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Posted: 5/17/2002 6:38:13 AM EDT
www.pressconnects.com/today/topstories/stories/to051702s104658.shtml Sorry if the link doesn't work This happened not far from my house. There were a total of 16 shots fired by the troopers. One of the two shots fired by the driver hit the troopers Glock 17, disabling it. The guns were stolen. So much for gun laws keeping weapons out of criminals hands.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:40:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2002 6:42:31 AM EDT by KBaker]
[url]www.pressconnects.com/today/topstories/stories/to051702s104658.shtml[/url] A T/C Contender with a [i]collapsable[/i] stock?
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:52:09 AM EDT
Bad guy with a .38 snubby takes on two cops with Glocks and body armor. Oops, bad decision. [X]
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:56:22 AM EDT
In an interview with his parents, they weren't surprised his life ended this way. He had gotten into drugs. They even suggested it might have been a suicide by cop. His buddy was pretty smart though, when the lead started flying he hit the dirt and stayed there.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 7:09:00 AM EDT
7 of 16 rounds fired connected? Wow. I'm impressed. Tell me again why it's safer for highly-trained cops to carry guns, and not citizens? I could train a fucking monkey to shoot that well. Oh, yeah...I wasn't there, I don't know what it's likeblahblahblahblah. QS
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 7:11:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker: A T/C Contender with a [i]collapsable[/i] stock?
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[img]www.foxridgeoutfitters.com/customshop/foldingstock.jpg[/img] Perhaps this is what they called 'collapsible'
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 7:15:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: 7 of 16 rounds fired connected? Wow. I'm impressed. Tell me again why it's safer for highly-trained cops to carry guns, and not citizens? I could train a fucking monkey to shoot that well. Oh, yeah...I wasn't there, I don't know what it's likeblahblahblahblah. QS
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Monday Morning Quarterbacking already huh?
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 7:18:11 AM EDT
You know, I really don't intend to flame...but if a citizen tossed that much lead around there'd be a hell of a lot more consequences than this. Ahhh...fuck it.. I really don't have the stomach for this argument again.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 7:21:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 7:36:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Waverunner:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: 7 of 16 rounds fired connected? Wow. I'm impressed. Tell me again why it's safer for highly-trained cops to carry guns, and not citizens? I could train a fucking monkey to shoot that well. Oh, yeah...I wasn't there, I don't know what it's likeblahblahblahblah. QS
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Monday Morning Quarterbacking already huh?
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I'm not gonna say I could train a monkey to shoot that well but I do think our LEO's need more time at the range. I employ a number of LEO's as off-duty security and they all profess to not getting or putting in enough time at the range to be experts with their handguns.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 7:41:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SGB:
I could train a fucking monkey to shoot that well
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Well, you did a fine job on his typing skills.[;)]
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ROFL!
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 7:42:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: 7 of 16 rounds fired connected?
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I don't mean to be too critical, but that is pretty good when you are under stress. I think the LAPD did a study a few years back, and standing 10 feet away, they expected their guys to hit the opponent only 50% of the time. TRy participating in a local IDPA/IPSC match sometimes, when you are under the pressure of time to hit the correct target in the minimum of time and even without the target firing back, I tried it once, and it was pretty tough.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 7:46:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SGB:
I could train a fucking monkey to shoot that well
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Well, you did a fine job on his typing skills.[;)]
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GODDAMMIT! I pulled a muscle from laughing so hard. You're gonna get me FIRED!
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 7:46:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 7:54:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: 7 of 16 rounds fired connected?
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I don't mean to be too critical, but that is pretty good when you are under stress. I think the LAPD did a study a few years back, and standing 10 feet away, they expected their guys to hit the opponent only 50% of the time. TRy participating in a local IDPA/IPSC match sometimes, when you are under the pressure of time to hit the correct target in the minimum of time and even without the target firing back, I tried it once, and it was pretty tough.
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I've done it several more times than once...and my NSHO is if you can't at least hit a B27 SOMEWHERE at 10 feet EVERY time under ANY circumstance including shooting with your feet, you need to get a can of OC and leave your pistol at home before you hurt somebody. QS
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:20:05 AM EDT
All you guys slamming the number of misses, have you ever thought that maybe the bad guy was under cover part of the time and was moving around? He didn't just stand still, I'm sure.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:20:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Originally Posted By warlord:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: 7 of 16 rounds fired connected?
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I don't mean to be too critical, but that is pretty good when you are under stress. I think the LAPD did a study a few years back, and standing 10 feet away, they expected their guys to hit the opponent only 50% of the time. TRy participating in a local IDPA/IPSC match sometimes, when you are under the pressure of time to hit the correct target in the minimum of time and even without the target firing back, I tried it once, and it was pretty tough.
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I've done it several more times than once...and my NSHO is if you can't at least hit a B27 SOMEWHERE at 10 feet EVERY time under ANY circumstance including shooting with your feet, you need to get a can of OC and leave your pistol at home before you hurt somebody. QS
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Whatever. Quietshooter, why don't you take down your silly B-27 and shoot at some real targets. Something smaller than IPSC/IDPA targets and three-dimensional. Then... 1) Dress you targets in dark clothes...now you can't see where your hits end up. 2) Set up your targets at oblique angles...your "A-zone" shrinks to the size of a baseball. 3) Make your targets move erratically and not just stand there waiting to be shot. 4) While you're not watching, have someone put cell phones, pagers, and wallets into the hands of some of your targets and weapons into the hands of other targets. Now you have to look for and discriminate threats. 5) Shoot with a welding helmet on to simulate darkness (or shoot in the dark). 6) Set-up 20 courses-of-fire but only one to three actually involve shooting. 7) Do 25 pushups and 50 jumping jacks before each course-of-fire to elevate your heartrate to simulate the adrenaline dump. 8) And finally, shoot yourself in the hand and do all of the courses-of-fire one handed (because the LEO also got shot in the hand). Now lets look at how well your monkey training does. Idiot.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:29:04 AM EDT
James4, that, my friend...........was perfect! jester[:)]
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:38:36 AM EDT
Personally, I thought that was pretty good shooting. There was an incident in Carrollton, TX about 5 or 6 years ago where 2 (or 3?) cops used 96 rounds [b]in a residential neighborhood[/b] and hit the bad guy something like 3 times. My memory is a little fuzzy on the number of hits, but I definitely remember them firing 96 rounds. [b]That[/b] is not only bad shooting, it's irresponsible in a residential area. But hey, I'm not a LEO, what do I know.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:38:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: 7 of 16 rounds fired connected? Wow. I'm impressed. Tell me again why it's safer for highly-trained cops to carry guns, and not citizens? I could train a fucking monkey to shoot that well. Oh, yeah...I wasn't there, I don't know what it's likeblahblahblahblah. QS
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Yes you weren't there. And you answered your own question.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:45:15 AM EDT
Most LEOs shoot at least twice a year...[:D]
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:52:43 AM EDT
Given the circumstances (moving target shooting back), I think the hit rate is acceptable, trained monkeys not withstanding. -budding IPSC shooter
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 8:53:31 AM EDT
This was in a residential area. A couple of the flyers did hit houses. Luckily no one else got hit.It was at 6pm on a weeknight, kids out playing, people doing yard work etc. I thought it was good he was able to hit him that many times.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 9:06:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: 7 of 16 rounds fired connected? Wow. I'm impressed. Tell me again why it's safer for highly-trained cops to carry guns, and not citizens? I could train a fucking monkey to shoot that well.
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How many thrown clay pigeons can you hit with a rifle? How many thrown clay pigeons can you hit with your handgun? How many could you hit while moving yourself and being shot at?
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 9:10:35 AM EDT
I think they did OK, I would expect more misses in a real gunfight than on the shooting range seeing as the target does not *want* to be hit, and is also shooting back thus requiring you to take cover/evasive action plus return fire at the same time, all while they are doing the same.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 9:12:09 AM EDT
I am just glad that things ended the way they did (bad guy dead, police alive, no one else hurt). I am sure we can all agree on that... right? Eric/Tyler
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 9:16:58 AM EDT
A buddy of mine ownes a gun shop in Burlington (read that VT). A guy showed on on a Monday (his day closed) and shot the front door. Was seen by others in the lot, and they called the police. He drove down the street and they stoped him in a block. He leveled a shotgun at them and they shot the piss out of him. No court date needed. He was one of our recent immigrants from eastern Europe. Good training lesson for all other minded folks.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 9:18:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 9:53:42 AM EDT
How many thrown clay pigeons can you hit with a rifle? How many thrown clay pigeons can you hit with your handgun? How many could you hit while moving yourself and being shot at?
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1) well, last time I tried it, I hit four out of ten, using a straight away throw. You're welcome to come to my farm and try it yourself. 2) Never tried that. Probably doesn't matter, since most humans are a lot bigger and move a lot slower. 3) Probably doesn't matter either....do they shoot at you at Vandalia?
Whatever. Quietshooter, why don't you take down your silly B-27 and shoot at some real targets. Something smaller than IPSC/IDPA targets and three-dimensional. Then...
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I didn't say that was a valid target. I said that if you can't even hit a B-27 at ten feet regardless of how scared/cold/tired/pressured you are, which as far as I'm concerned is like shooting a whale, you are too fucking incompetent to be carrying a pistol in public. If you don't agree, this probably applies to you.
2) Set up your targets at oblique angles...your "A-zone" shrinks to the size of a baseball.
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Well, no shit. See above answer. Make up your mind - is a B27 too big, or a baseball-size A-zone too small?
4) While you're not watching, have someone put cell phones, pagers, and wallets into the hands of some of your targets and weapons into the hands of other targets. Now you have to look for and discriminate threats. 5) Shoot with a welding helmet on to simulate darkness (or shoot in the dark). 6) Set-up 20 courses-of-fire but only one to three actually involve shooting. 7) Do 25 pushups and 50 jumping jacks before each course-of-fire to elevate your heartrate to simulate the adrenaline dump. 8) And finally, shoot yourself in the hand and do all of the courses-of-fire one handed (because the LEO also got shot in the hand). Now lets look at how well your monkey training does. Idiot.
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Okay...you win. Cops know best.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 9:57:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
How many thrown clay pigeons can you hit with a rifle? How many thrown clay pigeons can you hit with your handgun? How many could you hit while moving yourself and being shot at?
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1) well, last time I tried it, I hit four out of ten, using a straight away throw.
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That is about the same hit to miss ratio the cops scored. But their target didnt move straight away.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 10:04:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 10:11:19 AM EDT
I think not. Their targets weren't 5 inches in diameter and moving over 100 mph, and at least 25-40 yards away when the shot broke.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 10:18:27 AM EDT
Seems like the crap is piled high on a certain someone's farm in my opinion. And the farmer likes to curse!! [:O]
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 10:22:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 10:29:59 AM EDT
As you say. Since I'm not a police officer, any training or experience I might have had is totally irrelevant. In case I wasn't clear, I'm glad they're okay. However, let's not confuse luck with skill. Sounds to me like someone lost their cool. Fourteen rounds on one target!?!? and let's give his partner 50% credit for the actual hits. Someone was doing the good old fashioned spray-and-pray and got lucky - twice. Once in that he hit the idiot before he hit them, and twice in that he (I say he since the older officer only fired two shots, which we'll assume for the purposes of this discussion both connected) didn't waste some innocent bystander with their uncontrolled gunfire.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 10:34:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SGB:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: I think not. Their targets weren't 5 inches in diameter and moving over 100 mph, and at least 25-40 yards away when the shot broke.
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[>:/]..over 100 mph?[;)] Ps........you weren't wounded and taking fire either.
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I wasn't disputing that at all..and getting shot at does matter... I'm simply saying that hitting an 18"x24"-ish relatively stationary target at close range with a pistol doesn't really compare to tagging a clay with a rifle. And I've never chronographed a clay pigeon from a ground-mounted thrower, but wouldn't you think it would be at least a little faster than a major-league fastball? I could be wrong about that.
Give it up, these guys did good.
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They lived and the bad guy died...that much is good. The technical aspect is a little less than 4.0, imho. and that's all it is, my opinion. QS
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 10:55:21 AM EDT
Just for clarification.... The trooper who was hit (Spero)in the hand only got off two shots before his gun malfunctioned( the 38 slug hit his glock in the grip, jamming the magazine spring, fragmented and injured his hand.He was still able to get off two shots before the gun jammed, and while injured. The other 14 shots were fired by Dean (the other trooper). Still that's a 50% hit ratio across the trunk of a car at a moving target that's returning fire.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 11:00:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 12:10:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 12:56:02 PM EDT
None taken, if that was directed at me. I have had guns pointed at me before. Going into the details wouldn't serve any purpose. Suffice it to say that when I have been confronted with a weapon, both knives and guns, I have thus far been satisfied with my performance. I AM qualified to comment on this situation, whether some of you LEOs think so or not. I am an Army Infantry veteran, and I have more hours of private training invested than some of you have eaten donuts. Get over yourselves. Putting a badge on does not make you an authority in matters of armed confrontation. Some police are RKIs in that area, but the vast majority are not.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 1:30:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Skeet67: Just for clarification.... The trooper who was hit (Spero)in the hand only got off two shots before his gun malfunctioned( the 38 slug hit his glock in the grip, jamming the magazine spring, fragmented and injured his hand.He was still able to get off two shots before the gun jammed, and while injured. The other 14 shots were fired by Dean (the other trooper). Still that's a 50% hit ratio across the trunk of a car at a moving target that's returning fire.
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Sounds to me like the uninjured Trooper had to resort to suppressive fire, at a concealed or semi concealed target, from cover, in an effort to protect the hurt Trooper. That makes the hit ratio pretty damn good and this whole argument pointless. QuietShooter, IMHO, in this case you are wrong. Perhaps you should get some Simunition or Airsoft and try it. Love, I fellow clay pigeon on the farm AR-15 and 1911 shooter.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 1:56:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: 7 of 16 rounds fired connected? Wow. I'm impressed. Tell me again why it's safer for highly-trained cops to carry guns, and not citizens? I could train a fucking monkey to shoot that well. Oh, yeah...I wasn't there, I don't know what it's likeblahblahblahblah. QS
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Give yourself a pat on the back and a metal of some sort. Jay [img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 2:05:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2002 2:07:59 PM EDT by medcop]
I just love it how people can judge a LEO when they did not witness the event for themselves. I just love it when people complain about LEO when a shooting takes place. The people that complain have for the most part never been in a situation that warrented lethal force. NO person knows what they will do when confronted with someone shooting at them unless they have actually had someone shooting at them! You may say and actually believe that you could have a better hit to miss ratio. You may say that you would not have fired so many rounds. How the hell do you know this unless you have done it! You can talk all you want about having knives or guns pulled on you. You can talk all you want about shooting clay birds with a handgun or rifle. You can talk all you want about how you performed in those settings. [b]Now talk about how you performed when you were getting shot at![/b] Can you do it? medcop
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 2:37:19 PM EDT
I just love it how people can judge a LEO when they did not witness the event for themselves. I just love it when people complain about LEO when a shooting takes place.
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And I just love it how NO-ONE is EVER qualified to EVER criticize how well LEO's use force. Its ALWAYS "you werent there, you arn't experienced". After a few hundred times of being told it becomes quite clear that what they really want is to never hear any criticism anytime ever about cops... This is why law enforcement never improves in this country, and why we keep lurching from one fuck up to another. Because even the cops who know what they are doing refuse to say to the rest "You know what, your performance sucks and you need to train more".
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 2:56:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
I just love it how people can judge a LEO when they did not witness the event for themselves. I just love it when people complain about LEO when a shooting takes place.
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And I just love it how NO-ONE is EVER qualified to EVER criticize how well LEO's use force. Its ALWAYS "you werent there, you arn't experienced". After a few hundred times of being told it becomes quite clear that what they really want is to never hear any criticism anytime ever about cops... This is why law enforcement never improves in this country, and why we keep lurching from one fuck up to another. Because even the cops who know what they are doing refuse to say to the rest "You know what, your performance sucks and you need to train more".
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Jesus Christ, finally a voice of reason. That's all I was trying to say. I'll admit, the monkey comment was over the top, and I apologize for that. But good God...ArmdLbrl has scored an A-zone hit. As for my performance, I won't be baited into trading war stories. I know what I've participated in. As Forrest Gump once said, "That's all I have to say about that." This is an unwinnable argument for anyone. I believe many (NOT all) cops are ill-trained buffoons that shouldn't be walking around in public with a deadly weapon. Some of you guys seem to believe the same of me or any other civilian who dares to comment on your methods. That's fine. Let it go at that. We all know what we think, so go home and have a beer.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:07:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:08:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
I just love it how people can judge a LEO when they did not witness the event for themselves. I just love it when people complain about LEO when a shooting takes place.
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And I just love it how NO-ONE is EVER qualified to EVER criticize how well LEO's use force. Its ALWAYS "you werent there, you arn't experienced". After a few hundred times of being told it becomes quite clear that what they really want is to never hear any criticism anytime ever about cops... This is why law enforcement never improves in this country, and why we keep lurching from one fuck up to another. Because even the cops who know what they are doing refuse to say to the rest "You know what, your performance sucks and you need to train more".
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I never said that people were not qualified to criticize. The point I was trying to make is that people were posting how they could have done better in that situation. How they feel that the shot hit percentage was low. I was saying that they were not on scene. They did not know the fear and emotions going through the officers being shot at. People complain and criticize about every LEO involved shooting that takes place. It is human nature for people to do so. However, when people start saying crap that they could shoot better or whatever...that is total BS! They don't know what they could do unless they have been in that situation. Hell, they may just stand up, piss themselves, and take a bullet to the chest. You NEVER know how you are going to react. I love criticism when it is given in a valid way. Criticism makes you do a better job overall. People who just stand up and say I could have done better....for the most part could not have. I agree that LEO need to train more. I go to the range with people who just barely qualify each time. Scary?...hell yes it is. These are the same people I try to take shooting with me so that can get some practice. 9 out of 10 times they won't go...why? Because they don't care. You said something about training and LEO saying you are not trained. I think I am safe to say that 95%+ of the population in the US in NOT trained to handle a lethal force incident. I just get tired of people bad mouthing LEO in general over isolated incidents. People lump all LEO into one big pile. That is not how it should be. It makes me mad because I train very hard with the tools of my job. What will I do when I am shot at? What will my shot hit percentage be? I have NO idea! I may stand up, piss my pants, and take a round to the head. However, I have been trained to use cover and concealment, trained on how to properly shoot in various incidents. The training list goes on and on. The old saying people resort to how they train and were trained in a time of fear. Well, unless someone is shooting at you, you do not know how you will react. medcop
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:11:01 PM EDT
Fine by me. [beer]
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:24:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: I could train a fucking monkey to shoot that well. ... I've done it several more times than once...and my NSHO is if you can't at least hit a B27 SOMEWHERE at 10 feet EVERY time under ANY circumstance including shooting with your feet, you need to get a can of OC and leave your pistol at home before you hurt somebody.
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Now ArmdLbrl, do the above qualify as discourse and criticism or are they insults and boasting? I'm not LEO but his post was stupid and insulting enough to warrant a response even from a citizen like me. Yes, LEO need to improve their training and performance in virtually every aspect of their job. However, the above are not criticisms…they are insults from an, at-best, unqualified individual. This is the only thing you can credit him for… He cunningly expanded the debate to "oh so cops are unimpeachable" once he realized he had stepped in it (and then put both feet in his mouth). Nice recovery but we see through you.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:25:21 PM EDT
I'll hold my 2 cents cause it has ALL been said except for this. A clay taken by rifle requires great skill. But that round goes somewhere. I wouldn't want to live within 5 miles of you.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:33:57 PM EDT
Its quite amazing how many firearms get hit in a firefight. I remember reading a study where an actual number was given.
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