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4/25/2017 7:42:44 PM
Posted: 5/24/2002 3:02:19 PM EDT
I have one of those dealers who insist that firearms shipped to him must come from a FFL licensed dealer. My understanding has always been that the law only requires that a firearm must be shipped TO a FFL holder, and can come from the owner regardless of his or her status. (The only exceptions being shipment to a gunsmith or manufacturer). Anyway, I have a FAL sitting in his store that I cannot pick up because the owner I bought it from shipped it directly to my dealer instead of via another FFL holder. Has this ever happened to anyone here? It's a royal pain in the ass, to say the least.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 3:32:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 3:43:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: You have the law right, but an FFL has the right to have his/her own policies with requirements above those required by law. It sucks, but you either need to follow his rules or find another FFL. -Troy
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But if he already paid for the rifle (which I assume he has, from the wording in his post), does the FFL have any legal right to enforce his policy? Wouldn't that be considered theft of property, provided that all applicable laws regarding the sale and transfer of the rifle had been followed to this point?
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 4:20:18 PM EDT
Your right marvl. Been there.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 6:47:48 PM EDT
Just inform him that he is wrong and if he does not turn your rifle over to your in proper FFL record keeping fasion you intend to file a stolen firearm report with the local police and then intend to contact the local office of the ATF to suggest they come and do a legal compliance inspection upon his place of business. Your other option would be to call in the A-Team
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 7:23:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2002 7:28:54 PM EDT by GlockBoy]
Tell that guy to give your damn rifle asap. Or call the cops. This is the law. http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm (B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service? [Back] A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Here is the key point: a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 7:27:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2002 7:45:07 PM EDT by GlockBoy]
Originally Posted By Troy: You have the law right, but an FFL has the right to have his/her own policies with requirements above those required by law. It sucks, but you either need to follow his rules or find another FFL. -Troy
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What if his policy is a blowjob, before you get the rifle. You gonna do that Troy. I love it when I hear some company say "It's our policy" What does that mean? I guess if you just wanna make up some bullshit rule and make everybody follow it, then it's a policy. Dear IRS, I don't feel like paying taxes this year. It's my new policy. I'll let you know next year.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 7:28:23 PM EDT
I have the same problem in Phoenix. They said it is too much of a hassle to receive "private party". They need to have the shipper fill out a "pawn ticket" and they need to verify it is not stolen. He said it is the law in Maricopa county.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 7:38:58 PM EDT
Went through the same with FFL last fall with my RRA lower(group purchase). I now use a different FFL. I understand their concerns doing this, though. However, my guy, after agreeing to do this, refused to give me the lower after he received it and threatened to turn it in to the ATF. So I called ATF instead and they asked what his problem was. He really got wierd about it all even after I pulled up the ATF regs for him and showed him the specific rule which applied. There were alot of phone calls between ATF and his shop that day. In the end I didn't leave until I got my lower. Took about two and a half hours in his shop though. He can send it back to the seller and that guy can ship it through a FFL or ship to another who is ok with doing this. If he refuses to do anything call ATF. They'll take care of it. In any event its going to be a real pain in the ass. good luck.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 7:39:32 PM EDT
The dealer is an asshole. Find anotherone! If you paid for it, insist he either xfer it to you or PAY SHIPPING to return it. Then find a decent dealer. Suggestion to call ATF is best one. I suggest you consider that even AFTER you get the rifle to sorta get even.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 7:40:46 PM EDT
You sure he is not just holding it the required ten days before he can turn it out? Bob
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 9:59:21 PM EDT
The guy can run his business however he wants to. Why didn't you ask what his policy is on gun transfers before you had someone send that gun to him. He doesn't have to do a damn thing. Sure, it's legal for a dealer to do a transfer like that, but the dealer must prove who they received it from. That's why a lot of dealers do transfers only FFL to FFL. If you try to say it's legal for such a transfer to occur and try to make him transfer the gun to you, he may just call the ATF and report an unknown gun being delivered to him or he could take it to the police and say that he received the gun from someone he doesn't know and believes it may be stolen. The point is you should have asked first (you might have, you didn't say), and you need to ask him very kindly to transfer the gun. You're at a disadvantage here. I won't deny that some dealers are assholes!
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 11:11:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 5:44:58 AM EDT
Yeah, I screwed up and caused myself some grief. The flip side of the coin, though, is that I have had prospective sellers argue with me about the need to ship their weapon from an FFL, citing the law in excruiating detail. In a few cases I felt as if I was convincing them to go through with the sale, just because of the PITA of finding an FFL. If you defend the practice because the receiving FFL has no way of knowing if the gun is stolen, I would point out to you that the sending FFL would have the same problem. Ultimately, the problem is the law and the idiot agency tasked with enforcing it. The thumb sucking bureaucrats that do audits and the like probably know less about the law than your average homeless person.
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 6:24:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 6:42:55 AM EDT
This FFl has had to log that gun in already or he is in violation for not logging in the gun,so he can now log out the rifle to you or another FFL. He can't send the gun back to the none FFL who you bought it from ,that would be a violation in it self,so if you turn up the heat and ask him if the gun is logged into his A&D book he just might get the message. If he didn't log that gun in then you have him by the short hairs.
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 6:56:55 AM EDT
Speaking from the experience of [b]drjarhead[/b] and me, the BATF's position on this bit of stupidity is the dealer must either complete the transfer of the firearm or return it to the sender, ASAP. An FFL holder is under no obligation to sell or transfer anything to anyone, but he cannot arbitrarily hold or confiscate anything without just recompense. If the FFL won't transfer the FAL to you or return it to the sender, get the BATF on his ass. He'll have an attitude adjustment when it's all said and done.
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 7:01:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 7:38:56 AM EDT
Ah yes, Bad Ass Barrachus and his Bullet Proof Jewelry. That's got to be 50 lbs around his neck, don't you think? [;)]
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 7:56:13 AM EDT
As a former FFL dealer, I would only accept shipments from non-licensees if photocopy of resident drivers license were enclosed. The ATF bound book requires FFL number or address info for all firearm acquisitions. As a dealer, you are also required to ensure positive identification in any transfer activity. Ask your dealer if he will honor your transfer if sender provides said type of information. For liability today, it makes sense to know who and where a firearm is coming from. A mailing label or return address is not a means of positive identification. If your dealer will not honor this request, I would contact ATF. Hope all works out for you. Bravo5-2
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 8:28:31 AM EDT
After you are done kicking his ass, turining him in to the ATF and sicking a rapid pack of lawyers on him you may try this... Go to his shop and explain the situation. Possibly point out it was not your intention to violate his policies and you were un aware of them at the time. Ask him how this situation could best be resolved.
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 3:45:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2002 3:51:51 PM EDT by jtw2]
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: After you are done kicking his ass, turining him in to the ATF and sicking a rapid pack of lawyers on him you may try this... Go to his shop and explain the situation. Possibly point out it was not your intention to violate his policies and you were un aware of them at the time. Ask him how this situation could best be resolved.
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You mean be reasonable? What kind of fun is that? [:D] Edited cuz uf spellinz
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 4:06:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2002 4:11:51 PM EDT by Kevin]
Originally Posted By Bravo5-2: As a former FFL dealer, I would only accept shipments from non-licensees if photocopy of resident drivers license were enclosed. The ATF bound book requires FFL number or address info for all firearm acquisitions. As a dealer, you are also required to ensure positive identification in any transfer activity. Ask your dealer if he will honor your transfer if sender provides said type of information. For liability today, it makes sense to know who and where a firearm is coming from. A mailing label or return address is not a means of positive identification. If your dealer will not honor this request, I would contact ATF.
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Exactly what my FFL holder told me about needing proof of where it came from. He said when the ATF goes over the books life is much simpler when the transaction is from a FFL. He doesn't want to face the ATF hassle or risk the liabilty if something went wrong. Because fewer & fewer dealers are doing transfers affordably (in my area at least) I choose to make life as simple as possible for him. A good dealer is an asset! Something else that could be done is that the seller could locate an FFL and each FFL verify the firearm info over the phone. After that the seller's FFL could simply mail out his FFL.
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 8:02:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: After you are done kicking his ass, turining him in to the ATF and sicking a rapid pack of lawyers on him you may try this... Go to his shop and explain the situation. Possibly point out it was not your intention to violate his policies and you were un aware of them at the time. Ask him how this situation could best be resolved.
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[:D]
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 9:20:59 PM EDT
Hey jtw2, nice sig pic [:)]
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 10:02:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2002 10:06:21 PM EDT by crashburnrepeat]
Marvl, I had this EXACT same experience. IN a nutshell this is the sequence of events; 1)Arranged to have ar15 shipped to a*sho-uh, ffl. 2)Ar15 lower arives at FFL from private shipper. 3)FFl realizes this didn't come from another ffl. Freaks out. 4)Refuses to release the gun to me OR send it back to original shipper cause he's not an FFL. 5)Won't release AR to me DESPITE both a phone call AND a fax from Boise ATF arbitrator. 6)I arrange an FFL in Sellers State (40 bucks)and FFL in my State (15 bucks) 7)A**hole(ffl) ships gun back to FFL in Sellers State. 8)A**hole FFL in sellers state charges 40 bucks for the log in and 40 MORE bucks for log out to my NEW FFL. ^@#%#@#%@#$%@# At this point im seriously considering joining Ms. Brady and HCI. 9)I FINALLY get my Christmas AR15 in about March. Due to being so burned up about this I spoke with two lawyers, 5 cops, a judge, two FBI agents and multiple ATF agents. In the future my course of actions would be; 1)rational explanation like one poster suggested. Most times it won't work cause you're dealing with an idiot. 2)Call the cops, file a stolen goods report. Call the ATF and file a formal complaint about his business practices. Most Gun Shop owners get rightfully upset about the thought of the ATF even thinking about them. 3)Not leaving until you have a police stolen goods report and a criminal case. If you've got the dough, call a lawyer but I'd be happy with the Police Report and a nice ATF complaint. Good luck, you are in for a long road. You will ask future FFL contacts MANY MANY questions in the future. I always do now.... Crash.
Link Posted: 5/28/2002 9:59:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat: 1)rational explanation like one poster suggested. Most times it won't work cause you're dealing with an idiot.
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My experience, exactly.
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