Hey Eric,
Appreciate your posts, but on this I think you are mistaken.

NO MILLENIUM!?!?!?

Do you believe in the first coming of Christ?  Of all the prophecies concerning the coming messiah/king, only one third were fullfilled in Christ's first coming- the suffering savior prophecies.  More than 2 times as many await fulfillment.  God made dozens and dozens of unconditional promises to David, Isaiah, Micah, Zechariah, so on and so forth that have not been fulfilled yet.

The only way to get around the 1000 year reign of Christ in scripture is to spiritualize text and that is what ammillenialists do.  You must be catholic, Lutheran, or Presbyterian, or something along those lines.  

You should ABSOLUTELY quit being so dogmatic about no kingdom. hehe

And as far as the children born to saved millenial saints, that just proves the depravity of man.  You can't get to heaven on the coat tails of your parents, grand parents, or church.  All must trust in Christ as savior from thier sins, even the children born in the millenium. What, do you think there aren't sinners in the millenium?  Why must Christ rule with a rod of iron as king?  Because there will still be sinners sinning.  That doesn't end until Christ makes the new heaven and earth after the Great White throne judgment.  

All who enter the millenium are saved jews and gentiles who survive the tribulation, but they have children who have to trust Christ just like they did.  Most probably do, but over 1000 years, many don't, and when Satan is loosed from his 1000 year jail sentence in the pit, he finds a group of rebels waiting for him for one last attempt to bring down God's plan to vindicate Himself for all that He is.

Even with a physical Christ-King on a physical throne, man's depravity is proven for what it is.  None naturally seek Him, None naturally want Him.  It must be by His grace that man can be saved.  Even in a perfect millenial enviroment, our salvation rests totally on Jesus Christ.

Got scripture for all this if interested.

Appreciate your presence on the board

patsue

Sorry, [b]patsue[/b], we don't need Jesus on the Throne to convince anyone of the sinful nature of man.

I've got to run, but let us deal with this later.

I'm not against the idea of such a Kingdom, it may be just another mystery hidden from the Lord's people, as the Church was hidden from Israel!

Eric The(Adios)Hun[>]:)]

"Sorry, patsue, we don't need Jesus on the Throne to convince anyone of the sinful nature of man"

Methinks you missed my point.

try again

Pat(enjoysthisalot)sue

Eric, did you miss Revelations 20?

[B]1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.[/B]

Ok, according to Revelations 20:1-3, Satan is bound up for 1000 years during the Millenial Kingdom.

[B]4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.[/B]

Here Satan is once again allowed to deceive those he can to once again challenge God.

[B]
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/B]

It looks pretty straighforward to me.

God Bless Texas

[b]GodBlessTexas[/b], if there is one thing for certain that I can say about the Book of Revelation, it's that I have yet to hear anyone give a 'unified interpretation' of that particular Book at all.

And trust me, I have heard them all. As a matter of fact, I taught this Book as a Wednesday Night Class at a Church of Christ in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, for about two years.

Most of the folks in my class were college and graduate students in other fields, but we all would put our heads together and try to cover all of the bases.

Just when we thought that something could be nailed down, specifically, to a particular event, we would come to the naming of the kings in Chapter 17, and, forgive the phrase, all hell would bust loose!

It must be understood that Revelation was first meant to be understood by a contemporary audience by John and the Holy Spirit. The seven churches, no matter whether they might represent the 'Seven Ages of The Church' or some other matter, were in fact churches that were founded and active when John received his Revelation from Jesus Christ!

As a matter of fact, we know the histories of these seven churches so well, that we can confidently point out how each message to each church can be historically explained.

So it is obvious that when John mentions a Sixth King who is alive, yet kills by the sword and is killed by the sword, he is, in fact, referring to the Emperor Nero.

As a matter of fact in Hebrew, the consonants of Nero's title, [b]Nrwn Qsr[/b], add up to 666, precisely!  That alone almost seals the ID! But there is more.

If you look in your Bible notes at this point, some old manuscripts replace the number 666, with 616, and most scholars simply thought that it was the slip of the scribes.

If, however, you use the Latin phrase for Nero Caesar, and count the numbers, they add up to 616, and not 666!  It surely is no mere coincidence that 616 is the numerical value of "Nero Caesar," when spelled in Hebrew by transliterating it from its more widely familiar Latin spelling.

So what are we to think?

And to pile up upon all this luggage the added doctrine of a Millennial Kingdom, in which Jesus sits on David's Throne and yet sin abounds in this New Jerusalem, is ludicrous!

Remember the creed from Reformed Christianity which warns us to reject "Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment", and, well, you get the picture.

We shall talk of this at length bye and bye.

Eric The(Perplexed)Hun[>]:)]

PS - the good news - it's not necessary for us to believe in anything concerning the End Times! Just hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized, and continue in His Goodness!

"PS - the good news - it's not necessary for us to believe in anything concerning the End Times! Just hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized, and continue in His Goodness!"

Uh...  I thought all you had to do was place your faith in Christ as your personal savior.

I agree with the hear, believe, repent (if repent means to change your mind about your sin)

But to add baptism if you are refering to water baptism would not be a prerequisite to being saved.

pat(believeonthelordJesusChristandthoushaltbesaved)sue

Ditto

While I consider myself pre-trib, I am not dogmatic about it.

More important is your relationship with the Savior, and your earnest desire to share His Grace with others.

Post from patsue -

I surely didn't add water baptism to the list, He did. You know, the Big Guy! Check it out!

[b]James 2:19 -[/b]

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[b]Matthew 7:22 -[/b]

[red][b]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[/b][/red]

[b]Mark 16:16 -[/b]

[red][b]He that believeth [u]and is baptized shall be saved[/u]; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/b][/red]

Eric The(CheckItOut!)Hun[>]:)]

Patsue, you have opened up a hornets nest with Eric the (striving for righteousness)Hun.

[b]bsouth401[/b] - you got me pegged, all right!

[b]Matthew 5:20 -[/b]

[red][b]For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.[/b][/red]

Hmmmm. Sounds like you need to be righteous to me.

Eric The(TrimYourLampsForTheWeddingFeast)Hun[>]:)]

Darn, here it is 10:45 and I come across this post.
I was nearly convinced that the Rapture would come before the tribulation after reading the "Left Behind" fiction series by Jerry Jenkins and Tim Lahaye, until I came across the parable of the wheat and the weeds while going through  "Experiencing God" (I would recommend this to anyone).

The Parable of the Weeds

Matthew 13:24-30
 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
"The owner"s servants came to him and said, "Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
"' An enemy did this," he replied.
"The servants asked him, "Do you want us
to go and pull them up?'
"'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"


The Parable of the Weeds Explained
Matthew 13:36-43
Then he left the crowd and went into the house.
His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are the angels.
"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.


I would have to say that these passages make it clear about  the return of Christ but then I have been wrong before(at least one other time, but I cannot remember it).

My motto is "Pray for Pre, but prepare for Post".


Lee "ready to go " Johnson

ETH, lighten up man.

I don't care to get into another pissing contest with you.

Let's just agree to disagree and move on, OK?

Mr. Hun, I do not mean you any disrespect and wish we could just get around this and be friends. Can I have a hug?

PS, I'm not a homo.

James 2:19 -

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James is showing that saving faith is more then just intellectual knowledge of Jesus Christ.  Demons recognized Christ several times in the gospels.  Paul when addressing the Philipian jailor was certainly talking about more then intellectual knowledge.  The jailor just asked him, "what must I do to be saved?"  Something a demon would never do.


Matthew 7:22 -

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Look at the context Eric!!!  Jesus is talking about false Prophets here.  They were NEVER saved in the first place.


Mark 16:16 -

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

What is the condition of being condemned here?  NOT BELIEVING!!!  hehe

Matthew 5:20 -

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

You bet you have to be righteous.  But not self righteousness like the Pharisee!!!  You have to get your righteousness from something other then yourself to enter the kingdom of God.  Guess where we get that righteousness?  From Jesus Christ.  NOT FROM YOURSELF!!!

 THat is the whole point of the sermon on the mount from which you have quoted.  If we can't keep the law of Moses, how in the world can we keep the sermon on the mount?  It is even more difficult then the law.  NOpe can't do it.



Pat(IwantahugandI'mnotahomoeither)sue

I think it incredibly egotistical and maniacal that a omnipotent supreme being would need to make his children go through tribulations.

Well shiver me old rotting timbers.

I gotta agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with ETH's first post in this thread (I haven't fully read the rest of them)

Knowing how rare it is for me to agree with ETH, this here is a momnetous occasion - a DEFINITE calendar marker event.

Well said Eric. Well said. And well argued.

bugsplat-

I'll confess here I'm an endtimes illiterate. the whole mess is too subjective for me - I prefer to deal in concrete terms.

But lemme share with you my current perspectives:

1. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matthew 24: 36  The timing of end time events is the prerogative of God alone, and it is apparent from Scripture He did NOT intend to tell us in advance.

2. EricTheHun's logic seems very sound to me. Re-read his first post. Why WOULD God exempt us from sufferring when millions of others in hundreds of other generations He did not???

3. Scripturally, the sufferring of beleivers is something God CAUSES for His own glory. What more glorious to the Father than for the world, the devil, and the angels to see beleivers saying, like Job did - "Tho He slay me, yet will I trust Him..." Life is about God and His glory - NOT me avoiding sufferring, ESPECIALLY when my sufferring brings Him Glory.

4. The concept of a pre-trib rapture was popularized around the same time dispensationalism was. Together, they act to get the "church" out of the way so God can do something cool with Israel. While beyond the scope of this discussion, its my opinion that this teaching shows a misunderstanding of WHOM God considers Israel at this time, it renders the "church" for whom Christ died as a second class citizen, and it diminishes Christ as ONLY ONE plan of God, and means of salvation. Hence, I've got a built in bias AGAINST the pre-trib position. (Let me put on my Nomex suit before I continue....

(pause....there.....[:D]  )

4. I lean toward the POSSIBILITY of a mid-trib rapture for a SINGLE reason - "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matt 22: 42 I take this to be speaking of the great Tribulation, which God will "shorten" for the elects sake. So MAYBE we have a mid-Trib event.

But like I say, my eyes glaze over during Biblke studies of the end times, as I lack the capacity for speculative Biblical interpretation. I wil NEVER argue or separate frm someone SOLELY on their interpretation of end times events (as long as they violate no other fundamental Scriptural teaching) I think there's enuf CONCRETE commands of God for me to concern myself with that I need not go "where angels fear to tread...."

I know this isn't of much help, but its everything I know on the subject.

(Lemme go re-check and MAKE SURE I agree with Eric - YUP - amazing.  [}:D]  )

Well, I've always thought it incredibly egotistical and maniacal that a [strike]omnipotent supreme being [/strike] car purchaser would need to make his [strike]children [/strike] Ferrari Testarossa go through [strike]tribulations[/strike] hard accelerations, infrequent oil changes, spillage of drinks on its seats, hard cornering and wheel-locking deceleration.
[}:D]

Unless of course he were to let me try it for a while.

[:D]