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Posted: 5/19/2002 10:35:09 PM EDT
I buy American every chance I get, but I'm finding a scary trend developing. You cant buy anything reasonably price that isnt made overseas. What if we could only buy American products? could we afford to buy the same items were accustom to now. I've been scope shopping and everyone recommends Leupold optics, while I have to agree the price reflect you get what you pay for. There are a flood of overseas made Tascos, Simmons, etc scopes out there, does the material cost and quaility really different or is it the obvious labor cost that makes the big difference in cost. Would our economy improve if we only had the option to buy American products, or do you think people simply could'nt afford to buy, thus effecting the economy for the worst. Sorry for the worthless rant, Ive always wonder what if, and I enjoy your objective and informed responses.
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 10:41:03 PM EDT
I would be broke. Get real people, it has been a Global economy for a very long time!! Hell, even stuff made here isn't always supplied by here!! I think the better idea would be where does the money end up?? Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 10:42:23 PM EDT
This is my take on that. Like it or not this is now a global economy and very few products that we think of as "American" really are. I know of no vehicle out there today that is 100% American. My Chevy Suburban was assembled in Canada with parts from the US, Mexico, China, Tiawan and God only knows where else. But putting that aside if a pipe wrench says "made in the USA" what does that mean? Did the steal to make it come from the US? What about the ore to make the steel? It's virtually impossible to find anything that is all from here. No phones, no electronics of any sort could be aquired with an "only USA" buying aproach. It just isn't possible anymore.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 3:46:04 AM EDT
Yes, it's all true. Most things are made in China. Yes, the Global Economy. But, it takes away our independence. We already lack production facilities for many things, the factories having gone overseas. We are rapidly losing the skill base, people who could produce the necessary goods if factories were started. Eventually, we will be under the control of overseas nations whose interests may or may not be parallel to ours. Other countries could blackmail us by withholding seemingly ordinary goods as the Arabs now can with oil. At some point, I'm sure military items could be affected, as well. Sure, DOD looks at the takeover of American defense production. But, what about some of the unnoticed suppliers of small parts? BTW, I forgot what year, had to be 10+ years ago, when there was the explosion in the USS Iowa's forward turret? The turret was destroyed, but the real kicker was the small, almost ignored comment in the report, that the turret could not be repaired or replaced because "there was no yard left in the US which could do the work."
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 4:20:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2002 4:21:37 AM EDT by Benjamin0001]
"there was no yard left in the US which could do the work."
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Its always those little remarks that hold so much truth. As far as your shopping woes are concerned. Well there is no way to fix it now, the problem was created over 30 years ago.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 5:10:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 5:15:43 AM EDT
""What if we could only buy American products?"" we wud have 100% employment !!!!!!!![:D]
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 5:36:24 AM EDT
1) That would eliminate competition in the market. Manufacturers can then sell inferior products at inflated prices. 2) Raw materials still have to be imported into this country. So most likely you will never have true American products. 3) For those that buy Lexus, Mercedes Benz, and BMW, there might not be good alternative to purchase. Therefore, this will prevent people from spending money. And if people are not spending money, economy will suffer in the long run.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 5:46:16 AM EDT
sadly, very sadly, I think it would destroy our economy. Our level of income and quality of life demand wages that would dictate very high product prices. This would lead to inflation that would make the great depression look like a mid afternoon market fluctuation. When you have to pay workers ten dollars an hour instead of ten dollars a month you can obviously make a much less expensive product. I have thought about this from time to time though, and I encourage economists to tell me all of the reasons why it won't work, but here goes. What if we were to tariff all imports at a rate that would require the price to be equivalent to American alternatives and use these funds in place of any form of income taxation on Americans? This would give americans between about 10 and 60 percent more money to spend, depending on income, and should open up price equalized competition for American manufacturers. We'll pay more for stuff, but we'll have more to spend on stuff, so I think it could pretty well equal out and provide more American jobs and profits as well. One argument that will be made is that other countries will drastically raise tariffs on our goods making us amlost unable to compete in foreign markets, but I would argue that we export so little compared to what we import that it wouldn't matter, especially when you take into account the increase in American manufacturing. Anyone? Anyone? Mike
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 6:40:57 AM EDT
Didn't the Germans go through this post WWII? I know their exports were hurt by a strong Deutsche Mark but domestically, weren't their products also expensive due to high labor costs? They got through it somehow, no?
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 6:59:32 AM EDT
Dakota- Give the average American 10 to 60 percent more income, and I predict that taxes on, or prices of domestic products would magically raise to consume that surplus.. One thing that angers me are some of the shoddy products I find marketed with the "proudly made in the U.S.A" stickers on em.. Only to learn that they might be at most "assembled" here.. Nothing encourages me more to buy a competing foreign made product more than the sight of a "American" made product wrapping itself in the Flag, and preaching patriotisim as a main selling point.. Any marketing types listening- Here's a hint. Sell it based on it's own merits.. Meplat-
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 8:13:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2002 8:15:03 AM EDT by warlord]
The "Made in the USA" label serves little or no meaning to me now. I would buy it if I could find them sometimes, the USA ones are generally better than the Red Chinese import, BUT since American companies are getting rid of their help at a drop of the hat, I personally no longer feel that way.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 8:23:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 8:42:25 AM EDT
What if we were to tariff all imports at a rate that would require the price to be equivalent to American alternatives and use these funds in place of any form of income taxation on Americans?
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One problem is that there would be huge transitional costs as such a system came into effect. E.g., no one (as far as I know) makes television sets in the United States anymore. So how would the tariff on TVs be set? Would we just ban all importation of TVs until someone started making them in the US again? And what company would risk starting to produce TVs here if the protectionist tariffs could be repealed at any time?
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 8:49:32 AM EDT
Interesting points, I knew I could count on an objective analysis. Ok answer my scope question, would you ONLY use good o'l American scope on your fine AR, or have you found a quality import scope worthy to mount on your weapon. I know you get what you pay for, but do I have to pay bank to buy nice optics?
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 9:25:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sniped: I've been scope shopping and everyone recommends Leupold optics, while I have to agree the price reflect you get what you pay for. There are a flood of overseas made Tascos, Simmons, etc scopes out there, does the material cost and quaility really different or is it the obvious labor cost that makes the big difference in cost.
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I spoke with a Leupold rep at a Trexpo Convention in Burbank, Calif. a few years back, and they do the final assembly in Oregon, but the lens actual lens grinding is done abroad. He says that there is no one in the U.S. available to do that part. I didn't want to press him further becaues the person was getting a little annoyed.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 9:28:51 AM EDT
I don't know whether this applies to the market for scopes, but certainly for the vast majority of products out there, "Made in the USA" is meaningless. Completely meaningless. Most products are "made" in many different countries. There are a set of arcane rules about which country's name gets stamped on the package, but that name doesn't mean a whole lot. Most of my company's products get stamped "Taiwan" or "Philippines", but a lot of the work on them gets done in the U.S. Even trying to decide in which country their "production" occurs is a difficult and probably meaningless process. For example, take a given product from my company. The hardware design is done in Texas, the software design is done in India. The first manufacturing step might take place in Florida using raw material from Singapore and machines from Germany. The next manufacturing step takes place in Taiwan using Japanese machines. This is the step where it acquires its official "Made in Taiwan" label. The next manufacturing step takes place back in Texas using machines made in California. Then our product goes into a Chinese DVD player or a Japanese Sony Playstation 2. Who cares what country name goes on the outside? It's meaningless. It's truly a global economy.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 10:44:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sweep: We would all have empty houses and be walking to work. I understand the philosophy of "Buy American" but why should I be forced to buy more expensive products or products of lesser quality? The answer is not to force a "Buy American" economy, but for Americans to produce better and less expensive products. However, with unions driving up the price of labor and the tax laws I don't see that happening any time soon.
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Oh shit. This is going to become a union rant for our Rust-Belt members who think that unions are the all-knowing god of their jobs.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 10:54:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed:
What if we were to tariff all imports at a rate that would require the price to be equivalent to American alternatives and use these funds in place of any form of income taxation on Americans?
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One problem is that there would be huge transitional costs as such a system came into effect. E.g., no one (as far as I know) makes television sets in the United States anymore. So how would the tariff on TVs be set? Would we just ban all importation of TVs until someone started making them in the US again? And what company would risk starting to produce TVs here if the protectionist tariffs could be repealed at any time?
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You make some good points, and there would indeed be transitional costs...It would be a heck of a transition. The answer is in my mind is to do it gradually over a few years to avoid economic shock and allow time for business to transition. Secondly I think American businessmen would jump at the chance to produce and sell such items, they just can't right now because they can't compete. Also, I believe profit is enough incentive for a lot of businesses to risk the fact that the tarriff may one day be repealed. There is always risk in business. As one small example, AR15's could well be illegal in a few years yet Bushy, Armalite etc. etc. still invest and spend money on producing them for sale. If potential profit is higher than potential loss, it could happen. Very good points though. Keep 'em coming. Mike
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 11:00:47 AM EDT
if we could only buy american, the american dollar would be immediately worth more. the economy would begin a recovery, and oh yeah,, there would be a LOT more american production jobs..
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 11:04:19 AM EDT
I can't believe the naivete here. There is no such thing as a workable America-only tariff system unless we want to go back to an early-20th century standard of living or worse. I challenge anyone to define what constitutes an "American" product, particularly in such arenas as electronics or software.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 11:14:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BostonTeaParty: I can't believe the naivete here. There is no such thing as a workable America-only tariff system unless we want to go back to an early-20th century standard of living or worse. I challenge anyone to define what constitutes an "American" product, particularly in such arenas as electronics or software.
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Not only that, but Congress would never surrender the power to tax incomes. We'd wind up with higher prices AND the income tax.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 11:21:09 AM EDT
I would open a liquor store next to the union plants. [beer] They need their liquid lunch in between building our planes. [:D] Take it easy, I am sure the union is not protecting drunks. [beer]
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 11:23:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 12:56:05 PM EDT
So why should the govt use a tariff system in order for me to buy an inferior product just because it's American? There is a reason why no American company makes televisions, it's because someone else could do it better, cheaper. That's capitalism for you. If the government wants me to buy an American product, it should come up with a way to have companies make better products.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 1:14:45 PM EDT
I also prefer captalism too. A free market economy as opposed to a closed one. Every country that has tried the "buy local products only" has learned the hard way economically. Argentina is going through it now. State controlled banks, sky rocketing inflation, poor quality products for extremely high prices due to lack of competition and a steep decent into unemployment and chaos. Just about all of our Tariffs are punative. It's a penalty for protectionism from other economies against US imports. We really shouldn't have Tariffs, but when other countries won't open their markets to our products, there is not much else you can do.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 2:25:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 2:56:36 PM EDT
Take it easy, I am sure the union is not protecting drunks. [beer]
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You would be talking about my brother-in-law. He was a nuke inspector. He latter died of alcohol related problems (no, I'm not kidding) Anyway, in a related question, what would happen if we actually managed to kickout and keep out the illegals from south of the border? No one, I mean NO ONE will do some of the jobs they will do.
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