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Posted: 5/22/2002 3:56:43 AM EDT
[url=http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=7&u=/nm/20020522/ts_nm/southasia_dc_68]Indian PM Tells Troops Time for 'Decisive Fight'[/url] [i]Wed May 22, 5:44 AM ET By Myra Macdonald[/i] NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee (news - web sites) on Wednesday told Indian soldiers confronting Pakistani forces across their border in disputed Kashmir (news - web sites) that the time had come for a decisive fight. Although he did not spell out who the fight would be against, he said his visit to frontline troops at a time of high tension between the nuclear-armed foes should be seen as a signal. "Whether our neighbor understands this signal or not, whether the world takes account of it or not, history will be witness to this. We shall write a new chapter of victory," he told soldiers in Kupwara, northern Kashmir. "Let's work for victory. Be prepared for sacrifices. But our aim should be victory. Because it's now time for a decisive fight." The rival neighbors have massed up to a million troops, backed by fighter jets, missiles and tanks, on their border since India blamed Pakistan-based Kashmiri militants for a suicide raid on India's national parliament last December. The crisis has hit financial markets in both countries with India's key 30-issue Bombay share index -- which fell to its lowest close this year on Tuesday on war fears -- extending falls on Wednesday by shedding about one percent. Pakistan stocks slid more than four percent. MUSHARRAF TO MEET CABINET AND SECURITY CHIEFS As Vajpayee continued his tour of Kashmir, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf was due to meet his cabinet and top security officials in Islamabad. The two sides have exchanged heavy mortar and machinegun fire across their border since Friday, forcing hundreds of villagers to move to safety. Officials have reported 10 deaths in the past two days, including a girl who Pakistani police said was killed by Indian gunners on Wednesday. Each side blames the other for starting the firing. Tension rose sharply last week when Muslim rebels battling Indian rule in Kashmir raided an army camp, killing more than 30 people, many of them soldiers' wives and children. Tuesday's killing of moderate separatist leader Abdul Gani Lone in Srinagar, summer capital of the state, was expected to overshadow Vajpayee's three-day visit to the region -- the cause of two of the three wars India and Pakistan have fought since partition and independence in 1947.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 3:57:14 AM EDT
INTERNATIONAL CONCERN MOUNTS International concern over the threat of war has also been mounting and European Union's External Affairs Commissioner, Chris Patten, said on Wednesday he would push the foes to work together to fight terrorism and defuse their stand-off. British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, due to visit the region next week, also urged the international community to act to defuse the crisis. "The possibility of war between India and Pakistan is real and very disturbing," Straw said in London. "This is a crisis the world cannot ignore." Patten told a news conference in Islamabad that the neighbors should work together to stop terrorism. "One of the things to which I will be drawing attention to repeatedly is the Security Council Resolution 1373 which Pakistan has signed and every European Union country has signed," he said. Resolution 1373, adopted last year after the September 11 attacks on the United States, calls on countries to work together to stamp out terrorist acts. "I will be drawing attention to a relationship between that Security Council resolution and the current situation." Meanwhile hundreds of mourners shouting "Freedom for Kashmir" gathered at the home where slain politician Lone's body was on display. The national government had regarded Lone as someone with whom it might be able to work to end the bloody Muslim separatist revolt that has raged in the Himalayan state for a dozen years. Unidentified gunmen shot Lone dead at a public meeting, but some Indian leaders have blamed Pakistan for the politician's death while Pakistan accused India's "occupying forces" in Kashmir. Indian soldiers flooded Srinagar's streets which were deserted as a result of a general strike called by the main separatist alliance to protest against Vajpayee's visit. Since October 1947, when the then Hindu ruler of Kashmir decided to join mainly Hindu India rather than Islamic Pakistan, the region has fueled rivalry between the two countries. India, which holds 45 percent of Kashmir, considers it an integral part of its territory. Pakistan, which controls a third, demands implementation of a 1948 U.N. Security Council resolution calling for a plebiscite to determine the wishes of the Kashmiri people. China holds the remainder of Kashmir.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 4:28:23 AM EDT
Who gives a shit? Let em fight! The anger between these two countries has been heating up for ages and it's time to let them duke it out and let the winner rejoice and the loser tuck his tail between his legs. Is it really any of our business to step in and tell another country what to do anyway? Remember how pissed off we all got when other countries were complaining about our "war on terrorism" or even about the detainees in Cuba? That is none of thier business just like this is none of ours. I just hope like hell that it's all live on CNN.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 4:37:40 AM EDT
Who gives a shit???!! Well lets see??? Perhaps anyone who BREATHES AIR!!! You do know that fallout can travel on the wind right??
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 5:04:17 AM EDT
The rival neighbors have massed up to a million troops, backed by fighter jets, missiles and tanks, on their border since India blamed Pakistan-based Kashmiri militants for a suicide raid on India's national parliament last December.
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A recipe for too much fun![img]http://rockbottomdlux.freewebspace.com/smilies/Clapping.gif[/img] Who knows? The stuff might actually work! [IMG]http://www.colute.net/cwm/contrib/ut1/redeemerwhore.gif[/IMG] [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/biggrin2.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 5:12:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2002 5:12:45 AM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 5:27:33 AM EDT
I am cheering for India in this one. Pakistan has been run into the ground by religious nuts over the last 50 years. Pakistan has been arming and training terrorists for many years and sending them into India. India tried hard a few years ago to negotiate a peace with them, even opened up their borders for more trade and travel, but look what it got them. Back when Pakistan was controlled by the British it was the richest part of India with the best farmland and infrastructure. Now it is poorer than formerly poor areas of India, and their infrastructure is falling apart. War won't come until fall. It is too hot now everywhere except the mountains, and the monsoon will come in July and August and everything will flood. Expect Indian armored brigades to be approaching Islamabad and Karachi by Haloween. GunLvr
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 5:33:44 AM EDT
What ILIKELEGS said!
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 5:38:15 AM EDT
India will be doing the WORLD a favor. Lebrew
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 8:36:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2002 8:40:14 AM EDT by Bostonterrier97]
I think that Pakistan has a better Air Force, But India has more Nuclear Weapons and a larger ground force. I don't know if India can meet a ground forces logistical needs for a sustained campaign. As far as Service Rifles go: Both sides have a mixed bag using: AK's, AR's, L1A1 (FAL's), with some police and militia units still using Lee Enfield SMLE's. Pakistan also has some HK G3 service rifles Pakistan uses MG3 machine guns. Pakistan like India also has a small Navy. which includes some old French Daphne Class Subs. Pakistan has the following Indian Cities targeted for its Nuclear Missles: City__________Population City__________Population Urban Area Dehli__________7,206,704__________8,419,084 Bombay_________9,925,891_________12,596,243 Calcutta_______4,399,819_________11,021,915 Madras_________3,841,396__________5,421,985 Bangalore______3,302,296__________4,130,288 Hyderabad______3,145,939__________4,253,759 Ahmadabad______2,954,526__________3,312,216 Kanpur_________1,879,420__________2,029,889 Nagpur_________1,624,752__________1,664,006 Lucknow________1,619,115__________1,669,204 Pune___________1,566,651__________2,493,987 Reference:[url=http://www.pakistanidefence.com/]Pakistani Defence[/url] [url=http://www.indianarmedforces.com/arm/indbases.htm]Indian Air Bases[/url] [url=http://www.indianarmedforces.com/arm/pakbases.htm]Pakistani Air Bases[/url]
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 9:01:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: I say we raid Pakistan's and steel their nuke's and help India. We all have a common enemy and that's the Muslims. Looks like the whole world in divers places has to worry about the peaceful Muslims.
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[s]GO INDIA[/s], er, I mean thats just terrible "think of the children"! [devil]
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 9:02:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: I think that Pakistan has a better Air Force, But India has more Nuclear Weapons and a larger ground force. I don't know if India can meet a ground forces logistical needs for a sustained campaign. As far as Service Rifles go: Both sides have a mixed bag using: AK's, AR's, L1A1 (FAL's), with some police and militia units still using Lee Enfield SMLE's. Pakistan also has some HK G3 service rifles Pakistan uses MG3 machine guns. Pakistan like India also has a small Navy. which includes some old French Daphne Class Subs. Pakistan has the following Indian Cities targeted for its Nuclear Missles: City__________Population City__________Population Urban Area Dehli__________7,206,704__________8,419,084 Bombay_________9,925,891_________12,596,243 Calcutta_______4,399,819_________11,021,915 Madras_________3,841,396__________5,421,985 Bangalore______3,302,296__________4,130,288 Hyderabad______3,145,939__________4,253,759 Ahmadabad______2,954,526__________3,312,216 Kanpur_________1,879,420__________2,029,889 Nagpur_________1,624,752__________1,664,006 Lucknow________1,619,115__________1,669,204 Pune___________1,566,651__________2,493,987 Reference:[url=http://www.pakistanidefence.com/]Pakistani Defence[/url] [url=http://www.indianarmedforces.com/arm/indbases.htm]Indian Air Bases[/url] [url=http://www.indianarmedforces.com/arm/pakbases.htm]Pakistani Air Bases[/url]
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You forgot something. Israel is allied with India and has sent their air force to India when there has been other crisis.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 9:08:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2002 9:10:16 AM EDT by raven]
What? Israel isn't India's ally. Where did you get that idea? Israel's closest ally other than the US was Apartheid South Africa. Israel's got its own problems anyway.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 9:13:26 AM EDT
Lets see an Israeli/Indian alliance! Wow, wouldn't that be some shit? Personally, I think the world would not shed a single tear if the Paks were nuked into a glowing wasteland. Shit, they're half way there!
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 9:33:52 AM EDT
[b]Missile-carrying Indian warships sail near Pakistan, air force on alert[/b] [url]http://sg.news.yahoo.com/020522/1/2pydb.html[/url]
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 9:38:34 AM EDT
Well the good news is that every terrorist worth their salt will be in Kashmir fighting the Indian infidels so it will take some pressure off of us. Hopefully India can kill bunches of them.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 9:43:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2002 9:53:30 AM EDT by Benjamin0001]
If this thing goes nuclear China is going to be in Deep Trouble. Ben I don't know how, and from where China gets its water, but a fairly high percentage of its Fresh Water is in the south near the boarder with Nepal and India.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 9:47:16 AM EDT
It seems like every time the world population creeps up above what can be easily maintained by the technology of the time, something happens to reduce it. Either famine, plague or war. Gee, we just might hit the trifecta!
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 10:27:45 AM EDT
India is no better than Pakistan, they may not be muslim, but there are socialists and communists there in a big way. India has over 1 billion people living there, possibly a larger population than China. An escalation to nuclear arms by either side could bring about the end of the world. I wonder how many nukes China has? Will Russia's even come out of their silos after so many years of neglect? Will ours? Something to consider before some of you continue to beat the war drum.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 10:47:20 AM EDT
WWIII and TEOTWAWKI is just around the corner! WOO HOO!
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 10:55:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2002 10:58:40 AM EDT by LotBoy]
Dying times is here! [img]http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/1984/Bjdog2.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 10:57:50 AM EDT
When we talk about India nuking Pakistan and Vice-versa, let us not forget that we have several thousand American troops right next to Pakistan in Afghanistan. And some in Pakistan as well. I really don't want any nukes falling on our soldiers, or near them for that matter. Also, even in lowly shitpools of the world like India and Pakistan, I still don't believe there is such a thing as a limited nuclear war. I think once the thing goes bang, a lot more go bang. Great escalation is quite possible. Also, although their arsenals are relatively small compared to those of the US and Russia, if they let go with their wad, there is still one hell of a lot of radiation which, via the jet stream will be here before too long. Not a good situation folks. Mike
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 11:02:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stormbringer: Who gives a shit???!! Well lets see??? Perhaps anyone who BREATHES AIR!!! You do know that fallout can travel on the wind right??
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You do know that India and Pakistan are on the other side of the world, right? [;)] If the United States could survive above ground nuclear tests in the western states, we shouldn't suffer too much from a few dozen nukes being used in southern Asia.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 11:08:03 AM EDT
OK, I'll say it..... Leeets get ready to Rummmblllllle!
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 11:28:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2002 11:30:48 AM EDT by cnatra]
OOhhh Goody! I think I'll grab some popcorn & beer while I get comfy on the sofa to watch the show! [devil]
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 11:50:00 AM EDT
I wouldn't don the NBC masks and start popping potassium iodate just yet. These people may be crazy but they aren't dumb. Even these ass clowns realize that nuclear war will assure mutual destruction between sides. That's why they have been using terrorism and limited scale fighting....just as the US and USSR did during the Cold War. Now there is the terrorist element that would love to see it come to a nuke contest, in fact they may be trying to get such an event started. But hell, I'm not going to worry about it. If it happens it happens. Maybe that's why the Brits are telling their people to get the hell outta Dodge! But if this keeps heating up I expect to see some toasted Islamic folks in that region! At least the terrorist's haven would be wiped out....Pakistan.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 12:15:59 PM EDT
Hmmmm, two third world shitholes are gonna' destroy each other.............and the down side is ?????? [frag] and the mods of death will soon appear to seek vengeance upon poor Charging_Handle for uttering the words....."ass clown" [:O]
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 12:25:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stormbringer: You do know that fallout can travel on the wind right??
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If it travels East, China gets the brunt of it... ooops! Darn. If it travels West, Iran/Iraq get the brunt of it... ooops again! Double-darn. [;)]
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 12:27:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: Hmmmm, two third world shitholes are gonna' destroy each other.............and the down side is ?????? [frag]
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You're right, I wasn't looking at the upside to this. Once Bangalore is nuked, maybe I'll be able to find a job in the U.S. without having to compete against some dollar-and-a-quarter-an-hour Indian dude.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 12:28:21 PM EDT
I understand these sentiments quit well. Ask me this Nine months ago and I would have had a team to choose. Now I just Choose America and whatever happens as long as its good for America I don't care. Ben
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 12:42:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Stormbringer: You do know that fallout can travel on the wind right??
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If it travels East, China gets the brunt of it... ooops! Darn. If it travels West, Iran/Iraq get the brunt of it... ooops again! Double-darn. [;)]
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And what happens if it gets sucked into the upper reachs and settles down ......oh I don't know...IN YOUR YARD!!
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 1:03:41 PM EDT
We're more or less on the jetstream from that area, so we could pick up some fallout. Possibly a hundred or so weapons could be used. Figure on a couple days for the fallout to get here. Some isotopes would still be dangerous. It could drive up certain types of cancers, such as thyroid cancers from radioactive iodine isotopes. Stock up on potasium iodide tablets, which saturate your thyroid with non-radioactive iodide and prevent the radioactive iodide from being absorbed.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 3:00:36 PM EDT
exactly!! [url]http://www.oism.org/nwss/s73p929.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 4:39:14 PM EDT
C'mon guys, war is an ugly business, and nuclear war is much worse. At the end of the day, all the people at risk are still human beings. I can't understand why people can celebrate the prospect of mass death. War is sometimes necessary (such as now), but celebrating war and human suffering is not.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 4:59:35 PM EDT
Assuming they do mix it up without going nuts and using nukes, who is allied with who? Does India have any strategic alliances with anyone? Does Pakistan? Does the US owe any loyalty to Pakistan after the limited cooperation they showed us during our continuing operation in Afghanistan? I'm just trying to ascertain who else might get involved should fighting break out.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 5:09:50 PM EDT
I have to agree with Dakotakid..Our troops will be in deep DODO it Nukes fall. Which I doubt, like Charging-Handle said they are to smart to destroy each other. Then again some wild fundamentalist decides he wants to meet his maker you never know.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 5:28:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: WWIII and TEOTWAWKI is just around the corner! WOO HOO!
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WOO HOO... You know, I'm just so struck with the image of you sitting on (what's left of) your roof with an orange afro, beer in hand, yelling WOO HOO! Made me laugh, I'll give you that.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 5:33:39 PM EDT
One million plus well armed troops duking it out. That's like us and the former USSR going at it without the ICBMs. (just tactical nukes [@:D]) That seems like something serious to take note of. As Yoda would say, 'That's gonna put one damn serious wrinkle in the force.'
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 6:17:01 PM EDT
One thing for certain. A bunch of AR15 goobs posting on an internet forum wont make a difference either way. All the crying about the poor Pakis or poor Indians that will suffer is in vain. Our opinions are only important to us. I doubt that the key players in the Kashmir standoff will be coming to this site to see what we want them to do about it. If it is north of our Canadian border or south of our Mexican border, let 'em burn.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 7:04:19 PM EDT
While I certainly have no love for India, any nation that goes to war with moslems is good in my book. We need to support ANYBODY that goes after the idiots! We backed the wrong side in Serbia to our everlasting shame. In as much as Bin Leadenis hiding in Pakistan, I hope India wipes them out to the last person.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 7:44:06 PM EDT
Celebrating war is wrong. Any war. War is hell even if you're not fighting it. So to you guys who want to see this conflict happen, I say why? How do we know that this "war" doesn't escalate and grow? I doubt nuclear weapons will be used except as a last resort and the fighting will probably be restricted to Kashmir only (no drive on Islamabad). I hear Kofi Annan and the UN are working D-OT to avert this. Pakistan and India don't care what the rest of the world thinks. They just want control over Kashmir. CRC
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 11:31:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven: What? Israel isn't India's ally. Where did you get that idea? Israel's closest ally other than the US was Apartheid South Africa.
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I tried searching for the news articles but couldn't find them. So i'll kinda retract the statement. What I was referring to was during Pakistan and India's nuclear testing. India briefly went on high alert. At this time, Israel lent some of its air firce to India (as odd as this may seem). They were landing in India. Obviously, nothing happened. If this were to unfold and it were become a "jihad" against India (a nation of Hindus, Muslems, Christains, etc..) it could escalate drawing other nations into this.
Israel's got its own problems anyway.
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True.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 1:32:42 AM EDT
As much as India likes to play the "we're a stable democracy!" card, please keep in mind that they were a Soviet Union client state until the USSR collapsed. They have only begun playing buddy to us since they figured out they could make more money by taking over the software industry than by begging the ex-USSR for subsidies. Pakistan, on the other hand, was our friend for decades until they had to build nuclear weapons to hold off the Indian threat. Remember who tested first just to show that they could -- India.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 4:09:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: Who gives a shit? Let em fight!
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We have troops in Pakistan. This could be a problem...
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 4:20:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2002 4:52:51 AM EDT by shooter69]
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: These people may be crazy but they aren't dumb. Even these ass clowns realize that nuclear war will assure mutual destruction between sides.
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Read this article and think again: [url]timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=10387267[/url] Go down to the last half to see the kind of people we are dealing with.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 4:21:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Pangea: If it is north of our Canadian border or south of our Mexican border, let 'em burn.
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Don't worry Pan......we still love you!!! [sex]
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 4:35:16 AM EDT
Possibly a hundred or so weapons could be used.
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No, I think that's an over-estimate. India and Pakistan probably don't have a hundred functional warheads between them, and the first strike would destroy or disable at least some of the other side's nukes. Plus, both sides would want to have a few nukes in reserve. IMHO, ten to fifty is a more realistic estimate. Regarding the fallout danger, here's a quote from the [url]www.oism.org/nwss/s73p929.htm[/url] link:
The worst danger to Americans from trans- Pacific fallout from a large nuclear war would be the whole-body gamma radiation doses that millions would receive from fallout particles deposited on the ground, on streets, on and in buildings. Protective countermeasures would include both sheltering some pregnant women and small children living in "hot spot" areas of abnormally high rain-out of fallout, and evacuating others. Unless such unavoidably time- consuming and expensive countermeasures were taken, several thousand additional Americans might die from cancer in the following 20 or 30 years. The largest total doses would be received by people who would live normal unsheltered lives for the first month or so after fallout deposition, while the dose rates would be highest. Several thousand additional cancer deaths would be extremely difficult to detect, if caused by whole-body gamma radiation from fallout deposited nationwide, with these scattered deaths occurring over the 20 or 30 years following a Trans-Pacific war fallout disaster. For during these same decades about 15 million Americans normally would die from cancers indistinguishable from those caused by wholebody radiation from war fallout deposited on an America at peace.
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It would be bad, but the panic would cause more damage than the fallout.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:36:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stormbringer:
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Stormbringer: You do know that fallout can travel on the wind right??
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If it travels East, China gets the brunt of it... ooops! Darn. If it travels West, Iran/Iraq get the brunt of it... ooops again! Double-darn. [;)]
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And what happens if it gets sucked into the upper reachs and settles down ......oh I don't know...IN YOUR YARD!!
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Maybe THAT will kill the gophers in my yard! [;)]
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 2:43:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shooter69: Read this article and think again: [url]timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=10387267[/url] Go down to the last half to see the kind of people we are dealing with.
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Man, that is a scary article...
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 3:52:55 PM EDT
You're not kidding, Kevin. I used to think (like charging_handle) that common sense would automatically prevail. Now I know that there are often fanatically suicidal people in high office. These endless wars with the muslims have to be resolved eventually. I am not putting all of the blame on them, but they've fought India and Israel how many times now? Lost every one without suffering the wrath of a vengeful foe upon their defeats (as many nations have in history), only to take advantage of that fair-mindedness and prepare for the next war. Now they have nuclear weapons...
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 4:02:33 PM EDT
While that article did seem a bit disturbing, there is one thing worth pointing out.....this guy isn't in charge! Musharraf is! These reporters always track down the most radical of radicals to make their story seem that much more significant. And remember, don't believe every word uttered from someone's mouth. While these people are extreme, what he was saying could be no more than the age old bullying and saber rattling. Of course they want to scare India...because they know they can't win if the fight is on. Back a few months ago it appeared as if India and Pakistan were headed for a nuke exchange to hear everyone talking, but what happened? Nothing. And even if they unleash everything in their inventory, there isn't a thing we can do to stop it anyway. So why worry?
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