Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 3
Posted: 5/8/2002 9:54:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2002 9:57:33 PM EDT by The_Macallan]
For those who believe in the Judeo-Christian tradition, I suppose your answers are obvious. This is directed to those who are athiests or agnostics. Does good and evil exist in animals like clams, fish, birds and mice? If not, then how does it arise in humans? Is it an epiphenomenon of our intelligence or our tendency to be social animals or is it of some other natural origin? Or does good and evil not really exist at all - are they just judgements we impose on ourselves? Basically, what do you believe is the cause of good and evil?
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:00:45 PM EDT
Nature is NOT human hearted. -Lao Tzu Evil the the creation of man to define the acts of nature he objects to. Almost no man is entirely good or evil and most man have a great capacity for either. If we were another species our actions would go unnoticed and be excused as the "laws of nature."
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:01:45 PM EDT
Coke - Good Pepsi - Evil
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:03:43 PM EDT
Hollywood
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:08:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rainman: Coke - Good Pepsi - Evil
View Quote
WRONG! Pepsi is the force of good that is led by Mountain Dew Coke-Pure evil with such cohorts as Mr. Pibb and Surge. [:)]
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:09:13 PM EDT
Just curious, do you believe God is ominpotent? If so why does he permit evil to even exist? Why did he create Lucifer if he KNEW what would happen? Why didn't he save us from evil? Why does God permit people who will be evil to even be born and prey upon the rest of us? Hell lots of questions...
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:12:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Nature is NOT human hearted. -Lao Tzu Evil the the creation of man to define the acts of nature he objects to. Almost no man is entirely good or evil and most man have a great capacity for either.
View Quote
There are many things that man encounters that he objects to without calling it evil: the weather, laws of nature, his own physical limitations, etc. There's something more to it than that. It seems that "intent" must be part of what we call good or evil.
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: If we were another species our actions would go unnoticed and be excused as the "laws of nature."
View Quote
Interesting...
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:12:49 PM EDT
Freewill
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:14:14 PM EDT
They don't really exist its a judgement we pass according to our point of view. Think of this for instance. The New World Order takes over the US and declares the Constitution Void and gives back all the land white people took away from the Indians. Wouldn't we view the NWO as an evil entity? Wouldn't The Indians view white people as evil? White people unleashed germ warfare and slaughtered millions of their ancestors. Doesn't that make us Evil? Just a point of view.
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:15:57 PM EDT
This is directed to those who are athiests or agnostics.
View Quote
Actually few people are really eather of the above. To be an agnostic you are believing that you can neither prove nor disprove that God exist. So for a person to call themself an agnostic, they must also believe that God must actually exist if they can prove His existance. This proff is readily available thru prayer, meditation, andd other works, yet rarely are they willing to try or experience these acts of proof. If a person calls themself an athiests what they are really saying is that mankind is the pinacle of evolutionary existance that has ever graced this planet. Mankind is the end all and know all of anything that has existed before us. In essence, they would have you to believe that mankind itself is a type of god. Rather vain opinion IMHO. And if a person is a true athiest than any evil action would have no negative impact, since there would be no true consequences to be payed. Killing, rape, murder, etc would be okay. So good comes from God and when mankind is doing God's work. Evil comes from the devil and when mankind does the devils work. If you don't believe this, then I hope someday you will. Sgtar15 PS Try prayer before you discount it. Prayer works[0:)][0:)][0:)]
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:17:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: There are many things that man encounters that he objects to without calling it evil: the weather, laws of nature, his own physical limitations, etc. There's something more to it than that. It seems that "intent" must be part of what we call good or evil.
View Quote
But we don't control "weather, laws of nature, our own physical limitations" so we don't assign them human definitions. When the day comes that we can manipulate weather we will do it for both good and evil. When a animal kills another animal is it evil? What if it's not for food or protection of pack? What if it is just a kill?
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:24:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Actually few people are really eather of the above.
View Quote
Not surprisingly I disagree.
Originally Posted By sgtar15: To be an agnostic you are believing that you can neither prove nor disprove that God exist. So for a person to call themself an agnostic, they must also believe that God must actually exist if they can prove His existance. This proff is readily available thru prayer, meditation, andd other works, yet rarely are they willing to try or experience these acts of proof.
View Quote
Most agnostics simply don't know. Your proof of existence has also been used to prove the existence of the Buddha. You don't believe the Buddha is a god do you?
Originally Posted By sgtar15: If a person calls themself an athiests what they are really saying is that mankind is the pinacle of evolutionary existance that has ever graced this planet. Mankind is the end all and know all of anything that has existed before us. In essence, they would have you to believe that mankind itself is a type of god.
View Quote
Not at all true. They simply don't believe in some big invisible guy. Who knows what is out there?
Originally Posted By sgtar15: And if a person is a true athiest than any evil action would have no negative impact, since there would be no true consequences to be payed. Killing, rape, murder, etc would be okay.
View Quote
What pure horseshit. So fear of God is ALL that is keeping you from killing, rape and murder? What an asshole you must be without GOD scaring you into submission.
Originally Posted By sgtar15: So good comes from God and when mankind is doing God's work. Evil comes from the devil and when mankind does the devils work.
View Quote
Was God evil when he made the devil?
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:25:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Just curious, do you believe God is ominpotent? If so why does he permit evil to even exist? Why did he create Lucifer if he KNEW what would happen? Why didn't he save us from evil? Why does God permit people who will be evil to even be born and prey upon the rest of us? Hell lots of questions...
View Quote
Hell lots of answers... Yes I believe God is omnipotent. The question of why God "permits" evil is addressed in the Bible. Without going into a lot of quoting (that's [b]G-man's[/b] forte) I believe God "permits" evil only temporarily. Ultimately, God extinguishes evil, though not in a timeframe that pleases us right now (we be so impatient). Even Jesus "allowed" evil spirits to inhabit a herd of pigs - only later to see the pigs kill themselves. I have faith that God's "time" is not our "time" and so what seems to take thousands of years to rid the world of evil may in reality only be a flittering moment in God's time. We just don't have the view from eternity yet to understand it. That's where faith becomes of value (or a tripping stone as the case may be).
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:29:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2002 10:34:39 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: Yes I believe God is omnipotent.
View Quote
So if God KNOWS what is going to happen why did he permit the birth of Hitler? Why would he condemn to death the innocents of his most faithful chosen people? And just don't give me the "mysterious ways" thing.
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: Even Jesus "allowed" evil spirits to inhabit a herd of pigs - only later to see the pigs kill themselves.
View Quote
What the hell for? Pigs can't even think. They don't know from good or evil. Why make pigs suffer? It is stupid gobblygook like this that drives me nuts. See your post about pigs being possessed and killing themselves is evil in nature...
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: I have faith that God's "time" is not our "time"
View Quote
Still a LONG time when Danny Rollings is chopping your head off. We are so impatient... Hey God a little help with this "evil" thing you created...
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:30:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: PS Try prayer before you discount it. Prayer works[0:)][0:)][0:)]
View Quote
I'm not discounting it. I know it.
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:32:18 PM EDT
Not at all true. They simply don't believe in some big invisible guy. Who knows what is out there?
View Quote
This staement by you answers your previous questions. Us humans can't possibly know what is out there, hence we don't know and can't fully comprehend everything that God did/does. Belief in God doesn't scare me or stop me from doing things, it allows me to do things. Let me ask you this Steyr Aug. If you really don't believe in any type of God or anything spiritual then why do you even care were you bury a dog when it dies?? Do you thing a dog has an afterlife?? You are a contradiction of your own beliefs. Also, what is it that happened to you that made you such and avid God hater?? Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:33:15 PM EDT
I think good and evil have to do with feeling in control. I think any social animals possess those two qualities. I used to have a dog that was very friendly and quiet. One time I was trying to take the bone she was chewing on and she got really upset and hostile. She felt that it was her food, and she didn't want to let me have it. I did the same experiment with a tennis ball and she never got upset. Wouldn't you agree that you do evil things when you feel you are not in control? Wouldn't you agree that you do nice things to others if your life is great at the time?
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:33:18 PM EDT
Not this discussian AGAIN... It's simple Evil=AR15 Good = California, Bubba Clinton, Al Gore, Brady Bunch, ect... Hasn't Big Brother tought you anything?
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:40:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2002 10:42:01 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Originally Posted By sgtar15: This staement by you answers your previous questions. Us humans can't possibly know what is out there, hence we don't know and can't fully comprehend everything that God did/does.
View Quote
It was more to address the "humans are a god to atheists" statement. We may not actually be the biggest fish in the pond.
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Let me ask you this Steyr Aug. If you really don't believe in any type of God or anything spiritual then why do you even care were you bury a dog when it dies?? Do you thing a dog has an afterlife?? You are a contradiction of your own beliefs.
View Quote
Because I take responsibility for things, even after they are no longer viable. My dog is my responsibility in every detail. It is respect. I don't believe in doggy heaven. No contradictions here.
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Also, what is it that happened to you that made you such and avid God hater??
View Quote
I'd have to believe in a God to hate him. I don't hate the Easter bunny either.
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:55:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: So if God KNOWS what is going to happen why did he permit the birth of Hitler? Why would he condemn to death the innocents of his most faithful chosen people? And just don't give me the "mysterious ways" thing.
View Quote
Agreed, the "intentional" deaths of millions of innocents is evil. I believe in the eternal life of our "spirit" after death. And I also believe in the eternal death of Hitler's spirit. I believe Hitler is dead and those innocent millions still live on. Okay I'm rambling... on to your question. God can prevent all evil, but in doing so he would also prevent all [b]free will[/b]. Without free will we are just furry computers running lines of code (which is what some believe we really are). Free will allows for us to choose good or evil. And in doing so, WE choose to live or die. That, I believe, is the ultimate gift of a loving God - our life and our freedom.
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 11:01:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: But we don't control "weather, laws of nature, our own physical limitations" so we don't assign them human definitions. When the day comes that we can manipulate weather we will do it for both good and evil. When a animal kills another animal is it evil? What if it's not for food or protection of pack? What if it is just a kill?
View Quote
Are you saying there is no good or evil? That to kill a two-year-old child is a morally equivalent act as killing Adolf Hitler?
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 11:11:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2002 11:15:50 PM EDT by ARndog]
Originally Posted By sgtar15: And if a person is a true athiest than any evil action would have no negative impact, since there would be no true consequences to be payed. Killing, rape, murder, etc would be okay.
View Quote
ummm...no. an evil action would have many negative impacts. #1. Jail. If you truly believe that the only life you have is here on earth, why the fuck would you want to spend it in prison??? #2. Death. An early death at the hands of others who deem your actions to have been against the will of society. #3. Conscience. Doing something you know to be wrong unto someone else ends up knawing at you for the rest of your life. Organized religion is just a device of society to keep the peons in line. Why do you think their are so many born again christians in prison...they really fucked up this life, so their only hope is that there is an afterlife. Besides, all you have to do is confess and then all of your sins are absolved.(that sounds healthy for society[rolleyes]) **Edited because...because...because the devil made me do it.
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 11:15:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LngBchAR15: I think good and evil have to do with feeling in control. Wouldn't you agree that you do evil things when you feel you are not in control? Wouldn't you agree that you do nice things to others if your life is great at the time?
View Quote
Janet Reno was in total control when she torched the Branch Davidians. In fact it might have been the feeling of having such power at her disposal that fueled her evilness.
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 11:36:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2002 11:56:24 PM EDT by The_Macallan]
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Hey God a little help with this "evil" thing you created...
View Quote
The notion that God (if he exists) is responsible for creating evil or that he is wrong in permitting evil is not consistent with the nature of God, man and free will. God creates the world that is best. A world with free will is better than one without it. Man has free will. Free will IN man necessitates that choices must be made BY man. Given free will, it is impossible for a man to choose ONLY good (or else he would, by definition, be "God"). God is not responsible for a man's evil choices, since it is not in his power to bring about a man that ONLY chooses good (because that wouldn't be a "man" then). God created free will in man, man performs the acts of good or evil through his free will. God created the potential for evil, a man with free will makes evil actual. The absence of evil necessitates there be no free will. The presence of free will necessitates the existance of some evil. Bottom-line: [b]Apparently, many people (athiests mainly) believe that that absence of all evil is more desirable than freedom (free will).[/b]
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 5:54:28 AM EDT
The presence of free will necessitates the existance of some evil.
View Quote
Is free will really free, then, if some choices [b]have[/b] to be evil?
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 6:26:23 AM EDT
Good and evil are immutable standards based on the character, actions and commandments of the immutable God of Creation (the God of the Bible). Good is that which is in accordance with these things. Evil is the heart attitude and acts of rebellion against God's character, actions, and commandments. AV1611 out...
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 7:05:03 AM EDT
I'll jump into the fray. I don't believe in good or evil. Good does not exist. Evil does not exist. Anything that someone else considers either "good" or "evil" is simply an action. Society has concepts of what is "good" and what is "evil". These concepts, for the most part, allow humans to interact with one another under guidelines called "laws". If you follow them, you get to stay and play with everyone else. You break these self-imposed laws, and you don't. Is killing a 2 year old child the moral equivalent of killing Adolf Hitler? To answer that, I ask what do morals have to do with the question? The acts themselves are similar - the taking of a life. Morals are not needed. Does society, again, in general, feel this way? The answer would seem to be a resounding "no". the_reject
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 7:17:04 AM EDT
I don't believe in good or evil. Good does not exist. Evil does not exist. Anything that someone else considers either "good" or "evil" is simply an action. Society has concepts of what is "good" and what is "evil". These concepts, for the most part, allow humans to interact with one another under guidelines called "laws". If you follow them, you get to stay and play with everyone else. You break these self-imposed laws, and you don't.
View Quote
Do you also not believe in other abstractions, such as "beauty" and "truth"?
Is killing a 2 year old child the moral equivalent of killing Adolf Hitler? To answer that, I ask what do morals have to do with the question?
View Quote
Are you seriously wondering what morals have to do with a question about moral equivalency? [>:/] If the question were, "Is Pluto gravitationally equal to Jupiter?", would you be asking, "What does gravity have to do with the question?" [;)]
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 7:24:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: Do you also not believe in other abstractions, such as "beauty" and "truth"?
View Quote
Beauty I believe is also subjective. Truth is not subjective, nor an abstraction.
Are you seriously wondering what morals have to do with a question about moral equivalency? [>:/]
View Quote
Not wondering, questioning why they are involved in this manner in a discussion about the existance of good and evil.
If the question were, "Is Pluto gravitationally equal to Jupiter?", would you be asking, "What does gravity have to do with the question?" [;)]
View Quote
No. There would be (and is) a factual answer. the_reject
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 7:33:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed:
The presence of free will necessitates the existance of some evil.
View Quote
Is free will really free, then, if some choices [b]have[/b] to be evil?
View Quote
Yes. That's like asking is a coin toss truly random if some of the outcomes MUST be tails. Free will necessitates the existance of evil choices. In exercising free will, man actualizes that possibility by occasionally choosing evil.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 7:34:00 AM EDT
good and evil are labels we assign to deliberate human behaviors. they are a measure of how willing we are to cause suffering to others for our own perceived benefit. evil is intentional selfishness, and it comes from human nature, the desire to live, grow, and control the world around us. it's perfectly normal, in moderate doses. no deity required.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 7:37:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: That's like asking is a coin toss truly random if some of the outcomes MUST be tails.
View Quote
Okay, that's a good analogy. Here's a question, though: is it still considered a truly random coin toss if someone else knows exactly what the results will be before the coin is flipped? And would it make a difference if that individual told you what the result would be before you flipped, or not? the_reject
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 7:53:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2002 7:59:48 AM EDT by Renamed]
Truth is not subjective, nor an abstraction.
View Quote
If truth isn't an abstraction, what is it? Can you detect it with instruments or assign it a place in the periodic table of the elements? [:\] And while some truths are not subjective, others are. For instance, is there an objective truth value for statements such as "Monet was a better painter than Manet" or "Bushmaster is the best manufacturer of AR-style rifles"?
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:07:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: And while some truths are not subjective, others are. For instance, is there an objective truth value for statements such as "Monet was a better painter than Manet" or "Bushmaster is the best manufacturer of AR-style rifles"?
View Quote
If a truth is subjective, it is not a truth. the_reject
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:13:57 AM EDT
All good things come down from the Father of Lights Evil comes from two sources 1. Man who is evil from his birth ..the human heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it...2. Satan who is the father of all lies Who roams the earth like a lion seeking those he can devour. Good falls upon both the righteous and evil like rain...to prompt mankind to thank God for his mercy and kindness toward us fallen men...there are those who will turn to Him and those who turn away.. A man must choose who he will serve God or mammon ..God the flesh or the devil.. :) Pretty simple when you get right down to it.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:15:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Renamed:
The presence of free will necessitates the existance of some evil.
View Quote
Is free will really free, then, if some choices [b]have[/b] to be evil?
View Quote
Yes. That's like asking is a coin toss truly random if some of the outcomes MUST be tails. Free will necessitates the existance of evil choices. In exercising free will, man actualizes that possibility by occasionally choosing evil.
View Quote
That's an apt analogy. Who says, though, that a series of random coin flips MUST result in tails sometimes? Suppose I flip a coin three times. Does it HAVE to come up tails at least once? Of course not. Getting three consecutive heads is unlikely, but certainly not impossible. Now suppose I flip the coin three million times. The probability of getting three million consecutive heads is absurdly small (1 in 2^[3*10^6]), yet still greater than zero.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:19:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: But we don't control "weather, laws of nature, our own physical limitations" so we don't assign them human definitions. When the day comes that we can manipulate weather we will do it for both good and evil. When a animal kills another animal is it evil? What if it's not for food or protection of pack? What if it is just a kill?
View Quote
Are you saying there is no good or evil? That to kill a two-year-old child is a morally equivalent act as killing Adolf Hitler?
View Quote
Of course their is good and evil. But like math and science it is something WE created. You have to be able to perceive it for it to exist. We are the only species I am aware of who can perceive it.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:21:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2002 8:26:00 AM EDT by The_Macallan]
Originally Posted By the_reject:
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: That's like asking is a coin toss truly random if some of the outcomes MUST be tails.
View Quote
Okay, that's a good analogy. Here's a question, though: is it still considered a truly random coin toss if someone else knows exactly what the results will be before the coin is flipped? And would it make a difference if that individual told you what the result would be before you flipped, or not? the_reject
View Quote
Yes, it's still random even if "someone" knows the outcome. Randomness simply implies outcomes with equal probability of occurrance, not lack of precognition of the outcome. Now, precognition of random events implies an "un-natural" or "supernatural" form of consciousness. That I suppose is the realm of God or omniscience.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:22:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Hey God a little help with this "evil" thing you created...
View Quote
The notion that God (if he exists) is responsible for creating evil or that he is wrong in permitting evil is not consistent with the nature of God, man and free will. God creates the world that is best. A world with free will is better than one without it. Man has free will. Free will IN man necessitates that choices must be made BY man. Given free will, it is impossible for a man to choose ONLY good (or else he would, by definition, be "God"). God is not responsible for a man's evil choices, since it is not in his power to bring about a man that ONLY chooses good (because that wouldn't be a "man" then). God created free will in man, man performs the acts of good or evil through his free will. God created the potential for evil, a man with free will makes evil actual. The absence of evil necessitates there be no free will. The presence of free will necessitates the existance of some evil. Bottom-line: [b]Apparently, many people (athiests mainly) believe that that absence of all evil is more desirable than freedom (free will).[/b]
View Quote
God created Satan and according to you with prior knowledge of what would happen. To follow up I am asking questions on the assumption that all this actually exists. I don't believe we could ever get rid of evil because it was not created by a god.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:24:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Just curious, do you believe God is ominpotent? If so why does he permit evil to even exist? Why did he create Lucifer if he KNEW what would happen? Why didn't he save us from evil? Why does God permit people who will be evil to even be born and prey upon the rest of us? Hell lots of questions...
View Quote
To weed out the hackers from the non hackers ..... He did save us from evil..at the cross..Jesus saved us from eternal death His kingdom is not of this world and this world system... This is satans time ..for a season... Life is like a bird that enters a tent..it flutters arround...and then departs as quickly as it came. Eternal life is just that eternal..temporal life is just that... It weeds out the hackers from the non hackers Some vessles are created to serve ,others for destruction... God is God ... Job asked these same questions...read His answers...quite profound really. If you were a soldier under orders..I think its easier to understand imo In the end..God is good God is merciful its just that He has mercy on who He will...He is God He is Soverign He gives Life and He takes it away...Blessed be the name of the Lord.. Some Christians believe that man has a choice and must make a decision to trust and follow and believe Some Christians believe that man is pre-destined to be saved..and nothing can stand in the way of God doing just that..He will have mercy on who He will. and judgement on who He will. If hell and satan and God do not exist..why even worry about it... But if they do exist..be very worried about it..then try to do something about it if you even can...:)
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:26:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: All good things come down from the Father of Lights Evil comes from two sources 1. Man who is evil from his birth ..the human heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it...2. Satan who is the father of all lies Who roams the earth like a lion seeking those he can devour.
View Quote
Your two sources of EVIL; man and Satan are BOTH creations of the Father of Light, who according to you only makes good things.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:31:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the_reject: If a truth is subjective, it is not a truth.
View Quote
Isn't that statment itself subjective, and therefore meaningless since it can have no truth value? [;D]
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:34:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: Who says, though, that a series of random coin flips MUST result in tails sometimes?
View Quote
In an infinite series of "random" coin tosses, the definition of "randomness" necessitates that there be equal probability of outcomes (and given enough tosses, that probability MUST be actualized otherwise it is a false probability).
Originally Posted By Renamed: Suppose I flip a coin three times. Does it HAVE to come up tails at least once? Of course not. Getting three consecutive heads is unlikely, but certainly not impossible. Now suppose I flip the coin three million times. The probability of getting three million consecutive heads is absurdly small (1 in 2^[3*10^6]), yet still greater than zero.
View Quote
Certainly.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:34:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed:
Originally Posted By the_reject: If a truth is subjective, it is not a truth.
View Quote
Isn't that statment itself subjective, and therefore meaningless since it can have no truth value? [;D]
View Quote
w00t! Congratulations, you now have your degree in existentialism! [:D] Now for the puzzling paradox - there is only 1 truth, that being that there are no truths. the_reject
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:40:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: All good things come down from the Father of Lights Evil comes from two sources 1. Man who is evil from his birth ..the human heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it...2. Satan who is the father of all lies Who roams the earth like a lion seeking those he can devour.
View Quote
Your two sources of EVIL; man and Satan are BOTH creations of the Father of Light, who according to you only makes good things.
View Quote
No, that isn't what 9divdoc said. He said that God is the source of "[i]all[/i] good things", [b]not[/b] "[i]only[/i] good things". Of course, that does raise the problem of how man can have free will when only God is the source of good things. If good things come only from God, then man can be only the source of non-good things.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:47:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Renamed: Who says, though, that a series of random coin flips MUST result in tails sometimes?
View Quote
In an infinite series of "random" coin tosses, the definition of "randomness" necessitates that there be equal probability of outcomes (and given enough tosses, that probability MUST be actualized otherwise it is a false probability).
Originally Posted By Renamed: Suppose I flip a coin three times. Does it HAVE to come up tails at least once? Of course not. Getting three consecutive heads is unlikely, but certainly not impossible. Now suppose I flip the coin three million times. The probability of getting three million consecutive heads is absurdly small (1 in 2^[3*10^6]), yet still greater than zero.
View Quote
Certainly.
View Quote
The sticking point, then, is the issue of "enough" tosses. Since our lives are far from infinitely long, I maintain that truly "free" free will does not have to result in evil choices. By the way... Since God's existence is infinite, aren't we left with the conclusion that God either does some evil or doesn't have free will? [}:)]
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:52:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LotBoy: Freewill
View Quote
Dittos, pure and simple
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:53:07 AM EDT
Okay, I'll bite. Good and evil are rooted in perspective. The reality of physics dictate there are opposing forces. Taoism has sought to shed perspective and view these opposing forces without any prejudice. They simply exist. Ying Yang. Light, dark. Good, evil. On, off. Positive, negative. Male, female. Something, nothing. The concepts of good and evil are rooted in the perspective of the individual. What is considered to be evil by some may be considered good by others.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:54:01 AM EDT
If so why does he permit evil to even exist? Why did he create Lucifer if he KNEW what would happen? Why didn't he save us from evil? Why does God permit people who will be evil to even be born and prey upon the rest of us? Hell lots of questions...
View Quote
God has given us free will. it is his most wonderful gift. If he had not created Lucifer, and only had good we wouldnt have any choices and wouldnt have free will.[sniper]
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:54:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2002 8:55:12 AM EDT by The_Macallan]
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: God created Satan and according to you with prior knowledge of what would happen.
View Quote
Sort of. Yes, God created the world knowing the ultimate outcome of it (which according to the Bible is [i]something wonderful[/i] ). God created Lucifer. Lucifer, through exercising his free will, became Satan. A world with freedom and (consequently) evil is better than a world with no freedom and no evil.
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: To follow up I am asking questions on the assumption that all this actually exists. I don't believe we could ever get rid of evil because [red]it was not created by a god.[/red]
View Quote
Of course. And with that I agree totally. God did not create evil. God created the potential for evil, man exercising free will makes evil actual. I know what you were getting at though. I understand you're just going along with the "hypothetically-if-God-exists" line of dialogue just for the sake of argument. And I appreciate you at least going along with it and engaging in the discussion. Your perspective is challenging.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 8:59:11 AM EDT
The_Macallan, you never did answer my other question. Does evil exist among animals? When a animal kills another, and not for food or defense, is that evil? I'll pick this up later, I'm actually minutes away from shooting a truly evil MP5 for a few hours.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 3
Top Top