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Posted: 5/16/2002 4:33:47 AM EDT
There has been alot of talk about SHTF on this board and here at work lately. Even though the people here don't call it SHTF, its still what they are talking about, especially since the movie "sum of all fears" started being advertised. I listen close in the break room to the women and non gun carrying men talk about this, I can't believe how many people still trust the police (no offense LEO, my dad is a LEO here) and the gov't. to take care of them in a SHTF situation. They call me a gun freak and paranoid for owning several guns. Did 9-11 not wake anybody up? Seems everyone is lulled back to sleep already.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:44:35 AM EDT
Rem: This is the day of short term memories. The media floods us with so much information on a daily basis that the important stuff is quickly buried. That, coupled with people's desire to quickly return to comfort, makes for a very fast recovery time. It seems the tragedy and outrage of 9-11 will be forgotten as soon as the last bucket of debris is cleared from the twin towers. When was the last time you heard anything about Afghanistan on the news? If it means anything, I think about it every day. At least there is a dialogue where you work. Where I work, nobody ever talks about it at all. -White Horse
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:52:48 AM EDT
This is simply a symptom that the federal government's desire to ever expand it's power, and diminish our personal freedoms, by convincing the people that in times of crisis the government will be there to protect them. This seems to be very attractive to a great many people because it relieves them of the responsibility for their own safety and the safety of their families. It seems to me that if any thoughtful person took time to consider this rationally it would be readily apparent that, should the SHTF, government resources would be so over whelmed that we would essentially be on our own, at least for several days or weeks. Look to you own safety and don't expect the government to do it for you!
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:54:16 AM EDT
people want to feel safe. as much of a shock as 9-11 was, most people were not directly effected, and would just as soon forget it and go back to watching soap and making a buck. white_horse is correct, if it takes more than 60 seconds to explain, people lose interest. blame it on the pace of life, or the evil media, or whatever. but many of us, especially here, will never forget. this may well be a watershed event, in the way americans see and are seen by the world, and in whether we retain our rights as americans.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:55:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rem_700: I can't believe how many people still trust the police (no offense LEO, my dad is a LEO here) and the gov't. to take care of them in a SHTF situation.
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This is what always amazes me as well. I guess I've always depended on myself, so I'm the exception. I like to ask folks a simple question - [i]"what gov't agency do you think does a good job?". [/i]Few can answer that question. So why do the sheeple trust them to handle a crisis?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 5:09:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2002 5:12:27 AM EDT by tatjana]
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 5:10:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2002 5:13:58 AM EDT by tatjana]
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 6:12:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 9:11:52 AM EDT
There is no one reaon why a lot people are apathetic. I think people are too pre-occupied with their own lives to worry about other things. The news media has did a reaonable job of brain washing the masses that in that an emergency all you have to do is dial 911 on the phone and help will arrive, and the govt(emergency services) has driven home that impression in order to win more funding, BUT they don't say that the system can be overwhelmed very quickly if there were multiple or extended emergencies, or happening over a wild area; and they don't tell the public that they are not responsible if they don't arrive or arrive too late. And also the media has convinced a lot of people that they are coooks & weidos and extremists if they accumulate emergency supplies. People never learn that you are responsible for your own well-being & safety. Witness during '93 tropical storm Andrew in Florida, the '92 L.A. riots, people were screaming for help, and no one showed up.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 9:23:58 AM EDT
I am Swiss and for some reason I feel that my family's safety is my concern. I keep up prepared for whatever happens. Also I keep enough on hand for the neighbors or friends, a select group. If it gets stupid, I will not turn away certain people, also there is safety in numbers. A couple close friends on the local barrierr island know that they can find refuge here, but they also would come with their arms full and weapons loaded.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 9:27:41 AM EDT
The 911 system is already overloaded, mostly with stupid calls asking for directory assistance and other non-emergency requests. For instance: ""What temperature to cook their turkey at, if the police department's open, what's the number for information, loud music ... " [url]http://www.thedenverchannel.com/den/news/stories/news-106513620011108-231123.html[/url]
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 9:33:57 AM EDT
It is sad. [:(] The more time that passes, the less people remember.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:44:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:47:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:47:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:56:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2002 10:57:41 AM EDT by warlord]
Originally Posted By tatjana:
Originally Posted By TheWind: I am Swiss and for some reason I feel that my family's safety is my concern. I keep up prepared for whatever happens. Also I keep enough on hand for the neighbors or friends, a select group. If it gets stupid, I will not turn away certain people, also there is safety in numbers. A couple close friends on the local barrierr island know that they can find refuge here, but they also would come with their arms full and weapons loaded.
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Exactly! (Where are you from? Liechtenstein originally here).
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I read a story in Modern Survival before they went belly up, where one family in Knoxville, TN prepared for exteme emergencies and how they survived a terrible snow storm and everyone else had a real tough time. The next year, they got hit again, the same people were still not prepared, and was caught flat-footed again.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:58:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2002 11:07:08 AM EDT by Wadman]
Isn't it ironic how non-gun people like to poke fun of the "gun nut." But when they contemplate an emergency situation, the "gun nut" is who they want to be with. I heard a quote attributed to Heinlein but can't verify it. But it's a good one whatever its origin: Everyone should have to run for their lives at least once to teach them that 1. Milk doesn't come from a store 2. Safety doesn't come from the police 3. News isn't what happens to other people (I might have read this in an old Cooper's Corner in the back of a Guns'n Ammo)
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 11:17:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Wadman: Isn't it ironic how non-gun people like to poke fun of the "gun nut." But when they contemplate an emergency situation, the "gun nut" is who they want to be with.
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I remember during the '92 L.A. riots, certain people called the owner of a So. Calif. gun manufacturing firm to give them a gun without any waiting period and background check becaue the wolves were at the door, but she had to tell'em "sorry, no deal, I could go to prison for 20 years, it is a federal offense."
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 11:21:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2002 11:22:14 AM EDT by tatjana]
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 11:25:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord:
Originally Posted By Wadman: Isn't it ironic how non-gun people like to poke fun of the "gun nut." But when they contemplate an emergency situation, the "gun nut" is who they want to be with.
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I remember during the '92 L.A. riots, certain people called the owner of a So. Calif. gun manufacturing firm to give them a gun without any waiting period and background check becaue the wolves were at the door, but she had to tell'em "sorry, no deal, I could go to prison for 20 years, it is a federal offense."
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This also reminds me of a story from the 92 riots , its seems that Mr Schartzennegger's rabid anti-gun neighbors came knocking at his door in order to ask if they could borrow some firearms from him . You'd think that they would have learned .
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 12:02:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Originally Posted By Rem_700: I can't believe how many people still trust the police (no offense LEO, my dad is a LEO here) and the gov't. to take care of them in a SHTF situation.
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This is what always amazes me as well. I guess I've always depended on myself, so I'm the exception. I like to ask folks a simple question - [i]"what gov't agency do you think does a good job?". [/i]Few can answer that question. So why do the sheeple trust them to handle a crisis?
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Simple. The alternative is the realization that they will be left to their own devices and abilities and the ensuing recognition of the fact that they are wholly unprepared. Denial is easier.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 12:09:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mortech:
Originally Posted By warlord:
Originally Posted By Wadman: Isn't it ironic how non-gun people like to poke fun of the "gun nut." But when they contemplate an emergency situation, the "gun nut" is who they want to be with.
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I remember during the '92 L.A. riots, certain people called the owner of a So. Calif. gun manufacturing firm to give them a gun without any waiting period and background check becaue the wolves were at the door, but she had to tell'em "sorry, no deal, I could go to prison for 20 years, it is a federal offense."
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This also reminds me of a story from the 92 riots , its seems that Mr Schartzennegger's rabid anti-gun neighbors came knocking at his door in order to ask if they could borrow some firearms from him . You'd think that they would have learned .
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From what I have read, same thing at Chuck Heston's house, his famous line was "Sorry, they are all being used." I believe the news media has forgotten, but I believe the question was asked of him why do you have so many guns, Heston's reply was something like "I have more than what I need, but not as many as I would like."
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 12:25:05 PM EDT
I have two phrases I use to describe those that can't or won't accept that they are responsible for their own lives. "Eaten by wolves" - these are the individuals that, left to their own devices in the world all our ancestors came from, would have been devoured by wolves...and deserve it. "Chopped up into little pieces and fed to the wolves in order to domesticate them" - these are the individuals that are so ill prepared and misguided as to be a danger to their community...and their only useful purpose. I'm joking a bit here...but after countless thousands (if not millions...no need to offend christian or darwinists alike) of generations of fighting to be the big bad predator on the block, I have no intention of passing that hat to anyone but my children. Tatjana...if you are here and it happens...you're welcome at our place. Any particular caliber preferred?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 1:46:50 PM EDT
I tend to think like Raf; There are a lot of quiet people that keep their means to themselves. I prefer to not let my neighbors know what I have stored in and around my house, since I'm pretty sure I'm the only one on my street that stocks up for 'unusual circumstances', I'd rather not have the neighborhood knocking on my door looking for help. People in the cities are going to have a really, really bad time should the Sh*t hit the Fan... but I believe that the rural areas will adapt reasonably well.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 2:39:00 PM EDT
what gov't agency do you think does a good job?".
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The government will do its Job in the event of a SHTF. Local,State, and Federal Authorities will all do there jobs exactly as they are told. So the biggest problem I see with peoples SHTF plans is they fail to take into account exactly what will happen in the event of an emergency. I advise you to read up on those agencies in charge plans for these scenario's. Because if the SHTF and you stay put these agencies are going to have a major impact on your goings on! period. Been there done that, end of story. I am not saying that is good or bad, that is just the way it is. Ben
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 3:01:26 PM EDT
How many people did the Government agencies trusted with "security" protect on 9/11/01? How many crimes are PREVENTED by law enforcement? Its like asking how many injuries are prevented by paramedics... Our Government agencies are entirely reactionary. Police show up AFTER the crime. The only proactive way to insure individual safety, protection or defense is for the individual to be trained and prepared to defend themselves. That goes double for SHTF. If you aren't thinking about your needs and working toward meeting them then you aren't even following the GOVERNMENT'S own advice: - [url]www.fema.gov/library/emfdwtr.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 3:09:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gunbert: I tend to think like Raf; There are a lot of quiet people that keep their means to themselves. I prefer to not let my neighbors know what I have stored in and around my house, since I'm pretty sure I'm the only one on my street that stocks up for 'unusual circumstances', I'd rather not have the neighborhood knocking on my door looking for help.
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My suggestion is selectively plan/co-ordinate with your neighbors. Of course you wouldn't to tell'em about your hardware etc, that will probably freaked them out, but other stuff you might need in an emergnecy. I usually try to a neighborhood watch meeting everyone so often to see what's up.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 3:44:04 PM EDT
People in my family (including my Mom) called me after 09.11.01 to ask about what kind of weapons I would recommend because I'm the "gun guy" in the family. That's all well and good, but to my way of thinking, if it took something like that to wake you up to the fact that, in the final analysis, you and you alone are responsible for the defense of your family, person and possessions, you're way behind the curve. The city where I live has 11 policemen. The odds are too long that one would be turning the corner just as someone was kicking in my front door, and to expand on tatjana's thought, the stakes are too high. I posted [url=www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=96545]here[/url] a couple of months ago about a lady who referred to a burglar/murderer who had been operating her neighborhood as "a wolf among the sheep," without apparently realizing or minding that that metaphor identified her as one of the sheep. That seems like an awfully fatalistic attitude to me, I can tell you. As Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch says, "I may get killed with my own gun, but he’s gonna have to beat me to death with it, ‘cause it’s going to be empty." Sorry to kind of swerve off-topic a bit. We now return you to your regular SHTF thread, already in progress.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 3:44:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 3:55:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:12:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KyCruffler: This is simply a symptom that the federal government's desire to ever expand it's power, and diminish our personal freedoms, by convincing the people that in times of crisis the government will be there to protect them. This seems to be very attractive to a great many people because it relieves them of the responsibility for their own safety and the safety of their families. It seems to me that if any thoughtful person took time to consider this rationally it would be readily apparent that, should the SHTF, government resources would be so over whelmed that we would essentially be on our own, at least for several days or weeks. Look to you own safety and don't expect the government to do it for you!
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You are correct in your statement. However, it goes further than that. It is a matter of law that the police have no obligation to protect an individual, rather they are to maintain public order. In the LA riots, the police were pulled back ostensibly because the powers that be felt continued presence or actual arrests would have made the situation worse. I don't agree with that, but that's the basic reasoning. They may indeed have been overwhelmed, as I agree would be the case in any widespread problem, but they were on legal footing. There was also a case about 15 years ago, not sure exactly of the time and reference, but it occurred in Washington DC. Eliminating a lot of detail which would not alter the case, just to keep it short, woman who had been raped sued the police for failing to protect her. They claimed to have been responding to some other case, even though she called twice. End result was it went all the way to the US Supreme court, which ruled that the police had no individual obligation. Good argument for those who would say the police will protect you and you don't need to be responsible yourself. Check up on the details. Yes, I'm too lazy.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:31:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rjroberts: In the LA riots, the police were pulled back ostensibly because the powers that be felt continued presence or actual arrests would have made the situation worse. I don't agree with that, but that's the basic reasoning. They may indeed have been overwhelmed, as I agree would be the case in any widespread problem, but they were on legal footing.
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Yep, that was faulty reasoning, but that was the LAPD's past experience. They didn't have enough officers to control the situation, so they sat around while people's livihoods and lives went up in smoke. Those that protected themselves got by relatively unscathed, but then others lost 10-20 years of their lives, because the L.A. city Council deemed there were too many liquor stores and automobile repair shops in the area and were denied a building permit, so those folks lost it all. But some people never learn because it didn't happen to them personally.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 5:21:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 6:29:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 7:15:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 7:33:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wadman: Isn't it ironic how non-gun people like to poke fun of the "gun nut." But when they contemplate an emergency situation, the "gun nut" is who they want to be with.
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I had a not so close liberal/non-prepared family member before y2k mention that they were going to find me when the SHTF. I asked her what made her think I wanted to be found and what was she bringing to the party. She gave me the funniest look. [:)]
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:40:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ColonelKlink:
Originally Posted By Mortech: This also reminds me of a story from the 92 riots , its seems that Mr Schartzennegger's rabid anti-gun neighbors came knocking at his door in order to ask if they could borrow some firearms from him . You'd think that they would have learned .
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Arnold is pro gun?
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NO. During his pondering of a gubernatorial run in kalifornia he said: "assault weapons- I am definitely against them". Anyone that wants to deny me the right to keep and bear arms is a terrorist. I am glad his movies have been failing at the box office.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:02:47 AM EDT
Here's another irony: Just because someone owns firearms doesn't necessarily mean he's pro-gun. This is particularly true of the "elite" of our society (I used the term elite very loosely).
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 3:54:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rem_700: They call me a gun freak and paranoid for owning several guns. Did 9-11 not wake anybody up? Seems everyone is lulled back to sleep already.
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Do what you need to do and keep quiet about your guns at work. The weenies will never agree or change their minds. Im my neighborhood here in Nazi Jersey, sometimes the weenies will talk about what they have or don't have and what they will do in an emergency. I just listen. They don't have guns so I know where to go to get what I need if the time comes that I need it.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 4:16:43 PM EDT
Lets see...BIG gunshow here in Richmond this weekend.... what do I want to buy..besides ammo...can never have enough ammo
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 5:33:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord:
Originally Posted By Gunbert: I tend to think like Raf; There are a lot of quiet people that keep their means to themselves. I prefer to not let my neighbors know what I have stored in and around my house, since I'm pretty sure I'm the only one on my street that stocks up for 'unusual circumstances', I'd rather not have the neighborhood knocking on my door looking for help.
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My suggestion is selectively plan/co-ordinate with your neighbors. Of course you wouldn't to tell'em about your hardware etc, that will probably freaked them out, but other stuff you might need in an emergency. I usually try to a neighborhood watch meeting everyone so often to see what's up.
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That's definately the way to go, if you can. But in my area I just don't think it would work. My neighbors (the ones I've met) are not the type that would take this kind of thing seriously. They're part of the populace that can't think beyond their next car payment or the next outing to the dog park, as far as I can tell. Then again, maybe I'm antisocial 'cause I mostly keep to myself.
Link Posted: 6/4/2002 2:03:10 PM EDT
I quietly plan and prepare, publicly i am stockpiling beer and lots of it so if nothing else I can get drunk and cry or do my wife.
Link Posted: 6/4/2002 5:06:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/4/2002 5:40:48 PM EDT by drjarhead]
Same experiences. People think I'm a little crazy(Well, no shit. I am an ex-Marine. Gotta be a little crazy to join in the first place)but EVERYONE I know says they're coming to my place when TSHTF. I hope they can make it through the concertina wire and claymores[}:D] My mom just gives me this look when she sees my guns. However, she live within miles of 2 separate nuke plants, each with 2 reactors. She just got a letter from the gov't telling her to buy potassium iodide. All of a sudden she's taking it seriously and I gave her a handful of Cipro this past weekend "just in case".
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