a wet street.  Given enough power, all auto locked vehicles could do the same.  I switched to ARBs and the problems of course disappeared.  ARBs are not unreliable.  Many people don't understand how to set them up and have either had the gear backlash set wrong or they have mistreated their air hoses.  Some of the older ARBs has fewer bolts and they did break, but since '95 all ARB's have come with 8 (?) (don't quite remember) bolts joining the right and left sides.  Their failures are very rare.  As long as the air system is in good condition, meaning no leals, oil and water sererators, and no water getting into the diff, the system is really great.

Modern soccer moms and the like definitely benefit from all-wheel drive.  The amount of concentration and knowledge that is required to safely drive an auto-lockered vehicle is beyond what many are capable of.  Emergency driving with that type of modification is not instinctive unless you drive it every day.  

2WD is a joke in heavy snow.  Here in Colorado, my 4WD club has assisted the Forrestry Service for the last 7 years with their annual Christmas Tree harvest.  We chain up and help the 2WD owning citizens get through the snowy trails.  I have personaly broken trail many times when the snow was over 4 feet deep.  In addition many woods trails are one way so I would wind up pulling folks up steep hills backwards in deep snow.  A 2WD would be useless here.

'81 FJ40, TBI 350, SM420 tranny, 3 spd t-case, ARB's f&r, spring-over axle lift with 2" custom lift springs, drop shackles of my own design, 35 BFG MT's, Rancho 9000's, Warn 9000xdi winch, full roll cage, 5 point harness, on-board air, and heavy duty V-bar chains for deep snow.

Those are all automatic lockers, with the exception of the ARB. You have no control over whether they lock or unlock.

[b]edited to add[/b]: I hadn't heard of the Ox Locker till now, so I didn't know it was manually operated. I suppose if I read 4x4 mags I'd have heard about it, but I'm sick of those candy-ass $50K poser-mobiles!



If both wheels are turning and one wheel winds up on a patch with slightly more or less traction, i.e. ice to snow or vice versa, the other wheel will spin the machine.





I kinda agree, although I have to say that none of those are really necessary unless you're running in deep mud. A stock 4x4, with nothing but some better tires (like BFG All-Terrains) will go 90% of the places that it's possible to get a vehicle into and back out of. Of course, the 10% of places that you need lift, lockers, and big tires to get into are the most fun places to go! There are sure enough dumbasses who don't belong in a vehicle regardless of the terrain it's on LOL




A guy at work has an '02 2500HD and he need to put it up on ramps to change the oil. My '85 K10 has similarly-sized tires and I can almost crawl under it on my hands and knees.


I've found that most of the time, I don't need 4WD in the winter. But it sure does make driving in snow a lot easier - starting on a hill is actually easy, and with the front wheels helping to pull you through turns, you're more in control. Plus, I doubt many 2WD could back out of the driveway through 2 feet of snow, and 3 feet or more in the windrow. When that rear bumper hits the windrow, those tires are off the ground and you need something to keep pushing you - such as the front wheels of a 4X4.

Hey Offroad.This question is for you.I know what a Locker is but what is a limited-slip differential? I'm thinking about ordering a new Jeep Wrangler and that is one of the options.

You know, the more I think about this the more I see a legitimate need for 4WD on the street in winter.

Take two identical Jeep Grand Cherokees (just for example).  Make one a standard automatic 4WD and the other a locked 2WD.  Put them both on a frozen lake with a light snow cover.  Run a variety of performance tests: 0-60, slalom, emergency manuevers, G's, etc.  My money is on the 4WD besting the performance of the 2WD every time.



This sums it up nicely.  The only thing I'd do is add "soccer dads" into that mix.  'Cause I'm of the opinion that 90% of the people on the road don't have a clue as to how their vehicle will react in any given emergency situation.  I generally have a pretty low opinion of the driving ability of other drivers.

EDITED for typos and clarity.

manual-auto lockers--- my bad, i was typing fast and didn't think. i save thinking for driving.

limited slip- get it, i can't see a down-side. feel free to correct me on this. when the diff senses on tire spinning and the other tire just sitting there in will engage the the sitting tire so it will turn at the same speed as the other tire.

frontsight. -again missing my point

here it is: 2x4 sucks off road. you want 4x4. locked. in winter chains are THE stuff. i'm jealous of your v bars. could you post a pic so i can see what they look like. my trail rig has a spol in the rear with a torque biasing limited slip in the front. i'd like a detroit but that's a ways in the future. i know 2x4 sucks off road.

as for all this starting on hills stuff. whne i'm starting on a hill i'm just trying no to roll into the guy behind me, as i engage the clutch. if the tires spin so what? if it ain't icy then they'll grip, if it is then they're going to spin anyway. i just hope to go up rather than down. winter driving is fun. [:)]

fellas i don't know what your 'invincible' OPEN DIFF 4x4 's are doing but adding the z71 option does make your truck a tank.

schv, i don't know what ditches your going through, our's are filled with 5+ feet of snow from the plow.

the ride height of a STOCK 4x4 vs. 2x4 is like what?, 2 inches. you must not have been fording very much water. i'll just take the ATV.

those mags feature way to many 'poseur mobiles' for my liking. fool proof test? ask the guy how much his paint was? if more than $200, he's a poseur. spend more on stereo than tires? poseur!

I vote for a 4x4 or two with a locker..
I have an 83 CJ-7 with a lockright, and a
97 F-150 4x4 with an Auburn L.S. unit in the rear of it.

The Jeep was ok until the lockright, then it got awesome, and it turned the F-150 from a toad into a pretty decent truck.

The F-150 was pretty easy to install,took about 1.5 hours, but the AMC 20 axle in the Jeep was a pain.

In my wife's 4WD you just go uphill.  Doesn't matter if it's ice, snow or a mucky combination.

And I agree that winter driving is fun.

Add about 20 cars behind and alongside of you and it all of a sudden becomes a much more serious task.

Hey, my next car will be a "1911."  My wife's next car will still be a "S&W."

When you want to take care of your wife and kid in a snowed in and hilly city, do you give them a 2WD o 4WD?

Very much fun here, gentlemen, but I'm out for the night and will check in tomorrow a.m. (of course I've said that twice tonight already -- with the BRC coming up this board is rockin'!).

None of you guys addressed GVW. I know the topic is 2X4w/lockers v. 4X4wo/lockers, but thought I'd throw my $0.02 and this in.

I hear a lot about F-150's. MHO is that all 1/2 tonners should be for on road only. Matter of fact, I don't see much sense in a 1/2 tonner at all: they have the carrying capacity of a car. I wouldn't want a truck with less than 3/4T, even for on road. When you go into 4X4, you should definitely have a 3/4T minimum, actually 1T would be best. The 1T'er will have bigger axel diameters and heaver springs, etc. This, as you know, will help when bouncing around out there.

I have a full size, 2X4 (actually 1X4) P/U, 3/4T, without any poistraction rear end. I think you called it an "open" differential. This is a pantywaste truck in the snow and rain. In the winter I put 300 lbs. of either cinder block or sand across the back end. This works fine but that wheel still spins on occasion.

I have on several occasions talked to some 4X4 shops about changing it. All of them advised me against a Detroit Locker. They cited all kinds of problems and noise. An air locker was acceptable, so I could shut it on and off, but the price kept me from getting it.

Now I hear of an OX locker with cable actuation instead of the air compressor. That sounds like it's a little cheaper. I'll have to look into this. I've always felt that a manual locker would really work for me.

Offroad- I'll agree with your first statement.. If a paved, maintained road suddenly becomes bad enough to NEED 4WD, one should question the necessity of that trip..

Been snowed in for a week? Okay, Food run..

A night of freezing rain, and your videos are overdue? Bullshit..Stay home.

Your residence a mile off the beaten track? You may need 4WD..

Your driveway is 300 feet long, and gravel?
You DON'T need 4WD.

SUV's are currently a fad, and hopefully it will die out.. (Although they are fun to see in a real offroad environment.. Pieces everywhere..)


Meplat-

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but in Arizona we have this thing called sand. You have to have 4WD minimum to drive through it. 2wd with a locker will work as long as you can go 45mph. Granted my wife drives the 4WD Trooper around town and I have a 2WD Toyota, but if I'm heading to the desert I take a 4WD anyday over a 2WD locked. As far as driving on pavement anything around here will get you where you want to go.

Kingme,I have a bunch of good reason's for owning a 1/2 ton truck, mainly I dont have to pee blood after being in one of those 3/4 ton monsters!

Having that front drive axle in most IFS type trucks is almost like having a 2wd until you put it into 4x4 mode.

I vote for QuadraDrive. It kicks ass.