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Posted: 5/12/2002 8:15:24 AM EDT
OK experts, here's the story. My son got a summons to appear for failure to yeild to a traffic signal. He was on the shoulder of the road to let a school bus pass when he saw that it was stopping. Before the bus was stopped and before the stop sign was deployed, my son pulled out onto the road and went around the bus. This happened about 1/2 mile out of town. The driver found my son in a diner; leaving a busload of crying kids in the parking lot, and proceded to shout at him about passing a bus with its stopsign out. He called the town police and demanded that my son be hauled off in handcuffs. That didn't happen but he did get a ticket or summons to appear in front ot the judge. My question is can the police of a small town write a ticket on the accusation of a citizen? The traffic signal wasn't deployed when my son drove onto the road. I did some research on Tennessee laws and it looks like it says that a violation has to be witnessed by a police officer, fireman, or transportation inspector. The official definition of a schoolbus driver is chauffeur and there is no mention of this term having arresting authority or authority to ticket. Kind of a he said, he said circumstance. Any expert opinions out there? Thanks in advance. Oh yeah, one more thing. I completely believe my sons version of the incident. He has an excelent driving record and is a model citizen. The busdriver on the other hand has a reputation of intimidation and antagonism and is lawsuit happy.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 8:28:21 AM EDT
Here in NJ, a citizen can absolutely swear out a complaint against a citizen. I did this once many years ago when some buthole ran a red light and forced me to swerve off the road and into some bushes in a deserted intersection at about 2 am. (Unfortunately for him, I was in a Mustang GT and quickly caught up to his arse and got his plate number) The police had me sign the traffic ticket and was exactly as you said: my word against his word. I did have a passenger in the car as a witness so I won and he got many fines but... Unfortunately, at least given the attitudes in this state, the word of the school bus driver *might* be more impactful on the judge. Its still not right but, you know how it goes. Given that passing a school bus is a pretty serious offense (again, here in my state), I would get a lawyer. Good luck, I hope it works out for you!
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 9:56:32 AM EDT
I was told by a police office that a citizen can indeed "write" another a ticket but the cop does the actual writing but the citizen does the "prosecution". Before you go to court, get your ducks in a row: get the bus drivers driving record, it's a public record & available to anyone who asks. Don't let them BS you that it can't be given out. It'll have all of his disciplinary actions, if any, & his driving infractions, if any. Show the court his record & then your son's record. Should be a major point in your favor. Good luck. What TN town is this, if I may ask?
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 10:35:50 AM EDT
You son should of stopped, He is just like the rest of the red light runners, it seems to me. Sounds like impatient son, He's your son so you will deny it. but you will rescue his but. Let him pay it, and hopefully he will learn. He KNEW the bus was stopping but he did it anyway, ask him the whole truth. GG
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 10:46:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun Guru: You son should of stopped, He is just like the rest of the red light runners, it seems to me. Sounds like impatient son, He's your son so you will deny it. but you will rescue his but. Let him pay it, and hopefully he will learn. He KNEW the bus was stopping but he did it anyway, ask him the whole truth. GG
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While I agree that kids don't always tell the truth to their parents I whole heartedly disagree with the above statement. If Pangea trust his kids then that is enough for me to believe his story. I also trust my kids, it is a bond we developed over the years. Without trust you have nothing. I also believe that alot of bus stopping laws are stupid. Why should a bus be able to stop traffic in both directions on any damn street it wants?? Usually the driver doesn't even get out of the vehicle and help the kids cross. All in all school buses are a huge waste of tax payer dollars that mainly benefit those poor kids who's parents dont even pay taxes. Ban the bus I say. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 10:55:12 AM EDT
I don't know if he passed a stopped bus or not. He could pass if the bus is stopping before the sign or red lights go on. Even itf the yellow lights are flashing he could pass. The bus must be at a full stop with red lighs or stop sign on. I know usually they put the sign out and lights on before they come to a complete stop. If thats the case your son was wrong. Now my next question is why the hell did the driver abandon the kids? Was there a matron on the bus also? If not that driver is in deep DO-DO. If there are witnesses in the place he stopped, saying the bus driver acted irrational or not in a manner showing proper attitude I would bring that up.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 10:55:47 AM EDT
All in all school buses are a huge waste of tax payer dollars that mainly benefit those poor kids who's parents dont even pay taxes. Sgtar15
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Show us proof this statement is true.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 10:57:55 AM EDT
I've had too many kids lying right to their fathers face about something many people witnessed and have the father take his son's crap word to buy that stuff anymore. I'd be willing to bet the kid did pass the bus illegally...
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 11:06:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 11:14:04 AM EDT
in texas, a police officer must see it.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 11:20:04 AM EDT
further more i would attempt to file on the bus driver for harassment, stalking, and whatever else you can. then i would inform the school that he has a habit of leaving the kids unattended in a area other than the school or drop off area. sure you son prob should have stoped, just like i should learn to spell, but no one is perfect so oh well, what can you do. innicent untill proven guilty keep in mind. tell the driver to prove it. some one once told me Deny, demand proof, and make counter accusations.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 11:22:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Originally Posted By Gun Guru: Why should a bus be able to stop traffic in both directions on any damn street it wants?? Ban the bus I say. Sgtar15
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where i am from if a esplenade (sp) seperates both sides, you dont have to stop on the other side.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 11:26:05 AM EDT
In Arizona, A police officer must see it. That goes for any civil traffic violation or petty offense.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 11:29:23 AM EDT
As far as I know, in NYC a traffic violation [b]MUST BE WITNESSED[/b] by the summonsing officer. I don't know how it works everywhere else in the United States.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 11:34:44 AM EDT
Where I live the only group who have worse driving habits than cops are bus drivers. I'm regularly passed by school buses, in school zones, no less. I've called the superintendent of schools, but it doesn't seem to help. Cops sit in the medians in front of the schools and watch the buses steam through. Eddie Eddie
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 11:37:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: While I agree that kids don't always tell the truth to their parents I whole heartedly disagree with the above statement. If Pangea trust his kids then that is enough for me to believe his story. I also trust my kids, it is a bond we developed over the years. Without trust you have nothing. I also believe that alot of bus stopping laws are stupid. Why should a bus be able to stop traffic in both directions on any damn street it wants?? Usually the driver doesn't even get out of the vehicle and help the kids cross. [red]All in all school buses are a huge waste of tax payer dollars that mainly benefit those poor kids who's parents dont even pay taxes.[/red] Ban the bus I say. Sgtar15
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I find it scary when I agree to what sgtar15 said above.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 11:55:42 AM EDT
The bus stops traffic in both directions because some kids need to cross the street after they get out.In N.Y. a cop must witness the violation.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 12:04:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 12:35:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2002 12:36:33 PM EDT by prk]
Was this in the morning or the afternoon? If it was in the morning, it doesn't matter (to me) if the bus was stopped or just approaching a stop. Kids on the other side of the road/street might well run out to meet the bus. Even dropping off, it's too easy for someone to look away for a moment and think a bus moving slowly - with the warnings operating - is stopping, when in fact it just dropped someone off. I know of several accidents in which a student got clobbered during a bus stop. Maybe you should have a talk with the son about being extra cautious and making the safer decision, even if it gets him to his destination 30 seconds later. Where I grew up, it was a violation to pass a schoolbus when the warning signals were on, whether or not the bus was in motion. And for those of you who think schoolbuses are a waste of money, you must be thinking integration buses. Many of the kids on my bus were up before dawn doing chores, had no practical way to get to school 4-5 miles away, unless you think it makes sense to stop the farm and have 30-40 cars on the road instead of one bus.....
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 12:46:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ohaiclan: In Arizona, A police officer must see it. That goes for any civil traffic violation or petty offense.
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A civil Traffic violation under Title 28, doesn't have to be witnessed by a police officer for a citation to be issued. A citizen can file a complaint regarding a civil traffic violation. It is the reporting citizens responsibility to present the case, unless the local county attorney who is assiged to the court agrees to handle the matter on behalf of the state. Either way, the court doesn't care (especially in the case of JP courts), as the court is given part of the fine if the judge rules that the individual is responsible. After all, the people sitting in the Photo Radar vans (they are called as witnesses if the citation is contested) are not Sworn officers.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 12:47:31 PM EDT
Police routinely issue traffic summonses in NYS based on the physical evidence at accident scenes and/or supporting depositions of witnesses.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 1:49:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 1:57:12 PM EDT
Be sure to drag it all into court. Be sure that the bus driver is forced to APPEAR in court and to testify. Get a lawyer to represent your son in court (even though it is distasteful and expensive). Try to subpoena the kids into the courtroom to see what they say. Especially about why they were crying in the parking lot -- did the bus driver go berserk and start screaming while blasting down the road chasing your son? See if you can get the kids' parents involved -- have any of them had "incidents" with this driver? Have their kids had any "problems" with him, such as theft, unfounded anger, inappropriate touching, or whatever??
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 2:02:57 PM EDT
This happened about 1/2 mile west of Huntland Tennessee, BobCole. The bus wasn't stopped and my son was pulling off of the shoulder of the road. GunGuru, you don't know my kids. Never been to the principals office, never recieved a detention slip, no tickets, honor role, deans list, and honors society. You and AR-15 fan must have some rat bag kids running around your trailer park, huh? Too bad all you know is trashy kids. Maybe you failed them somehow. Judging a person by a few lines on an internet post must be a gift from god. You should cultivate it into something usefull instead of running your dicksucker about something you don't know about. You have a nice day now.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 2:05:16 PM EDT
The whole stopping traffic both ways law for school buses can be a good thing. On small country roads it allows kids to cross the road to their house without being hit. The problem comes when a bus stops on a 6 lane high traffic road in suburban areas, it causes a huge traffic jam at every stop. Also, I've seen buses stop, and then not wait for the kids to cross the street. They zoom off leaving the kids to go to cross without supervision on high traffic streets, which is what the law is supposed to prevent.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 6:25:07 PM EDT
I drove a school bus in ohio, so these are ohio laws, most states are similar but a little different. I drove 3 years ago and only for a year. I have ohio cdl and school bus books for the tests I took and what not. Local dmv should be able to get you whatever pretty cheap. The stopping traffic both ways is only legal on roads where kids are legally allowed to cross. A divided road, with those medians and what not, no stopy. Kids also can not cross a 4 lane highway or major road. Bus has to make a run up and down it to legally get em all. Something about double yellow lines as well, but I am having brain fade. On a winding two lane highway backroad, you would need to stop. On 4 lane stuff lack of sight is bad. I also have to have the kids cross in front of the bus, and they have to wait for me to make sure it is safe for them to cross. They watch me in the drivers seat and there is a set arm movement telling them it is safe to cross. Most cage drivers do not know the laws and it is amazing how they get mad when I blow by a school bus legally. I have had them come up to me at a gas station and say they are calling the cops. None do though, I always smile and tell em to go ahead. I was only adult on a bus, regardless of where I was I could not leave my bus with kids on it. Even on school property I had to be right outside the door if there was a problem, unless there was another adult who accepted the authority. Parents on a field trip ain't it, has to be a teacher, coach, or some employee of the district. So going in and yelling at your kid would get me a written reprimand. I was the authority on the bus even with teachers and what not on the bus. So dictator complex can be a problem. I can call in your license and get a cop to write you a ticket and give it to you. But it is my word against yours and the kids are bad witnesses as I may bribe them with priveleges to be on my side. I have a great record, but the judges or whoever usually gave a warning as there is little proof. I stopped bothering with it real fast. Now a dirty way to get at kids at the high school who could drive was to talk to the principle of the high school. Usually if the kid had other problems we could get their parking on premises permit revoked. No car parking near this school ment a long walk or a tow as there was little street parking in the area. On my bus and all the buses in the fleet of the district you hit a button as you came to a stop and this activated the yellow lights only. No red lights or stop sign. Once I came to a stop I opened the door, this made the red lights come on and the stop sign come out. So if the bus was moving, check this out as it is illegal to drive with the door open usually, with kids on the bus the district would most likly fire the driver. Check local laws and state laws. Most likely there is little need for this to go very far. Of course after dealing with the superintendant and school board, I will give any school the complete shaft when and where possable. They have a major dictator complex and need to be put in their place often. do not agree to let them decide something. No mediation is ok unless you have a real judge or someone doing it, the school board will often side with the driver. Should also check about driver's union.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 6:25:08 PM EDT
Hey, tell me about those bus drivers. Out here, even the school district won't crack down on them. In my younger days, I complained about the driver on my route once. Somehow my name got back to him. He never let me forget it, even after the town got incorporated and he went from barber to half of the police department.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 7:02:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 7:36:44 PM EDT
I rode a bus to school from 5th through 11th grade. Kids don't cry on a bus. If you has said rant, rave, jeer, I would have believed everything you said. When you said cry you are bending the truth to make the bus driver sound like a bad guy. When I rode the bus the drivers had radio sets and would call in a description of the car and the plate number if they could get it. Then it was up to the police to arrest and presecute. Have your son get his day in court in front of his accusors. I bet the kids like the buss driver just fine and will make fin witnesses.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 8:14:44 PM EDT
TommyBrown, this asshole busdriver threatens the children with the police if they talk on the bus. He has a real hardon for my nephew who rides his bus and threatens the children for any infraction. I'm talking about a town with 3 cops and about 600 people. This guy has a big fish/little pond syndrome real bad. Bend the truth? I almost thought you were implying that I was telling a lie. You don't know Jack about this place do you? The kids hate this prick but the town is a small one that is quite clannish. We are outsiders that don't fit in because I don't work at the sawmill or cotton gin. They think were rich because I work in aerospace, so they hate us. No big deal. I hate them right back.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 8:24:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun Guru: You son should of stopped, He is just like the rest of the red light runners, it seems to me. Sounds like impatient son, He's your son so you will deny it. but you will rescue his but. Let him pay it, and hopefully he will learn. He KNEW the bus was stopping but he did it anyway, ask him the whole truth. GG
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I disagree, busdrivers can be the biggest sons of bee itches sometimes, in regards to their stupid little stop sign. They expect all the cars on the road to anticipate their every incoherent move and if they fail to, they immediately call the police, radio to the other bus drivers, honk, yell, ad nauseum. Even when they were just "thinking" of putting out the sign, but hadn't yet and they noticed a car that didn't stop, plus the driver did not get out and bow down to him. Those dumbasses usually turn on their yellow flashing lights, and either you are curteous and slow down to stop, only to watch them keep going and pass you in the other direction, while you sit there like a moron, OR they immediately pull the stop sign with no regard to the fact that people have to see it first, then react by stopping *IF* they have enough room. Ban stupid bus drivers, for the children.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 8:31:40 PM EDT
It may depend on the state as well. Although I am sure that 99.9% of them are oblivious to the fact (thank god), in Virginia while operating a bus they are legally "Conservators of the Peace" i.e. COP's.
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