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Posted: 5/9/2002 8:59:17 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: No, that isn't what 9divdoc said. He said that God is the source of "[i]all[/i] good things", [b]not[/b] "[i]only[/i] good things". Of course, that does raise the problem of how man can have free will when only God is the source of good things. If good things come only from God, then man can be only the source of non-good things. If God is the source of both good things and bad things, then God cannot be all good. I thought I understood this to be one of the tenets of the Christian faith... the_reject |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 9:11:27 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: The sticking point, then, is the issue of "enough" tosses. Since our lives are far from infinitely long, I maintain that truly "free" free will does not have to result in evil choices. I think the average person has SO MANY instances where they exhibit their free will in their daily lives that really in no time at all we're bound to screw up. I guess Jesus is the example that makes your point. Very rare indeed. Quoted: By the way... Since God's existence is infinite, aren't we left with the conclusion that God either does some evil or doesn't have free will? [}:)] As far as my limited comprehension of who God is, part of the nature of God is that He has free will and yet [u]always[/u] does good. Just as Jesus was "God-in-man" with free will, yet who could not sin and still be Jesus. God cannot be self-contradictory, He cannot be "not God" Whoa, that one made me dizzy. [;)] |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 9:16:23 AM EDT
[#3]
Why do you guys even bother to explain to SteyrAUG
Steyr you seem to feed off of subjectivism, go ahead believe there no God. Believe in whatever belief system you desire, just remember ignorance will not be an excuse, and yes your accountable for your actions. Also (off topic) question, why do unbelievers pray when there a major life crisis, if they (you) don't belive in God. Also I get sick and tired of people blaming God for all the bad thing that happened. Talk about people not taking responsibility for their actions (hey lets blame God)NO! free will, YOUR free will! Let blame ourselves. Where does good and evil come from? From Us and conscience decisions we make every day. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 9:19:03 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Just curious, do you believe God is ominpotent? Yep! If so why does he permit evil to even exist? Why did he create Lucifer if he KNEW what would happen? Why didn't he save us from evil? That's kinda like asking why the government doesn't save us from ourselves... because God created us with free will! Think about it, if God didn't allow evil to exist we'd probably all be grumbling about not knowing what evil was like, and wanting to eat from the Tree of Good and Evil :) Why does God permit people who will be evil to even be born and prey upon the rest of us? Because the Earth is Satan's domain (yep www.earth.satan) blame HIM for all the crap that goes on here. But here is what I think - after living in this EVIL world, when we are in Heaven we will KNOW what it is like to live in a world with evil people and what the consequences are, and Heaven will be that much better. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 9:21:49 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Now for the puzzling paradox - there is only 1 truth, that being that there are no truths. the_reject What I'm about to say is the truth. What I just said is a lie. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 9:23:04 AM EDT
[#6]
Took a Religion 001 course at local college.
They touched on a few books including, "Course in Miracles", and "Conversations with God". Flipping through both of these, kept feeling the message was, "nothing matters, we're all going to die." Then felt stronger and stronger, the message, "Satan's greatest hoax, is convincing man he doesn't exist." Think these were written by him/followers. If you have the time, check out Dalai Lama, Zen Masters Suzuki or Hanh, and Native American books by Summer Rain or Caroline Myss. These all share the powerful undertow of common Cosmic Divine, and our choices of good and evil, all being recorded forever. Skip a few nights of TV, and these will change your life for the better. Bill O'Reilly summed it up with, "Be kind and generous. Care about people." |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 10:29:15 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: The_Macallan, you never did answer my other question. Does evil exist among animals? When a animal kills another, and not for food or defense, is that evil? . There is no evil or good in animals. Animals do not have a soul like ours, they dont know the diff between right and wrong. People know the differance and so can make choices. We have eaten from the tree. [sniper] |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 10:32:52 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Quoted: Just curious, do you believe God is ominpotent? Yep! If so why does he permit evil to even exist? Why did he create Lucifer if he KNEW what would happen? Why didn't he save us from evil? That's kinda like asking why the government doesn't save us from ourselves... because God created us with free will! Think about it, if God didn't allow evil to exist we'd probably all be grumbling about not knowing what evil was like, and wanting to eat from the Tree of Good and Evil :) Why does God permit people who will be evil to even be born and prey upon the rest of us? Because the Earth is Satan's domain (yep www.earth.satan) blame HIM for all the crap that goes on here. But here is what I think - after living in this EVIL world, when we are in Heaven we will KNOW what it is like to live in a world with evil people and what the consequences are, and Heaven will be that much better. Satan can not be blamed for all the wrong on earth. MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICES. greed is born in all of us but you need to quite with the 'devil made me do it" mantality. [sniper] |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 10:47:04 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: The_Macallan, you never did answer my other question. Does evil exist among animals? When a animal kills another, and not for food or defense, is that evil? I'll pick this up later, I'm actually minutes away from shooting a truly evil MP5 for a few hours. Let's see. Andrea Yates drowns her children for no apparent reason. A tiger eats her young for no apparent reason. It sure looks like two similar acts to me. But from my perspective, "evil" can only arise where there is free will. Do animals have free will? The answer to this will determine if animals are capable of evil. I don't think they do. In a previous post you wrote: Of course their is good and evil. But like math and science it is something WE created. You have to be able to perceive it for it to exist. We are the only species I am aware of who can perceive it. What I glean from this is that we are arriving at a similar answer to the question of evil among animals, but from slightly different perspectives. [Animals are not capable of evil because they lack free will (my reason) and/or they can't perceive good & evil (your reason).] Is this a fair characterization of your position? BTW, regarding math & science being [u]created[/u] by man, did the notion that "F=Ma" or "C=2(pi)r" [b]become[/b] reality at the moment man first "created" those formulae or have those concepts always been in existance? |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 10:52:55 AM EDT
[#10]
RIGHT AND WRONG ARE SUBJECTIVE!
There are no absolutes when talking about a human belief system. Even within the context of a single denomination or faith, people have various perspectives about the same, identical faith. I would go so far as to say there are as many faiths as there are people. With something as unique and subjective as religious beliefs and faith, the best anyone can ever hope for is to try and understand the foundations upon which other individuals base their faith. If a person can accomplish the goal of simply shedding their own biases long enough to attempt to understand another person's perspective, they have reached a tremendous milestone for human achievement. But you are never going to totally believe the same thing that another person believes and others will never totally believe what you believe. It's impossible. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 10:53:49 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Quoted: Because the Earth is Satan's domain (yep www.earth.satan) blame HIM for all the crap that goes on here. Satan can not be blamed for all the wrong on earth. MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICES. greed is born in all of us but you need to quite with the 'devil made me do it" mantality. [sniper] That is true. But Satan DOES do a hell of a job confusing and deceiving us. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 11:41:28 AM EDT
[#12]
[b][red][devil]********** Devil's Advocate **********[devil][/red]
Okay The_Maclelahan, (and all you other "Free Willers")... You state that "Evil exists because of free will" and that "The absence of evil necessitates there be no free will." And you also stated that "Animals are not capable of evil [u]because they lack free will[/u]." If so, then... Imagine a world where man exists but with no free will. It would probably resemble the ape world (since animals have no free will). Right now, even lacking free will, apes still do kill each other, war with other ape clans, abandon their helpless ones, etc. All the things that we do that we call "evil" acts. So how exactly would the lack of free will in man create a world where there's no "evil" acts perpetrated by men, when those same acts are still perpetrated by apes who DO lack free will? Hmmmmmmmmmm?? [devil] [/b] |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 12:47:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: For those who believe in the Judeo-Christian tradition, I suppose your answers are obvious. This is directed to those who are athiests or agnostics. Does good and evil exist in animals like clams, fish, birds and mice? If not, then how does it arise in humans? Is it an epiphenomenon of our intelligence or our tendency to be social animals or is it of some other natural origin? Or does good and evil not really exist at all - are they just judgements we impose on ourselves? Basically, what do you believe is the cause of good and evil? I can only speak for myself, but I believe that good and evil arise from the evolution of social interaction. For people to get along peacefully and efficiently, there have to be standards of behavior. You can even see this in the higher primates that live in large groups. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 12:52:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: I can only speak for myself, but I believe that good and evil arise from the evolution of social interaction. For people to get along peacefully and efficiently, there have to be standards of behavior. You can even see this in the higher primates that live in large groups. Is hatred (in and of itself) evil? |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 12:54:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: To be an agnostic you are believing that you can neither prove nor disprove that God exist. So for a person to call themself an agnostic, they must also believe that God must actually exist if they can prove His existance. No, that does not compute. An agnostic believes it's impossible to prove whether or not the supernatural exists. So...nothing. The second part of your point is illogical given the first. This proof is readily available thru prayer, meditation, andd other works, yet rarely are they willing to try or experience these acts of proof. Wrong again. Proof must be objective, not subjective. Otherwise it is useless. If a person calls themself an athiests what they are really saying is that mankind is the pinacle of evolutionary existance that has ever graced this planet. Mankind is the end all and know all of anything that has existed before us. In essence, they would have you to believe that mankind itself is a type of god. Rather vain opinion IMHO. Also rather wrong on your part. If you are an atheist, you DO NOT believe that evolution is progressive, thus humans are NOT the be-all and end-all product of evolutionary progress but simply a chance being that evolved because of environmental pressures. And if a person is a true athiest than any evil action would have no negative impact, since there would be no true consequences to be payed. Killing, rape, murder, etc would be okay. You should stick to speaking from your own belief system, since you're so consistently wrong when trying to speak for others. Atheists would say that murder and rape are evil because they needlessly hurt others and make peaceful coexistence with others impossible. PS Try prayer before you discount it. Prayer works PS Tried it for twenty years, it didn't work. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 12:56:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: All good things come down from the Father of Lights Evil comes from two sources 1. Man who is evil from his birth ..the human heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it...2. Satan who is the father of all lies Who roams the earth like a lion seeking those he can devour. If you believe that 1)God created all things and 2)God is omniscient, then you have to believe that evil came from God, since you believe He created both humans and Satan. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 12:57:07 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: . Also (off topic) question, why do unbelievers pray when there a major life crisis, if they (you) don't belive in God. I don't. Quoted: Also I get sick and tired of people blaming God for all the bad thing that happened. Talk about people not taking responsibility for their actions (hey lets blame God)NO! free will, YOUR free will! Let blame ourselves. I don't blame God for anything. Quoted: Where does good and evil come from? From Us and conscience decisions we make every day. I completely agree. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 12:58:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Is hatred (in and of itself) evil? No. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 1:01:52 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: BTW, regarding math & science being [u]created[/u] by man, did the notion that "F=Ma" or "C=2(pi)r" [b]become[/b] reality at the moment man first "created" those formulae or have those concepts always been in existance? Knew you'd flag that. It's a tree falling in the woods thing. Sure they always existed, but they need someone to recognize them for it to be relvant. Newtons Laws of Physics certtainly existed during the Cretaceous Perios but it didn't really matter. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 1:08:47 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: I can only speak for myself, but I believe that good and evil arise from the evolution of social interaction. For people to get along peacefully and efficiently, there have to be standards of behavior. You can even see this in the higher primates that live in large groups. If good and evil are social constructs, do good and evil exist then, among all social animals like apes, dogs and honeybees? Is it evil for rival chimp clans to go to "war"? Is it evil for a tiger to eat its young? Are termites and ants evil when they engage in acts of genocide on each other (which are clearly evil in our society)? Is "evil" merely breaking the rules imposed by society, no matter how oppressive those rules are? |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 1:12:24 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Newtons Laws of Physics certtainly existed during the Cretaceous Perios but it didn't really matter. Did good and evil also then exist? Drats. Now it's my turn to exit... Got another boring meeting to attend. (I'd rather be shooting!) [sniper] |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 1:14:30 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted: BTW, regarding math & science being [u]created[/u] by man, did the notion that "F=Ma" or "C=2(pi)r" [b]become[/b] reality at the moment man first "created" those formulae or have those concepts always been in existance? Knew you'd flag that. It's a tree falling in the woods thing. Sure they always existed, but they need someone to recognize them for it to be relvant. Newtons Laws of Physics certtainly existed during the Cretaceous Perios but it didn't really matter. Concepts, laws and the other "stuff" of science are human creations. They are intellectual tools that we use to understand the way the world works. So, for instance, the physcial relationships described (imperfectly) by Newton's laws existed long before Newton or his laws did. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 1:35:35 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Quoted: . Also (off topic) question, why do unbelievers pray when there a major life crisis, if they (you) don't belive in God. I don't. Quoted: Also I get sick and tired of people blaming God for all the bad thing that happened. Talk about people not taking responsibility for their actions (hey lets blame God)NO! free will, YOUR free will! Let blame ourselves. I don't blame God for anything. Quoted: Where does good and evil come from? From Us and conscience decisions we make every day. I completely agree. Steyr, Thanks for your insight[D] |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 1:40:00 PM EDT
[#24]
If good and evil are social constructs, do good and evil exist then, among all social animals like apes, dogs and honeybees? No. Evil intent requires an ability to conceptualize the consequences of one's actions (free will). Animals, so far as we can tell, have no concept of time and thus whatever harm they do is done by instinct without any thought of its consequences. Animals are driven to replicate their genes. Humans share this drive, but we also seek to perpetuate and promote order at higher levels of organization. Those abstractions that we share -- things like language, technology, and values -- are what have allowed a bunch of puny, hairless hominids to out-compete species like tigers and wolves. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 1:42:59 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: Is hatred (in and of itself) evil? No. like guns, the thing itself is not evil. it's what we do with it that can be evil. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 1:54:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Quoted: Newtons Laws of Physics certtainly existed during the Cretaceous Perios but it didn't really matter. Did good and evil also then exist? Drats. Now it's my turn to exit... Got another boring meeting to attend. (I'd rather be shooting!) [sniper] Only if there was somebody to perceive it. When a dinosaur kills for the sake of killing we may view it as evil. Try and remember "evil" is something we defined to identify something we found abohrent. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 2:16:30 PM EDT
[#27]
The New World Order crowd, the Illuminated ones, believe Lucifer was trying to help Adam & Eve to become as God.
God, they believe, was holding Adam & Eve prisoner in the Garden of Eden and keeping them in an Un-Enlightened state so they could not become as all knowing and powerful as God Himself. Lucifer, they believe, worked to Free Adam and Eve fom God's oppression but was caught and he and his supporters fought a mighty war with God. The struggle against God, they claim, continues to this day and one day all men will be as God with the help of their God, Lucifer, also known to them as the Son of The Morning Star. If God was not Kind, Loving & All Merciful as we generally accept him to be, it would explain why Evil exists and why there is so much pain & death in the world which God created. And why we have been abandoned here. And when G. W. Bush, who is 'in' Big Time with many of the NWO Crowd, says he believes in God, to which God is he Referring? Some of the Beliefs of the Illuminati, those who claim Inner Knowledge of the Truth.... |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 3:05:13 PM EDT
[#28]
I am an Agnostic with a deep belief in God.
Good and evil - both exist and to some degree within most of us. Good and evil might exist in lower forms of life but is simply to not recognizable as such to us as yet. Where I run into trouble attempting to understand is with a person such as Ted Bundy. Apparently Bundy had a normal, upper middle class upbringing but was a monster. Where did this evil come from ?? |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 3:14:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Does good and evil exist in animals like clams, fish, birds and mice? If not, then how does it arise in humans? Is it an epiphenomenon of our intelligence or our tendency to be social animals or is it of some other natural origin? Or does good and evil not really exist at all - are they just judgements we impose on ourselves? |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 3:20:36 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: If good and evil are social constructs, do good and evil exist then, among all social animals like apes, dogs and honeybees? I would say only among the higher primates. Bees and dogs don't have complex enough brains to base their social interactions on much more than instinct. Is it evil for rival chimp clans to go to "war"? They don't consider it evil. To a chimp, only betrayal of the clan would be considered evil...to them, another clan is not "human," just as through history human clans have considered outsiders less than human. Is it evil for a tiger to eat its young? Tigers don't have brains complex enough to act on anything but instinct. Are termites and ants evil when they engage in acts of genocide on each other (which are clearly evil in our society)? Since I already said that I don't believe good and evil are universal concepts, you're wasting a lot of questions that you could have answered yourself by applying my original statement. Is "evil" merely breaking the rules imposed by society, no matter how oppressive those rules are? No, evil is not breaking the WRITTEN rules (although some of these rules are written) evil is breaking the rules everyone knows from experience. For instance, it isn't evil to violate a zoning law, but it's evil to murder your neighbor. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 6:07:03 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: And when G. W. Bush, who is 'in' Big Time with many of the NWO Crowd, says he believes in God, to which God is he Referring? Wow, looks like someone ate two bowls of Conspiracy-O's this morning. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 6:16:31 PM EDT
[#32]
I am an Agnostic with a deep belief in God. If you believe in God, you're a theist, not an agnostic. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 7:25:03 PM EDT
[#33]
In my belief good and evil need no god to exist.
A small child can drop three small kittens down an open well casing. He has no concept of what he has done,if after his parents fish the dead kittens out of the well. The child sees that they are dead,knows that he is the one that killed them,shows remourse. Then does it again,then that is evil. Animals very seldom kill,weather it be for territory,mating rites whatever,the bigger alpha male asserts his dominance and the beta male flees. If killing for food there is no such thing as evil. Its the knowledge of good and evil that makes you good or evil. Some species that are taken over by a new alpha male kill all the young so that the new female will go into estros again so he will have new offspring of his own dna. Much like a small boy with an ant farm of red and black ants,eventually he will quit trying to keep the red ants from killing off the black ants(and visa virsa). So I say from a distance god is watching us. So do the right thing, you know what it is. Having a knowledge of good and evil, be evil if you want,or good. But be prepared to pay for your choices. Bob [O:)] ( Edited to say yes I was the three year old that put the three kittens in the well.) |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 7:46:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: For those who believe in the Judeo-Christian tradition, I suppose your answers are obvious. This is directed to those who are athiests or agnostics. Does good and evil exist in animals like clams, fish, birds and mice? If not, then how does it arise in humans? Is it an epiphenomenon of our intelligence or our tendency to be social animals or is it of some other natural origin? Or does good and evil not really exist at all - are they just judgements we impose on ourselves? Basically, what do you believe is the cause of good and evil? Animals and babies are innocent. Which is to say that they have no knowledge of good and evil. When an animal acts in a superficially sinister manner, it does so out of primal instinct and biological drive. When a baby cries he does so because he's hungry or in pain, etc and not to annoy the adults. Good and evil exist as choices. Humans are not governed by instinct or drives but by reason. Our instincts and drives serves as motives to our actions but, overall, we are creatures of intellect. There could be no good or evil without the ability to choose between the two. The "Eve and the Apple" part in Genesis can be seen as a way to illustrate that humans are different from innocent animals in that we possess the tools and the will to make moral (as opposed to instinctual) decisions. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 8:19:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: No, evil is not breaking the WRITTEN rules (although some of these rules are written) evil is breaking the rules everyone knows from experience. For instance, it isn't evil to violate a zoning law, but it's evil to murder your neighbor. Using this thinking then, throughout most of human history, savage forms of slavery were the norm and were thus, not inherently "evil". And only recently has the evil of slavery been "discovered" - much like the discovery of mathematical or scientific truths. Or.. hasn't slavery (or brutal, despotic monarchies, genocide or raping & pillaging defeated villages, etc.) ALWAYS been "evil"? Isn't there a transcending truth regarding what is good and evil REGARDLESS of the current societal norms of the day? |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 8:32:25 PM EDT
[#36]
Where there is a positive there is usually a negative. It would be logical to assume that if there is good than there must be evil.
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Posted: 5/9/2002 9:00:18 PM EDT
[#37]
Slavery is and was allways here,I am a slave because my 12th grade education will allways have me working for others,whom having a higher education(thus more financial wealth)will allways need things done that they cannot or will not do themselves.
Sometimes It's things that I can do that they can't do regardless of their status-quo,then I happly serve. Now I would be very put out if the old whip would be brought out,preverbaly as such. But it is allways there,though when you reprogram the cars computer after a sudden stop shuts down the electric fuel pump.ect. You could tell the cars owner(well you gotta be smarter than the car) But what would be the point? We are all slaves of some kind. I think we might even be slaves to this AR/15.com,what do you think about this slavery now? By the way macs always love your posts and replys. And by the way ,have one of those slippery things with eyes in the gills. bob [:D] |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 9:05:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Using this thinking then, throughout most of human history, savage forms of slavery were the norm and were thus, not inherently "evil". And only recently has the evil of slavery been "discovered" - much like the discovery of mathematical or scientific truths. Nope. Evil has always been about things you shouldn't do to members of your family, or clan, or tribe. What's happened through history, as technology and communications have improved and nations have expanded, is that we now have much LARGER meanings for who is considered part of our "tribe." Some of us do anyway...the members of Al Quaeda are a counterexample of those who still consider non-Muslims (aka non-tribe-members) to be less than human. Or.. hasn't slavery (or brutal, despotic monarchies, genocide or raping & pillaging defeated villages, etc.) ALWAYS been "evil"? Apparently not, since it was condoned by most societies, and also apparently condoned by the God of the Bible (see Numbers 31). Isn't there a transcending truth regarding what is good and evil REGARDLESS of the current societal norms of the day? As I already said, there is a general norm of what is considered evil but it always excludes "outsiders"...what has happened is that our list of "outsiders" has shrunk. |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 9:07:23 PM EDT
[#39]
If we all followed the 10 Commandments, God's Laws, then there would never be any need for any other criminal law to ever be passed.
Sgtar15 |
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Posted: 5/9/2002 10:28:53 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Nope. Evil has always been about things you shouldn't do to members of your family, or clan, or tribe. Nope. That's not evil, that's utilitarianism. I hardly think that the slow torturous death by crucifixion (which was, at the time, the norm in the most enlightened of human societies), is "okee-dokee" as long as it's done to non-tribe members. No. Torture is EVIL regardless of whether it's done to "outsiders" or not. Torture has always been evil at all times in any historical epoc - regardless of whether it was acceptable then or not. There ARE truths of good and evil that transcend "tribal" boundries, utilitarian benefits and popular opinion. This notion of what "evil" is (things we don't allow to be done to "clansmen" but DO allow to be done to "outsiders") is the same justification used by all who've ever conducted genocide. Quoted: What's happened through history, as technology and communications have improved and nations have expanded, is that we now have much LARGER meanings for who is considered part of our "tribe." Some of us do anyway...the members of Al Quaeda are a counterexample of those who still consider non-Muslims (aka non-tribe-members) to be less than human. Or... what's happened is that we are beginning to realize that there ARE eternal truths and absolutes regarding good and evil regardless of what is currently popular. "Freedom is good and torture is evil" - these are truths that have always existed (like the mathematical truths of geometry), it only took man thousands of years to realize them. Quoted: Isn't there a transcending truth regarding what is good and evil REGARDLESS of the current societal norms of the day? As I already said, there is a general norm of what is considered evil but it always excludes "outsiders"...what has happened is that our list of "outsiders" has shrunk. No. I think that's just rationalizing our evil nature by saying that it's not "evil" to conduct certain atrocities against "outsiders". |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 4:38:38 AM EDT
[#41]
Using this thinking then, throughout most of human history, savage forms of slavery were the norm and were thus, not inherently "evil". And only recently has the evil of slavery been "discovered" - much like the discovery of mathematical or scientific truths. As bad as it is, slavery is still better than death. So when conquerors started to enslave the vanquished instead of executing them, that was a moral step forward. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 4:54:09 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Nope. That's not evil, that's utilitarianism. That is a non sequitur and doesn't address the point. I hardly think that the slow torturous death by crucifixion (which was, at the time, the norm in the most enlightened of human societies), is "okee-dokee" as long as it's done to non-tribe members. Yet it WAS considered okay by the Romans. No. Torture is EVIL regardless of whether it's done to "outsiders" or not. Torture has always been evil at all times in any historical epoc - regardless of whether it was acceptable then or not. Well, I agree...it's evil to me, whenever it was done. But you are ignoring the fact that there were times when the vast majority of people did NOT consider it evil if it was done to "them." Including the Inquisition. There ARE truths of good and evil that transcend "tribal" boundries, utilitarian benefits and popular opinion. Ummm...Mac, YOU started this thread ASKING non-believers what THEY thought about good and evil. It seems a bit disingenuous for you to then come out and say "You're all wrong! I'm right!" YOU ASKED. The polite thing would be to say "Okay, thanks for responding." This notion of what "evil" is (things we don't allow to be done to "clansmen" but DO allow to be done to "outsiders") is the same justification used by all who've ever conducted genocide. It isn't a justification, it's the FACTS. That is how people HAVE acted throughout history, INCLUDING those people that were believers in the same God you worship. Or... what's happened is that we are beginning to realize that there ARE eternal truths and absolutes regarding good and evil regardless of what is currently popular. Oh, so we "discovered" this, then, like we discovered Relativity? Fraid not. What we did discover was that treating everyone like we used to just treat our friends and neighbors makes more sense and makes our society run better, particularly in the world in which we live today. "Freedom is good and torture is evil" - these are truths that have always existed (like the mathematical truths of geometry), it only took man thousands of years to realize them. Freedom has always been considered good...but people have had different ideas about what it means. The Greeks believed in the value of freedom, yet kept slaves and didn't see the contradiction. No. I think that's just rationalizing our evil nature by saying that it's not "evil" to conduct certain atrocities against "outsiders". Again you speak as if I am prescribing rather than describing. I am not rationalizing ANYTHING, I am telling you how it has been. You can feel free to deny reality if you wish, but I didn't come here to do the "yes it is...no it isn't" dance with you. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 5:11:20 AM EDT
[#43]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Freedom is good and torture is evil" - these are truths that have always existed (like the mathematical truths of geometry), it only took man thousands of years to realize them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Freedom has always been considered good...but people have had different ideas about what it means. The Greeks believed in the value of freedom, yet kept slaves and didn't see the contradiction. Suppose you became fluent in ancient Greek and were able to travel back in time to Athens in 400 BC. Which of the following would you be best able to teach the Athenians: 1) The structure of the atom 2) The structure of our solar system 3) Calculus 4) The evil of slavery The first three would be difficult, but getting the Athenians to abolish one of the main economic supports of their society would be nearly impossible. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 5:59:31 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: As bad as it is, slavery is still better than death. So when conquerors started to enslave the vanquished instead of executing them, that was a moral step forward. "Give me liberty or give me... slavery (but just don't kill me)!" [:D] |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 6:13:34 AM EDT
[#45]
You guys fail to recognize my previous two responses.
Truth is only truth to you as an individual. Truth is not a fact and "gospel" is only subjective truth believed by the masses. Truth can be based upon facts, but it is something "believed to be factual", meaning that your understanding of a fact is not the fact itself. Truth is fact as YOU UNDERSTAND IT. Unless you are party and present to a "fact" in the first person, any subsequent communication of the "fact" becomes subject to a person's individual perspective. People communicate differently and a person might relate their first person experiences in a verbatim fashion to another person. However, the listener may not perceive the communication the exact way the speaker is intending. If people can't adequately communicate a simple "fact" like a grocery list, then how in the hell are they going to adequately communicate something so magnanamous as "good vs. evil" or "Is there a God"? |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 6:26:44 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: Nope. That's not evil, that's utilitarianism. That is a non sequitur and doesn't address the point. It was a comment on your statement. Quoted: I hardly think that the slow torturous death by crucifixion (which was, at the time, the norm in the most enlightened of human societies), is "okee-dokee" as long as it's done to non-tribe members. Yet it WAS considered okay by the Romans. What's "popular" isn't necessarily what's "good". Quoted: No. Torture is EVIL regardless of whether it's done to "outsiders" or not. Torture has always been evil at all times in any historical epoc - regardless of whether it was acceptable then or not. Well, I agree...it's evil to me, whenever it was done. But you are ignoring the fact that there were times when the vast majority of people did NOT consider it evil if it was done to "them." Including the Inquisition. Actually I was hinting around that I didn't believe that man is the arbitor of good and evil - but you probably surmised my position on that already. I believe that there's things we do down here that we think are perfectly fine, and yet, in truth are actually evil. I don't think human wisdom is the final judge or determinant of good and evil. Quoted: There ARE truths of good and evil that transcend "tribal" boundries, utilitarian benefits and popular opinion. Ummm...Mac, YOU started this thread ASKING non-believers what THEY thought about good and evil. It seems a bit disingenuous for you to then come out and say "You're all wrong! I'm right!" YOU ASKED. The polite thing would be to say "Okay, thanks for responding." Okay, thanks for responding. But shirley you knew I wasn't just taking a poll [;)] |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 6:27:35 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: This notion of what "evil" is (things we don't allow to be done to "clansmen" but DO allow to be done to "outsiders") is the same justification used by all who've ever conducted genocide. It isn't a justification, it's the FACTS. That is how people HAVE acted throughout history, INCLUDING those people that were believers in the same God you worship. Yes, it is a fact. It's a fact that Hitler and Stalin thought they were right in thier actions. Facts are neither good nor evil. But facts are used to justify behavior - even evil behavior. I believe people do things on occasion that, though THEY don't see them as evil, ARE in fact evil [u]regardless[/u] of whether those things are popular or accepted societal norms, customs, beliefs and traditions. Quoted: No. I think that's just rationalizing our evil nature by saying that it's not "evil" to conduct certain atrocities against "outsiders". Again you speak as if I am prescribing rather than describing. I am not rationalizing ANYTHING, I am telling you how it has been. You can feel free to deny reality if you wish, but I didn't come here to do the "yes it is...no it isn't" dance with you. Yes you did. [;)] Kidding aside, I understand (somewhat) your position and that was the point of the thread - to exchange ideas. I have a difficult time understanding the utilitarian point of view when it comes to good and evil and wanted to engage in more discussions to get more insights. I believe good and evil do not arise from human understanding or social interactions. I wanted to hear from those who believe they do. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 6:36:20 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: You guys fail to recognize my previous two responses. Truth is only truth to you as an individual. Truth is not a fact and "gospel" is only subjective truth believed by the masses. Truth can be based upon facts, but it is something "believed to be factual", meaning that your understanding of a fact is not the fact itself. Truth is fact as YOU UNDERSTAND IT. Unless you are party and present to a "fact" in the first person, any subsequent communication of the "fact" becomes subject to a person's individual perspective. People communicate differently and a person might relate their first person experiences in a verbatim fashion to another person. However, the listener may not perceive the communication the exact way the speaker is intending. If people can't adequately communicate a simple "fact" like a grocery list, then how in the hell are they going to adequately communicate something so magnanamous as "good vs. evil" or "Is there a God"? No, I didn't fail to recognize them, I just can't carry on a conversation with too many folks at one time [:D] [i]"Truth is fact as YOU UNDERSTAND IT."[/i] That reminds me of the "Seinfeld" line where George tells Jerry (who's trying to trick a lie detector) "It's not a lie if YOU believe it". hehehe... Okay, back to the discussion - The geocentric model of the solar system is NOT the truth no matter who "understands" it to be so. The notion that "truth" is "belief" rather than "fact" seems more like semantics. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 6:55:17 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: [i]"Truth is fact as YOU UNDERSTAND IT."[/i] That reminds me of the "Seinfeld" line where George tells Jerry (who's trying to trick a lie detector) "It's not a lie if YOU believe it". hehehe... Okay, back to the discussion - The geocentric model of the solar system is NOT the truth no matter who "understands" it to be so. The notion that "truth" is "belief" rather than "fact" seems more like semantics. The irony in the Seinfeld episode is how my point is clearly made. That is exactly what I am talking about. If you believe in something non-factual, it's truth to you. There was a day and time the world was flat. It was gospel. Take this into consideration. If a person had a lie detector back in the Age of Reason, and they were a believer in the flat earth. Would they fail the test if they "lied" and stated the world was round? This is why a lie detector can never be admissable as evidence in a court of law. Truth is truth only as people understand and know it. This transcends far beyond semantics. It's the root of all human conflict. If people could understand there really is a difference between truth and fact, the world would be a better place. Truth is someone's version of fact after it has been altered by their unique perspective. There is a big difference. Good and evil are conceptual "truths" depending upon which side you are talking to. The only "fact" with regard to the concepts of good and evil are the recognition of the existence of opposing forces. Anything else beyond that single, MEASURABLE phenomenon becomes completely subjective. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 6:57:31 AM EDT
[#50]
Well Mac, all I can say is that I try to base my beliefs and philosophies on the world as it is, not the world as I would like it to be.
From experience, from studying history, psychology, biology and sociology, I can tell you that the way humans work is that they consider some fairly consistent things to be good, and others to be evil, but that the things they consider evil are only evil when done to those they consider "us." Through history, the "us" has broadened, but the existence of the concept has remained. Therefore, I see no proof that there is a universal, objective, transcendent standard of good and evil that has been transmitted via revelation by a supreme being and acknowledged throughout histoy by humans. I guess one could argue that if there is a creator, the fact he created life argues that he is in favor of preserving life, but there is no proof that it is so. I think what you REALLY wanted to ask atheist and agnostics isn't "Where do you think good and evil come from?" but "why do you act good?" The answer, of course, is that it's the right thing to do...for humans to live together in peace, efficiently and productively, the best way to behave is to treat others as you would want them to treat you. |
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