I'm not sure I followed that...

Christopher, as long as the crowd was unarmed, I don't think anyone would fire into it. Something one might wish to remember when considering this specific scenario (MGM) is that the media, which might indeed not be on our side, would be covering this like the Second Coming. Kent State and the Bonus March weren't covered at all. Waco, well, I can't say much about it, since I only know what I saw. But look at the legacy of hassles that the various LE agencies bought themselves that day --- people still discuss it as if uncertain of the truth. Can the FBI, DOJ, LE, or military afford that kind of negative publicity? Hell, no.

Something interesting to consider is the vast amount of security at the California DOJ hearings on SB23 a couple years ago. MAJOR security, like airport security, and that was for simple hearings on defining terms downtown in a small room. I don't think many would be stupid enough to try and sneak a firearm into the crowd at the MGM.

I'm sorry, did the person who started this thead mention anything about citizens who posses firearms?
No, I don't think so.

Can you deny that in the last century, (and even the one before that) orders were not given for soldiers to fire on citizens and that these orders were carried out?
Again, I don't think so.

This topic is soooo old.

It's been beaten to death.

Also, in many historical events where military or LE fired into crowds, they were considered innocent because they were unarmed. If the crowds were armed as the Branch Davidians had been, there would be much less sympathy.

If someone snuck a firearm into the MGM and used it, the marchers would be painted as extremists and terrorists -- modern buzzwords useful to the media.

Yes, the military would open fire on citizens. The only trick is how their masters would manipulate them and convince them to do it. really not all that difficult or inconceivable, though.

You sound like someone who has either never been in the modern military, or had a bad experience therewith. I wouldn't fire on civilians unless my life were in danger from them.

What do you mean by sneak a firearm into the million gun march? The idea is to have a million armed people there. Real guns, live ammo. I've got the CLP ready to shine up my AR, but the march ain't gunna happen.

Wish I could remember more of my history...  but, let's not forget those striking coal miners who were mowed down via machine gun fire from U.S. troops.  Was in the 1930s.  

Oooohhhh, this changes everything. Then I'm not going. Just asking to get killed. And I feel sorry for the poor military and LE that get called to cover this event, as well.

Let's see, other FACTS that the gov't has lied about over the years:

- we didn't have advance warning about Pearl Harbor (we did)

- the Spanish blew up the Maine (they didn't)

- we didn't have troops in Laos & Cambodia (we did)

- the Vietmanese attacked our ship in the Gulf of Tonkin (US setup?)

- we claimed to be helping them with medicine in the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment (but we purposely infected them)

- our gov't researcher claim certain animals to be endangered (they have lied and falsified results to steal land from citizens)

You really expect me to believe that Delta Force (who the gov't denies exists) wasn't at Waco and didn't participate??

I don't believe virtually anything the gov't tells me any longer - and I've got historical facts to back me up.

I think 10 years ago still qualifies as "modern. And I never had what I would define as or consider to be a bad experience.




BINGO! Maybe now you'll be able to understand what I am saying.

According to your own words, you WILL fire on civilians if you feel your life is in danger from them. So to get you to do so, the only trick for your superiors is to create and manipulate an event that will cause you and your fellow soldiers to fear for your lives. This is certainly not an implausible possibility.

Let's say a truck bomb crashes into your barracks and explodes, killing half of your buddies. The "evidence" all points to a "radical" group of Americans. Martial law is established and the military is turned loose to take care of these domestic terrorists. Well, how do you believe that you and your fellow soldiers will react?  

Yes you will. The scenario will go something like this: an army squad or LEOs tries to arrest a group of people for "illegally" bearing arms. These are law-abiding Americans excercising their constitutional right to bear arms who have done nothing wrong, so they fight back against government troops attempting to disarm them.

The information your CO gives you is the following: a group of domestic terrorists attacked and killed a squad of US Army soldiers. They were your fellow soldiers, and some of them were your friends. Your orders will be to take them out, an order you will willingly follow with extreme prejudice.

I hate to tell you SARguy and others of the same ilk, but the photos of the M1 at Waco are not photoshopped..they are stills from the videos taken. I was around M1s plenty in Germany, surrounded actually, by an armoured unit on the kaserne. That was an M1. Then there's the issue of the Army heli shooting down into the building prior to the main raid. Then the issue of use of excessive force by the ATF. Under Texas law, anyone has the right to use equal force in their defense if law enforcement uses excessive force. You don't attack men, women and children to get a $200 tax stamp which was alledged to not have been paid. You don't use tanks, machine guns, snipers, helis and all that on civilians. To top that off, the Davidians had an FFL registered to them. It was their business, they bought and sold guns like many others do to  make a living. They used the means at hand to defend themselves against an out of control force bent on scoring zee big one to get more funding. The ATF lied to the army by saying a drug operation was in place to get equipment, men, and training. Delta force had men on site, it's a matter of public record, from records obtained under the freedome of information act. Take a look at [url]http://www.hardylaw.net/waco.html[/url] in general. For specifics of the tank issue, check out [url]http://www.hardylaw.net/HILEVEL/SDM1S.GIF[/url]. If you have trouble reading it, save to desktop and open in larger in a graphics program. It states clearly 2 M1s to be sent to the FBI in Waco, minus Army markings. Drivers to accompany but not be involved. Tanks against little kids a dream? Take your TA-50 and go bivouac yourself.

Unless there is another coal strike massacre I am unaware of, I think you are refering to the Ludlow Massacre, which was in 1914. Men, women, and children were disarmed and then fired upon by the Colorado National Guard under the command of Adjutant General John Chase. A moment of Colorado history I am not proud of.

-legrue

Where's CAPITALIST when we need him?

Let me clear it up, 1st, Im not Christopher, next, If you are in the crowd, unarmed and I am given the order to shoot, Bye Bye, your dead, If I am armed watching from the sidelines and they did shoot in the crowd, soldiers would start going Bye Bye. Call me cold or what.Blame Uncle Sam.
GG

I can't remember, were the protesters at Kent State armed or not?  

Of course some will follow any order.
Most will stay than would leave their unit.
The ones that stay will be plenty for the task at hand. They will fire at anyone if they are order to do so.
They will be only doing their job. They will only be following orders.
They will be carry out the tasks they have been trained to do in this day of the peace keeping soldiers.

I am a supported of our armforces. Make no mistake about that. They will do what they have been trained to do. Start at the top and work down if you need to trim a tree  


Remember the civil war.

The average grunt was told what he was fighting for.
Brother against Brother.
                [x]

In a heartbeat. In all the time I was an infantryman in the Army I met exactly zero guys who did not want to kill. For some the thought of that exercise may have been a little less than concrete, but the desire was definately there. Couple that with the Us vs. Them attitude that civilians foster in areas adjacent to most military bases and you begin to erode any unwillingness to harm locals. Add to that the degree of operant conditioning most military guys get, especially infantry in the  Marines and Army, along with the willingness to wreak havoc that most 17-22 year old males deep down want to do anyway, and you have a large group that will open fire on US citizens if told to do so.  

How many times and ways can this damn questioned be asked?  How many times can everyone prove that they don't know the answer?

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Fair enough. At that point I'd be interested in revenge, but I wouldn't blindly go out destroying. I'd want to know the truth, even as I pursued vengeance or justice. Make sense?

That about sums it up for me as well.

Gun Guru,
I was quoting you so you'd explain your comment, which you did. Thanks. The "Christopher" was directed at his further explanation of the scenario being the MGM and not something else more generalized.

Cool!
GG