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Posted: 5/11/2002 6:51:44 PM EDT
Trying to pick some brains on this. This "friend" of mine has been unemployed for several months and after not even receiving acknowledgement from potential employers, he gets itchy to get back to work and is interviewed at a major "warehouse store." Halfway through the two-day orientation for the company, the manager says that there are zero weapons allowed in the workplace. Furthermore, "For those of you who might be hunters, you will not be allowed to have your firearms in your vehicles while you are at work either. And don't think you can leave a firearm in your car, park it off property and walk in to work. It's not allowed." This "friend" has a CCW permit and an absolutely clean as a whistle record. He lives in a state where Open Carry is allowed as well as CW. One of the employees asked, "what if we see a patron in the store who has a gun? What do we do?" Manager says that is allowable because it isn't against the law, but that the manager should be contacted to help encourage the customer to conceal his firearm so as to not make others upset. #1. Is it legal to prohibit an employee from carrying a firearm when there is no federal, state or local law broken? #2. Can an employer prohibit firearms from being legally stored in a vehicle? #3. Should the "friend" carry anyway and risk losing the job? #4. If said job was lost, is there room for a lawsuit to be brought against the company? I don't understand why the company will not openly prohibit patrons from carrying, but feel free to prohibit the employees (not that I feel that anyone should be prohibited, but if someone says you can't protect yourself at work, then they damn well better have top-notch security to protect the employees). Also, I feel that something like this might warrant national attention......... Only thing is..... I need the job. Thoughts? Comments?
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 7:15:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2002 7:24:25 PM EDT by GreenTalon]
I'm not a Lawyer so my advise is just that. . . advice. [b] #1. Is it legal to prohibit an employee from carrying a firearm when there is no federal, state or local law broken? [/b] Unfortunately they can prohibit firearms (both employee's and patrons) However, its not illegal for you to carry there; its just against their company policy. Ie: you won't go to jail for it, just fired. Unless your state has a law prohibiting carry where signs are posted banning their presence, then you'd be FUBAR. [b]#2. Can an employer prohibit firearms from being legally stored in a vehicle?[/b] Yes it is legal to make a rule such as this, if you park on their property. BUT, who's gonna know? Are you or your friend going to let someone from the company search your car????? I'm sure as hell not going to, I'd make them fire me instead! Also, off-property parking they can't touch, no business can tell you what to do when off their property (except drugs, which you technically would be bringing on their property if you went to work with them in your blood/tissue). [b]#3. Should the "friend" carry anyway and risk losing the job?[/b] I might not carry, but the car would surely have a weapon in it. Thats what I did when I worked at Winn Dixie for 9 years. They have a similar policy and I had no trouble because I didn't tell anyone (Learned my lesson after a Glock was stolen from my car while at work) [b]#4. If said job was lost, is there room for a lawsuit to be brought against the company?[/b] There is always room to sue someone. You can sue your wife for not washing the laundry on time if you wish. Whether you would win or not is a totally different story. You probably wouldn't have a leg to stand-on in your stated case. Now if your store gets robbed and you get injured or killed, and you didn't have a gun on you because of company policy, I'd bet attorneys would be biting at the bit trying to get your case against the Company (even if it was your widow they'd have to swoon over). The real question is which is more important, having a job or being relatively secure in your ability to defend yourself? Just my .02 YMMV Steven L.
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 7:15:29 PM EDT
#1. in texas yes. #2. no. the parking lot is public property so if he does not sigh a "consent to search" at the time of hire they cant touch his truck. #3. his job and his CHL no. #4. you can always sue. but I would not waist my time. your going to be a "grocery clerk" (apocalypse now) not a security guard. if you cap a perp and a bystander the store is toast. my company has the same set of rules. it sucks but if I get capped at work and live I will sue the hell out of the company for not allowing me to protect myself at work.
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 7:15:50 PM EDT
The employer is a PRIVATE business and CAN ban weapons on his property, the same way a private citizen can ban you from bringing a weapon into his home. The SECOND applies ONLY to the Government/Congress from banning the citizens from owning weapons. If you have a LEGAL gun in your car and park OUTSIDE of the employer's property, the employer can not stop you from doing this.
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 7:20:08 PM EDT
1 - nope, they pay the rent, it's their private property, and as their imployee they can impose whatever rule they like. They can even make you wear dorky suspenders and a stupid hat if they like. 2 - Yes, see above. 3 - Depends. If he's sure he won't get caught, feels that he should for his own safety, and can recover if they can his butt, then by all means. I sure don't have a problem with it, but I don't pay his check either. 4 - Highly doubtful. As to the last parragraph in your post, they're smart enough to not bar the paying customers. Also, you have to realize that in their eyes they face a greater threat from an armed employee going bazerk on the boss-man for being fired or whathaveyou, than they feel safe by him being able to protect the store from criminals -for which they're insured anyway. To be honest, I'm not sure they're wrong, but I haven't done a study on that.
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 7:23:55 PM EDT
Good. It's settled. I'm suing my wife for not doing the laundry. I'm not going to be a grocery clerk. This whole thing kind of sucks. Haven't had to seek employment in over ten years. Kind of humbling to go from a respected Sergeant in the Army, to a peon. Thanks for the comments.
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 7:36:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RobertInMaine: #1. Is it legal to prohibit an employee from carrying a firearm when there is no federal, state or local law broken? #2. Can an employer prohibit firearms from being legally stored in a vehicle? #3. Should the "friend" carry anyway and risk losing the job? #4. If said job was lost, is there room for a lawsuit to be brought against the company?
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#1--Yes. #2--Yes. #3--Yes. #4--No.
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 7:37:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RobertInMaine: Good. It's settled. I'm suing my wife for not doing the laundry. I'm not going to be a grocery clerk. This whole thing kind of sucks. Haven't had to seek employment in over ten years. Kind of humbling to go from a respected Sergeant in the Army, to a peon. Thanks for the comments.
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Unless you were a member of Congress, you already were a peon.[;)]
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 8:00:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 308wood: #1. in texas yes. #2. no. the parking lot is public property so if he does not sigh a "consent to search" at the time of hire they cant touch his truck. #3. his job and his CHL no. #4. you can always sue. but I would not waist my time. your going to be a "grocery clerk" (apocalypse now) not a security guard. if you cap a perp and a bystander the store is toast. my company has the same set of rules. it sucks but if I get capped at work and live I will sue the hell out of the company for not allowing me to protect myself at work.
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No, the parking lot is private property, whomever rents the building rent right to the lot. The lot is for patrons. GG
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 4:43:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RobertInMaine: #3. Should the "friend" carry anyway and risk losing the job?
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1) Carry always. 2) If you carry completely concealed, nobody will ever know you are carrying. 3) If they specifically ask if you are carrying the answer is always "no". 4) Never tell anybody that you are carrying unless you trust them 100% (and not a percentage less). 5) If they find out that you are carrying, somewhere along the line rules #2, #3, and #4 was broken. 6) No job is ever more important than your personal security.
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 7:41:01 PM EDT
I am so pissed that I got suckered into the company. I was carrying through both interviews that I had and thought not much of it. Yes I can quit, but for a flexible schedule and the pay and benefits it's not bad. I was a little surprised to see the part about not being able to carry at work (I still can't believe it's constitutional), but when they said "...and for all you deer hunters who think you can leave a weapon in the vehicle, park in an adjacent parking lot, walk in, and think you are ok...... you will be terminated from employment." I felt that part went a little too far. Part of the reason for leaving the Army after so many years was to finally get some "freedom." I did consider a plan to leave my carry piece in the vehicle, but wouldn't that freakin' suck if it got stolen?!? Also wouldn't be a big deal if the place was just down the road, but it's not and due to the lateness I have to work and the parts of town I have to drive through.. Well. Whatever. Thanks all for the comments. It would appear that they are anti-gun/freedom unless you are purchasing something from them. By having two standards, I find that worse than being a totally anti company. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but there is not a damn company rule in the world that would keep a disgruntled employee from going nuts. I did start looking for another job already though. Wish me luck. Whatever. "Disgusted in Maine"
Link Posted: 5/12/2002 8:00:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2002 8:03:43 PM EDT by Kroagnon]
I was a little surprised to see the part about not being able to carry at work (I still can't believe it's constitutional)
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I can't believe the "assault rifle" ban is still on the books even though it's clearly unconstitutional.
, but when they said "...and for all you deer hunters who think you can leave a weapon in the vehicle, park in an adjacent parking lot, walk in, and think you are ok...... you will be terminated from employment." I felt that part went a little too far.
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Not only did that go too far but they can't legally enforce that, but they can fire you for it. Companies can fire you for anything and they will lie to do it. You don't carry, you don't have a firearm in your car. That's all they need to know. They won't know differently unless you give consent to search your person or your vehicle. Never do that.
Also wouldn't be a big deal if the place was just down the road, but it's not and due to the lateness I have to work and the parts of town I have to drive through.. Well. Whatever.
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You don't need a reason to carry, concealed or in your vehicle. It's your right. You don't have to justify it to anybody.
Thanks all for the comments. It would appear that they are anti-gun/freedom unless you are purchasing something from them. By having two standards, I find that worse than being a totally anti company. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but there is not a damn company rule in the world that would keep a disgruntled employee from going nuts. I did start looking for another job already though. Wish me luck.
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Anti-gun attitudes are everywhere in corporate America, you won't get too many jobs if you are looking for pro-gun only.I don't rememver the last job I had that didn't have something about "no guns" on company properly. Just nod to what they're saying, being at peace with the fact that you will continue to exercise your constitutional right to bear arms, knowing that you will least likely person at your company to be victimized by an armed disgruntled employee.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 3:48:47 AM EDT
This probably is another area in which the legal responses would be different were it something other than guns involved. Yes, many states with CCW/CWL type licenses allow the prohibition in a place of business. The "principle" used is "private property rights." I think that is an area which is wrongly applied and needs to be addressed legally in many of the states. I am not a lawyer, so I don't know the technicalities. But, businesses are running a public accommodation, quite different from your own private home. They are keeping out someone, who has committed no crime, and is doing (carrying his weapon) which is legal under the law. They do not seem to prohibit convicted felons from the store, for example, though I have seen stores with "no handguns" in the window. I simply don't do business with them. But, I think the law needs to be modified to take into account the public nature of the establishments. In many states, you cannot discriminate against someone based on race in a public accommodation, but you CAN in your private home. It would seem to me that while you can prohibit someone from your home for any reason, there would, or should, be a more substantial ground for such prohibition in a quasi-public area.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 5:22:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 7:40:52 AM EDT
Robert, your friend should not really feel terribly offended. If I am thinking of the same "wharehouse store" the loss prevention associates don't even carry weapons, only cuffs, those same LPs will be facing patrons/ shoplifters who are permitted to carry their weapon. Its not fair but its the way that very large company feels it should do buisness. Jake
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 8:30:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GSG9: Robert, your friend should not really feel terribly offended. If I am thinking of the same "wharehouse store" the loss prevention associates don't even carry weapons, only cuffs, those same LPs will be facing patrons/ shoplifters who are permitted to carry their weapon. Its not fair but its the way that very large company feels it should do buisness. Jake
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It sounds just like the one I'm talking about. I'm going to write the State Attorney General with carbon copies to; Public Safety Office, State Legislators and Congressman(congressmen?). I'm hoping that the deprivation of Liberty would be a key issue. With a CC note to each of the different depts, I'm sure someone will write back. If I don't like the results then I'll be crusading for changes. It would seem that most people feel there is nothing that can be done, but I'm going to do my best. I'll keep y'all posted. Robert
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 11:11:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun Guru:
Originally Posted By 308wood: #1. in texas yes. #2. no. the parking lot is public property so if he does not sigh a "consent to search" at the time of hire they cant touch his truck. #3. his job and his CHL no. #4. you can always sue. but I would not waist my time. your going to be a "grocery clerk" (apocalypse now) not a security guard. if you cap a perp and a bystander the store is toast. my company has the same set of rules. it sucks but if I get capped at work and live I will sue the hell out of the company for not allowing me to protect myself at work.
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No, the parking lot is private property, whomever rents the building rent right to the lot. The lot is for patrons. GG
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and for some lucky businesses, they own the parking lot outright too! streets are public access highways. parking lots are private property that's been covered with asphalt.
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 11:25:36 AM EDT
OK, let me get this straight. Private business owners are allowed to set their own policies, which must be adhered to by their employees. Private business owners also can reprimand (and/or terminate) employees as they see fit, if the employee breaks company policy. And lastly, private business owners can institute policies which may be in conflict with local or state regualtions. If this is so, then why aren't private business owners allowed to hire who they want (without scrutiny)?
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 11:31:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ARLady:
Originally Posted By Gun Guru:
Originally Posted By 308wood: #1. in texas yes. #2. no. the parking lot is public property so if he does not sigh a "consent to search" at the time of hire they cant touch his truck. #3. his job and his CHL no. #4. you can always sue. but I would not waist my time. your going to be a "grocery clerk" (apocalypse now) not a security guard. if you cap a perp and a bystander the store is toast. my company has the same set of rules. it sucks but if I get capped at work and live I will sue the hell out of the company for not allowing me to protect myself at work.
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No, the parking lot is private property, whomever rents the building rent right to the lot. The lot is for patrons. GG
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and for some lucky businesses, they own the parking lot outright too! streets are public access highways. parking lots are private property that's been covered with asphalt.
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Actually in Texas the parking lot would have to have a sign posted in order to prevent guns in the parking lot. If you want to exclude CHL from your business and your parking lot both must be posted conspicuously with a sign that complies with Sec 30.06 of Texas law. That said I have seen businesses posted in Texas but I have not seen a parking lot posted as of yet.
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 6:22:39 PM EDT
I am employed by the phone company and it is against company policy to even have an empty holster on company property. Not even allowed to have bare arrow shafts(so now those are collapsible tent poles). This policy is reviewed yearly and you have to sign off on it as a condition of employment. Even our union signed off on this .What crap
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