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Posted: 5/9/2002 6:30:10 PM EDT
Hi, I was wondering if anyone else felt the same way I did. The G11 is my favorite gun ever and I was wondering if anyone else would buy a G11 if one was offered. The only thing that would have to be changed is the removal of the bayonet lug. So would a civvie G11 or G11esque rifle be a good idea or a major flop?
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 6:36:19 PM EDT
Help me out.What is a G-11? [?]
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 6:37:41 PM EDT
Ammo'd cost a fortune if you could find it.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 6:42:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2002 6:57:00 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 6:45:10 PM EDT
I see no use for it. I think its shoots one of the super .177cal (4.5mm) size bullets. Talk about a mouse gun !!
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 6:57:44 PM EDT
Yes I would buy a G11. I collect HKs!
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 7:18:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2002 7:25:27 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Originally Posted By SigBlueStar: I see no use for it. I think its shoots one of the super .177cal (4.5mm) size bullets. Talk about a mouse gun !!
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[img]http://remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g11/g11.gif[/img] Idiocy abounds... The length of the cartridge of the G11 and HK-ACR is 33mm long, though in the United States the length of the chamber, not the cartridge case, is used to describe the round. Ballistically this round is similar to the new crop of military rounds like the 5.7x28mm SS190 which can penetrate a kevlar helmet from 200m. These rounds will defeat most body armor and when you consider their compact size, for example the FN Five-seveN is a handgun that chambers a 20 round magazine, and the amount of ammo that can be carried you would realize just how outgunned you are. But I'd still rather have the FN P90... [img]http://remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/data/p90b.gif[/img] Editted to add: The FN "Mouse Round" [img]http://remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/ammo/ss190.gif[/img] The SS190 is the 5.7x28 mm Ball round. Its projectile will perforate any individual protection on today's battlefield including the PASGT kevlar helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target (titanium and kevlar). The SS190's conventional design allows it to be manufactured on existing production lines, and its lead-free composition eliminates range contamination. Caliber 5.7x28mm Cartridge length 1.6 in. (40.5mm) Projectile weight ˜ 2.02g Recoil implulse ˜ 1.95 kg m/s Chamber pressure 345 MPa Muzzle velocity 715 m/s Perforation at 200 m - Body armor (48 layers of kevlar)- PASGT helmet [img]http://remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/ammo/sb193.gif[/img] Sb193 (subsonic round) The Sb193 cartridge has been designed to deliver a muzzle velocity of about 300 meters per second. This eliminates the loud crack caused by a bullet travelling faster than the speed sound. To enable the weapon to function reliably when firing this ammunition, the reduced velocity is compensated for by using a heavier bullet. The subsonic round is identified by the bullet's white tip. Cartridge length 1.6 in. (40.5mm) Projectile weight ˜ 3.6g Recoil implulse ˜ 1.3 kg m/s Chamber pressure 345 MPa Muzzle velocity 300 m/s Energy loss a 50 m ˜ 100 J Effective range (penetration of 24 layers of kevlar) 50 m
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 7:22:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 7:23:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 7:28:44 PM EDT
Data for the HK G11 "Mouse Round." Muzzle twist 155 mm/twist (6.10 inch/twist) Bore profile polygon Modes of fire single shot 3-round burst sustained fire Theoretical rates of fire: 3-round burst sustained fire > 2000 rpm approx. 600 rpm Magazine capacity 50 cartridges Combat range > 300 m (984 ft) [b]Steel helmet penetration up to 600 m (1 969 ft) [/b] Operating principle gas operated cartridge in the chamber Bolt principle cylinder bolt
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:09:49 PM EDT
If I had the money to spend on one(because you know they would cost an arm and a leg, and so would the ammo), then hell yes I would buy one! For the coolness factor alone would nearly justify the price(never discount the coolness factor). I would have bragging righs on the coolesy gun around for quite a while, and it looks to have excellent penetration for it's size(althought with rounds that small, you have to wonder about stopping power and energy trasferred to target). But stiil, that looks like it would be a blast to shoot, even if only in a civilian version.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:11:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By deadman: If I had the money to spend on one(because you know they would cost an arm and a leg, and so would the ammo), then hell yes I would buy one! For the coolness factor alone would nearly justify the price(never discount the coolness factor). I would have bragging righs on the coolest gun around for quite a while, and it looks to have excellent penetration for it's size(althought with rounds that small, you have to wonder about stopping power and energy transferred to target). But still, that looks like it would be a blast to shoot, even if only in a civilian version.
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Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:24:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:27:36 PM EDT
To my understanding the lack of a brass cartridge created an insolvable heat dissipation problem. I don't want a gun that will get so hot that it will melt with one mag, and won't cool down enough for me to shoot it in a reasonable amount of time. I'd rather have an M-16 thanks.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:33:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: The FN P90 is sweet. I think it was originally intended for use by armored vehicle crews, but wasn't it used by the commandoes that assaulted the japanese embassy in....I forget.
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In Peru. The Peruian commando dug a tranch from across the street and made entry to the building. there is a picture of a commando using a P90 with suppressor on the roof top after they have blown a hole through it.
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 12:43:06 PM EDT
I actually thought that once someone got to producing caseless ammo that it would be as cheap or cheaper then conventional ammo because there is less to it (no brass).
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 12:48:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Armed_Scientist: I actually thought that once someone got to producing caseless ammo that it would be as cheap or cheaper then conventional ammo because there is less to it (no brass).
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True but you forgot to factor in government restrictions. In truth you cannot even own either of these rounds legally.
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 12:51:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By Armed_Scientist: I actually thought that once someone got to producing caseless ammo that it would be as cheap or cheaper then conventional ammo because there is less to it (no brass).
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True but you forgot to factor in government restrictions. In truth you cannot even own either of these rounds legally.
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Really? I was not aware on any restriction on caseless ammo, is that why they stoped importing the Voer? Or is it because it shoots steel core ammo?
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 1:11:50 PM EDT
No! The G11 is a horrendous weapon. While it is an innovative "clean sheet" engineering marvel, the mechamism is extremely complex. Plus, the idea of caseless ammo is absurd--why did muzzleloaders dissapear after the metallic cartridge was invented? In part because with the metallic cartridge, your powder could not get wet as easily! There are many other problems with the caseless design--square bullets turning sideways and jamming in the mechanism, propellant getting shaved off (so you have rounds going downrange with different velocities, squibs, etc.). So to do away with an ejection port, you've introduced a ton of other complexity and problems that aren't easily solved. I'm willing to bet that H&K was never able to get this rifle to pass field trials where they really beat up on it to any degree. It's a toy, just like the OICW. As I shoot more and more, I'm finding out that good gun designs ended right around the time John Moses Browing died. Also, the 30-06 and .308 are still the best if you really want to kill someone at any distance. One more thing: Restricted ammunition is going to become more and more common, watch and see.
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 1:13:20 PM EDT
The Voere fired a different caselss round. What is restricted from importation are the high performance small caliber rounds of the modern military. Basically handguns and subguns that perform like assault and battle rifles. For example the FN Five-seveN fires the above SS190 round and holds a magazine of 20. [img]http://remtek.com/arms/fn/57/57.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 1:26:21 PM EDT
I think we have pretty much hit a plateau with conventional small arms. Its going to be very difficult to top what we have already. We will need a revolutionary step such as going from muzzleloaders to metalic cartidges. Just to get a small improvement will require tremendous amount of R and D, hence lots of $$$$$. The step maybe energy and plasma weapons. The government is already working on railguns, in the future they maybe are rifle sized. Imagine being able to take out a tank with a rifle!
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 1:27:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: What is restricted from importation are the high performance small caliber rounds of the modern military. Basically handguns and subguns that perform like assault and battle rifles.
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Just like Italian and Mexican laws, only we get some cartridges grandfathered. Isn't that special? [:|]
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 1:31:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARDOC: I think we have pretty much hit a plateau with conventional small arms. Its going to be very difficult to top what we have already. We will need a revolutionary step...
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The next wave is the Etronix electically-fired ammo. I'm dreading the day some rich guy hits the Highpower match line with an AR15 specially altered to fire those. With that incredibly fast lock time, he'll be kickin' some ass!
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 3:40:03 PM EDT
If I could, I would. [:(]
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