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Posted: 5/17/2002 2:56:37 PM EDT
Hey gang, I messed up today. I left outlook open on my desktop at work. My boss walked in during lunch and saw an email from a recruiter (I have been looking for something new for the last month or so). In the ensuing meeting(argument) things went downhill quickly and I was shown the door. Anyway, this is the first time in my adult life that I've been unemployed. I've got a nest egg built up and I'm single with few bills. That's good...but where do I go from here? Can I file for unemployment? Should I? I'm an accountant so hopefully I will at least get a temp job in the next month or two. Any advice y'all can give me would be greatly appreciated! Thanks... Matt P.S. At least she didn't catch me goofing off on AR15.com. She probably would have called the police, got a restraining order, and had my guns seized with no due process! See, I'm still an optimist! :o)
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 2:59:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:02:07 PM EDT
Get an attorney!
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:03:37 PM EDT
I agree I think you're leaving something out. Boss' dont just fire you for looking. I look all the time. What was she doing looking in at email?
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:04:04 PM EDT
Take all your cash you have saved, pack some clothes and blankets in your car and go on a cross-country road trip to "find yourself". That means you should go to all the big metro areas and look for Raves and House Parties to pick up "Officer, she said she was above legal age" slutty goth chicks who weigh 80 lbs. Than, when you run out of money, you'll have enough communicable diseases to shorten your life span to where you don't need to work, you'll be dead long before retirement age.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:04:44 PM EDT
Have a lawyer send a letter demanding a settlement. If you are over 40, claim ADEA, if under 40 claim federal or state (if applicible) gender discrimination. File for unemployment. Even if you are an at-will employee, that does not sound like a major misconduct discharge if the recruiter sent the email to you. They were looking to fire you if she was reading your email.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:06:16 PM EDT
I'll find out next week if I'm losing my job. We're having a big "layoff" Tuesday. After the way my co-workers and I have been treated, it seems like it would be a blessing in disguise. I do like my job though. Ever had to wait for three weeks to see if your lifestyle was going to change?
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:06:38 PM EDT
You could probably sue for invasion of privacy. I think she'd rather get you back then get sued.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:07:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NSFJojo: Take all your cash you have saved, pack some clothes and blankets in your car and go on a cross-country road trip to "find yourself". That means you should go to all the big metro areas and look for Raves and House Parties to pick up "Officer, she said she was above legal age" slutty goth chicks who weigh 80 lbs. Than, when you run out of money, you'll have enough communicable diseases to shorten your life span to where you don't need to work, you'll be dead long before retirement age.
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From the runaway best seller: 50 WAYS TO RUIN YOUR LIFE. [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/jpshakehead.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:09:20 PM EDT
In most circumstances you can file for unemployment...some rules vary from state to state. Check with your local Employment Security Commission (or whatever they call it) and follow their lead. Best of luck. Jim
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:12:15 PM EDT
Well, she didn't give me an "official" reason. Frankly, our conversation was heated so it was probably for "insubordination" or something along those lines...Frankly, I think I would have walked had she not shown me the door anyway...I'm supposed to pick up my last check tomorrow. I bet they'll ask me to sign some BS statement saying it was all my fault before they'll give me the check...Grrr. Matt
Originally Posted By Striker: Why exactly did she fire you? I don't know about American labor law but an employer just can't up and fire you for looking for another job in Canada. It's called "wrongful dismissal".
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Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:13:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2002 3:13:28 PM EDT by SNorman]
Originally Posted By Matt_in_Colorado: Can I file for unemployment? Should I?
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Probably, and yes. Your employer pays for unemployment insurance, USE IT. Especially in this case.
P.S. At least [U]she[/U] didn't catch me goofing off on AR15.com.
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There's the problem!
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:14:32 PM EDT
It was my fault for having that particular email highlighted (and thus readable) to anyone who walked in. She was dropping off some process documentation I was working on when she "accidentally" saw it... Matt
Originally Posted By ARDOC: I agree I think you're leaving something out. Boss' dont just fire you for looking. I look all the time. What was she doing looking in at email?
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Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:19:30 PM EDT
Since you were fired you can file for unemployment. I would suggest that you do file for unemployment and use that money plus what you have saved up and take a couple months off to do things that you have always wanted to do. When I lost my job in October I had no nest egg and a ton of bills. I made it. So if you have money and few bills you will get by just fine. To continue to recieve unemployment you have to show that you are looking for work.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:22:47 PM EDT
Thanks, SWIRE. I'm going to take a few days to reflect and then I just may take your advice. Again...thanks! Matt
Originally Posted By SWIRE: When I lost my job in October I had no nest egg and a ton of bills. I made it. So if you have money and few bills you will get by just fine. To continue to recieve unemployment you have to show that you are looking for work.
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Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:23:09 PM EDT
Matt, dont let them make it like you quit. Then no unemployment. I had a rifle sent to be repaired and it was delivered to my office because you need an adult signature and no is ever home during the day. Well the asshole opens and looks in my box. He calls me later in the day and says no firearms in the workplace. Its a SW5 with a SEF lower. He also asks me if its full-auto. Well we live in Michigan. No class III weapons. Then he tells me he ned a a new rifle too. But what an ass. Good luck finding a job. What do you do?
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:29:14 PM EDT
Sorry about loosing your job, Matt. good luck. FYI, Colorado is an employee-at-will state. That means you can quit for no reason at anytime and your employer can fire you for no reason at anytime. So Matt can't sue for "wrongful dismissal" here. He can try for unemployment, although if the employer can make "fired for cause" stick, he is out of luck there. -legrue
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:29:19 PM EDT
Well, I *was* the Staff Accountant for the General Ledger. Hopefully it won't be too hard for me to find something new. I'm more worried that this will be a Scarlett Letter on my resume so to speak...Thanks for the kind words... Matt
Originally Posted By ARDOC: Good luck finding a job. What do you do?
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Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:29:35 PM EDT
Welcome to the club!! I agreed to lose my "real" job just before 9/11. Wonderful timing. You can file for unemployment online, [url]www.coloradoworkforce.com[/url] I think. If you get vacation pay or a severence package, it will be deducted from your unemployment benefits. Might as well post your occupation here, someone may be able to help. Keep your chin-up, things will get better. HTH.....SRM
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:29:39 PM EDT
Don't sign anything that implies that you "resigned". Some companies will try to do that to "cover" themselves. Are you a CPA? I used Robert Half during a brief period of unemployment. Make sure you have health coverage, even if it's got a $2,000 deductable. (I call it disaster coverage).
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:31:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Greenhorn: You could probably sue for invasion of privacy. I think she'd rather get you back then get sued.
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Oh, company email belongs to the company, just like company phones. You use them, expect them to be monitored, whether or not they actually are.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:31:38 PM EDT
BTW, if you refuse to sign a "resignation letter" and they hold your check, do NOT sign it. Call US Dept. of Labor, they can force them to give you your last check. (I know from experience on the "firing" end).
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:42:06 PM EDT
I don't know the law in your jurisdiction but you generally cannot get unemployment if you are terminated for cause. Unemployment is a protection generally limited to employees who are laid off. If your employer claims you were conductiong personal business during work hours and using office equipment they may certainly be able support a terminatiuon claim. "Wrongful dissmissal???" in most U.S. jurisdictions employment is governed by work-at will guidlines which allow you to leave a job for any reason and an employer to terminate you for any reason other than discriminatory. As for filing a discrimination claim either under ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act or Title VII (Discrimination) be prepared to wait three years for your complaint to be investigated/resolved and beware a frivolous claim. You can ruin your reputation for years. Suggest that you have an atty call and request some type of reasonable severence package (if you have a long work history there) in exchange for a signed release by you. Make sure that they agree to keep the circumstances of your ...departure, confidential.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:45:14 PM EDT
Yes you can get unemployment. It will be about 50% of what you are used to getting. But whatever you do, DON'T become a FFL.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:47:39 PM EDT
You could start a business making HK knock offs!
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:55:47 PM EDT
I'm surfing that website right now. Thanks, SRM! Matt
Originally Posted By SRM: Welcome to the club!! I agreed to lose my "real" job just before 9/11. Wonderful timing. You can file for unemployment online, [url]www.coloradoworkforce.com[/url] I think. HTH.....SRM
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Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:58:25 PM EDT
How about a C&R license? Yeah, like I need more guns right now...:o) Matt
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Yes you can get unemployment. It will be about 50% of what you are used to getting. But whatever you do, DON'T become a FFL.
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Link Posted: 5/17/2002 4:04:45 PM EDT
Actually if you are into old guns the C&R is a great deal. Just wait till you have a job first.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 4:09:29 PM EDT
Since you now have no excuse not to, you should pack up your car & come to this thing called "the Black Rifle convention" in Nebo, IL. May 31 to June 2. There, you will shoot machine guns. Later you will consume mass quantities of adult beverages, & we will all sit down with you & discuss your future prospects. After we pump your stomach & take the lampshade off your head, that is. [:D]
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 4:14:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheHappyBlaster: Since you now have no excuse not to, you should pack up your car & come to this thing called "the Black Rifle convention" in Nebo, IL. May 31 to June 2. There, you will shoot machine guns. Later you will consume mass quantities of adult beverages, & we will all sit down with you & discuss your future prospects. After we pump your stomach & take the lampshade off your head, that is. [:D]
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WEll, I'd Say HappyBlaster just about covered everything [:D]
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 4:18:39 PM EDT
Actually, I am strongly considering doing just that. I'll need to rent a car as mine is pretty old and I'll need to make arrangements for my black lab before I can go anywhere. However, I wonder if anyone would like to carpool from Colorado...hmmmm....;o) Matt
Originally Posted By TheHappyBlaster: Since you now have no excuse not to, you should pack up your car & come to this thing called "the Black Rifle convention" Later you will consume mass quantities of adult beverages, & we will all sit down with you & discuss your future prospects. After we pump your stomach & take the lampshade off your head, that is. [:D]
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Link Posted: 5/17/2002 4:29:48 PM EDT
OK, here we go... http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=117609 Anyone up for a carpool from Colorado to the BRC? Matt
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:34:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2002 6:36:17 PM EDT by prk]
Originally Posted By legrue: Sorry about loosing your job, Matt. good luck. FYI, Colorado is an employee-at-will state. That means you can quit for no reason at anytime and your employer can fire you for no reason at anytime. So Matt can't sue for "wrongful dismissal" here. He can try for unemployment, although if the employer can make "fired for cause" stick, he is out of luck there. -legrue
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Ignore this well-meant advice and consult an attorney. You no longer are under their control, so do not do or say anything except on your attorney's advice. Legrue, are you saying no one has ever received a wrongful termination settlement or award in Colorado? I find that really hard to believe. Matt, can you prevent anyone from sending you an e-mail? I didn't think so. Your address could have been obtained from anywhere. I suggest you delete this entire thread at an appropriate point - ask the attorney. If the e-mail in question referred to something you actually said/did with the recruiter, they can of course try to use it against you.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:42:09 PM EDT
Sue her for sexual harassment.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:43:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2002 6:49:44 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:43:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Striker: Why exactly did she fire you? I don't know about American labor law but an employer just can't up and fire you for looking for another job in Canada. It's called "wrongful dismissal".
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Depends on what the companies "use policy" is for the internet. Can't be fired for job hunting, but you can at our company for using company equipment and time to do it... Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:59:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matt_in_Colorado: I'm surfing that website right now. Thanks, SRM! Matt
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No problem Matt. Apply as quickly as possible, the current wait is 8-12 weeks before you actually get a check. The amount is based on your prior pay and maxes out at around $390/week (before taxes). I was denied unemployment because I had a severence package. Anyone need a mining geologist? See you at the range..... SRM
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 7:41:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2002 7:50:55 PM EDT by 71-Hour_Achmed]
Originally Posted By Matt_in_Colorado: Hopefully it won't be too hard for me to find something new. I'm more worried that this will be a Scarlett Letter on my resume
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Frankly my dear, most employers don't give a damn. I don't know about the accounting market. I hear there are a lot of jobs open at Andersen, though. [:D] BTW, as others have written, yes, do file for unemployment. You've been paying for it all these years, might as well get 5% of it back.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 10:05:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 10:13:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2002 10:17:03 PM EDT by legrue]
Originally Posted By prk:
Originally Posted By legrue: Sorry about loosing your job, Matt. good luck. FYI, Colorado is an employee-at-will state. That means you can quit for no reason at anytime and your employer can fire you for no reason at anytime. So Matt can't sue for "wrongful dismissal" here. He can try for unemployment, although if the employer can make "fired for cause" stick, he is out of luck there. -legrue
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Ignore this well-meant advice and consult an attorney. You no longer are under their control, so do not do or say anything except on your attorney's advice. Legrue, are you saying no one has ever received a wrongful termination settlement or award in Colorado? I find that really hard to believe. Matt, can you prevent anyone from sending you an e-mail? I didn't think so. Your address could have been obtained from anywhere. I suggest you delete this entire thread at an appropriate point - ask the attorney. If the e-mail in question referred to something you actually said/did with the recruiter, they can of course try to use it against you.
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Not trying to start a flame war here or be nasty in anyway, but I'm fairly confident that I know what I'm talking about and you don't, PRK. I say that because I have been involved in HR departments for the last 15 years in Colorado as part of my job. Were Mat an employee fired from my company, I have no fear that we could defend the firing AND deny him unemployement benefits. But if Matt wants to consult an attorney, consult away. SRM, Mining Geologist? Ouch. I got outta that before I got started, but some friends didn't. Did you go to CSM?
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 12:31:07 AM EDT
In my position recruiters are constantly calling trying to get us to switch over. You must be pretty easily replace if she was willing to let you go just because of some other company wanted to hire you. I think there is more to the reason you are gone and the fact that you were dissatisfied and looking was icing on the cake. No one worth keeping gets fired for getting a better offer. This is how counter offers come and you better your pay by staying at the same company.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 12:51:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2002 12:53:29 AM EDT by prk]
Originally Posted By legrue:
Originally Posted By prk:
Originally Posted By legrue: Sorry about loosing your job, Matt. good luck. FYI, Colorado is an employee-at-will state. That means you can quit for no reason at anytime and your employer can fire you for no reason at anytime. So Matt can't sue for "wrongful dismissal" here. He can try for unemployment, although if the employer can make "fired for cause" stick, he is out of luck there. -legrue
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Ignore this well-meant advice and consult an attorney. You no longer are under their control, so do not do or say anything except on your attorney's advice. Legrue, are you saying no one has ever received a wrongful termination settlement or award in Colorado? I find that really hard to believe. Matt, can you prevent anyone from sending you an e-mail? I didn't think so. Your address could have been obtained from anywhere. I suggest you delete this entire thread at an appropriate point - ask the attorney. If the e-mail in question referred to something you actually said/did with the recruiter, they can of course try to use it against you.
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Not trying to start a flame war here or be nasty in anyway, but I'm fairly confident that I know what I'm talking about and you don't, PRK. I say that because I have been involved in HR departments for the last 15 years in Colorado as part of my job. Were Mat an employee fired from my company, I have no fear that we could defend the firing AND deny him unemployement benefits. But if Matt wants to consult an attorney, consult away. ...
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You say this knowing only a few of the facts, like the rest of us. Yeah I think that seeing an attorney would be a good thing for him to do. We have so-called at-will employment here, too, and lots of attorneys doing pretty well representing guys like him. Especially against confident, "no fear" companies. Take a look at what we do know: A heated decision by his boss, no progressive discipline. Is there proof he solicited that e-mail? A written policy against ALL personal use of e-mail? Is there even an employee manual? HR people tend to believe their arena is the paradigm employees have to operate within. You think he's supposed to take whatever HR serves up? That's why he should at least bounce the facts off an attorney -- companies and HR people love to bluff a lot of bullshit, and the attorney provides him with a level field and an independent advocate who knows his rights. He's not going to get that by talking to HR. My own 25+ years of business experience in companies large and small have taught me that on-the-spot termination without prior discipline is not as defensible as you might believe. Matt, let us know what happens.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 9:33:42 AM EDT
PRK, I will agree with you that we know few of the facts. These are: -Matt had a recruitment letter on his company computer, using presumably, company email. -Matt got into an arguement that deteriorated until his boss fired him. Missing information includes: -Is there a written policy against personal email and computer use. And if so, did Matt sign off on it? -Did Matt contact this recruiter first or was it a blind solicitation? -What happened in the arguement? Was there name calling? Threats? Given the tone of Matt's post, I went ahead and made the assumption that the letter was solicited beforehand by Matt. Now, it is established case law that work email belongs to the employer for business use and NOT the employee. Still, if there is not an established policy, then no harm, no foul. If there is, Matt may or may not be fired based on the wording of the policy AND established company practice, which MUST be uniform for all employees. Second, Matt got into a heated arguement with his manager. What exactly happened? If Matt got nasty or wouldn't back down, that is insubordination. His real hope was that a policy was not in writing. If it was, Matt was clearly in the wrong. Further, Matt realizes that he is not supposed to be goofing off at work at ar15.com, but she didn't catch him there, so again, no harm, no foul. Of course, the company also has the right to track websites visited, so beware. Now what you probably don't realize, PRK, is that Colorado traditionally sides with employers in these types of cases, given that the employer isn't a complete screw up and the firing is not egregeously "unfair" (and not withstanding, illegal under state or several federal statutes). Still, Colorado IS a work-at-will state, and the judges here tend to rule along those lines. Your point regarding progressive discipline is well taken. Again, since we don't know what exactly happened, we have to try to extrapolate from what Matt wrote. When he said "heated", I assumed REALLY heated. If he used cuss words, personal insults, threats, or any actual force, the company can probably defend firing him on the spot. If not, he may have a case, again depending on written policies and established company practices. To answer your other question, No, Absolutely NOT do I expect any employee to take any and everything that HR decides it wants to do. The flip side is that the company deserves the same consideration. I have seen employers screw employees and I have seen employees screw employers (not talking about Matt here). A good HR/Safety department will try to minimize both cases by writing legally defensible policies, by training employees in said policies, and, by getting that training in writing. The last point that must be made is that it boils down to who can present the best case in court, Matt or the Company. Let us assume the Matt really is right. Is he and his lawyer confident that he muster enough proof that his firing was wrong? Can he afford to mount a case like this for probably years while unemployed? What will prospective employers think if they find out Matt is sueing his former employer? Will Matt even want to return to his former company if a judge decides in his favor and awards him his old job, back pay, and possibly damages? So yes, there is alot neither one of us knows. I hope that clarifies my earlier posts. regards, legrue
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 12:39:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Yes you can get unemployment. It will be about 50% of what you are used to getting. But whatever you do, DON'T become a FFL.
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50% of salary???? Not even close. Current weekly is $330, which means $660/wk or $33k a year. Then there's my salary reaching into the millions... It's not "a FFL" but "an FFL" FFL is pronounced eFeFL NOT FaFaL, requiring the "an" that is all...
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 1:02:19 PM EDT
It's just a job, man. F it, you were looking for a job when you found that one. You may be able to make your case based on 1. Sexual discrimination. Women tend to lord it over male subordinates. 2. Women dont know how to argue with men. There are certain things men will not say to each other b/c there is a possibility of an ass-kicking. I have worked for very few women, any of which would have greatly benefitted from a serious spanking. It;s by no means the end of the world. It's just a paycheck, if you can get by without it enjoy the free time.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 1:21:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Greenhorn: You could probably sue for invasion of privacy. I think she'd rather get you back then get sued.
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Not if it was on a company network and they have a policy. Our company has a NO personal use policy. It's a good thing to be fired at tleast once in your life. You realize that it's NOT the end of the world and you also learn that you can and should take more of certain kinds of risks (which can lead to bigger things). Sounds as if there was already some other extenuating circumstances. What's the REST of the story? You were already talking to a recruiter, so you are in process. The headhunter should feel somewhat obligated to help you into a new gig because it WAS his communication with you that got you into trouble. Of course you shouldn't have done it via company network. Yahoo mail? Anyone?
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 1:38:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chaingun:
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: But whatever you do, DON'T become a FFL.
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It's not "a FFL" but "an FFL" FFL is pronounced eFeFL NOT FaFaL, requiring the "an"
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Actually "a FFL" is perfectly appropriate, considering that quite a few people expand the acronym in speech and don't actually say "eFeFeL," but rather "Federal Firearm Licensee."
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:13:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2002 2:14:30 PM EDT by Code39]
Matt! You are the luckiest man alive! You can now go to the BRC........... BRC...BRC...BRC...BRC... Pack your bags! [beer] When the BRC has ended and you return home you can deal with this matter much better. Take a break and enjoy life for a bit. You'll be back to work sooner than you think! Good-luck
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:45:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By legrue: SRM, Mining Geologist? Ouch. I got outta that before I got started, but some friends didn't. Did you go to CSM?
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Montana Tech, Yep the domestic mining industry is small and getting smaller. [:(] SRM
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