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Posted: 5/7/2002 4:34:39 AM EDT
I heard the profile of the pipe mail bomber last nite - a white male, who is angry with the gov't. My immediate reaction was "WHY do they always blame a white male?? How does this jerk know it wasn't a black male??" Then I thought "Well, that's prolly because it IS usually a white male who does these things." Then the thought process continued. Why do black males NOT do these things?? Why aren't black males attacking the gov't the way white males do?? Then the old axiom re: Marxists came to mind - [b]Whenever a Marxist accuses you of doing something reprehensible, you KNOW that specific action is exactly his intended action and plan of attack. [/b] For years, the Marxists have accused white males, thru conservative gov't policies, of creating an oppressed class in America, keeping down the black man. But we DO NOT see black males attacking that gov't with pipe bombs. We see white guys doing it. Then it hit me. Indeed the Marxists are likely correct. There HAS been an oppressed class created in America, a class of people whom gov't has driven to the point of horrific action. That class of people is the white male. And the Marxists are the ones who have created that class, and driven it to actions like pipe bombs in the mail.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 4:58:11 AM EDT
Your conspiracy theory sucks. To be a good conspiracy theory, it should be impossible to prove or disprove any of the claims, and it should have a clear tin foil hat slant to it. Your theory doesn't have any of that. White (heterosexual) males are the only group left who have absolutely no legal protection in our society. I could be fired without reason and have absolutely no recourse because of the color of my skin. I can be discriminated against in hiring policies because of the color of my skin. I've been informed that certain types of organizations don't hire my kind. Of course it's an oppressed class. Of course, anyone who speaks out in favor of equality is branded a racist and tarred and feathered in the press. Seems like a pretty good reason for people to be upset with those who make and enforce the policies. We don't even have to wear insignias on our clothing. People can just look at us and tell we're "one of them". Of course, I'll be branded a racist because "everyone" knows that white males get all the advantages in the world from some grand conspiracy that's so incredibly strong that it doesn't even have a name. I've been told that I'm promoting racism by taking advantage of all the benefits I get as a white male. Now there's a good conspiracy theory. An entire group of people are working to promote themselves, and even more, every single person in the world will show preference to that group, because they're so inherently advantaged. Not a shred of evidence to back it up. That's what you need for a good conspiracy theory. [:)]
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 4:59:19 AM EDT
People as individuals are responsible for their actions. They are not victims, individually or as a class, and are not "driven" to do anything by some boogeymen.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:05:03 AM EDT
Just the fact that these bombings began in Iowa -- one of our less "diverse" states -- makes it natural to suspect that the perpetrator is white.
For years, the Marxists have accused white males, thru conservative gov't policies, of creating an oppressed class in America, keeping down the black man. But we DO NOT see black males attacking that gov't with pipe bombs.
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In the Marxist world view, the system of oppression goes way beyond the government. Why get involved with the FBI by attacking the government when you can fight "the man" more safely and more profitably by going directly after the oppressive class?
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:27:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:29:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: People as individuals are responsible for their actions. They are not victims, individually or as a class, and are not "driven" to do anything by some boogeymen.
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They are not driven by a "boogeyman" they are driven by a real, tangible, intentional, concerted, intensive, calculated effort to drive the white male to the edge of society, and the edge of his sanity. MOST handle it thru non-violent means. A VERY few flip out, proiducing the desired end - the abiltiy to create a profile of "flipped out" people - anti gov't, white males. If those individuals HAPPEN to be gun owners, that is gravy for the Marxists. I'm definitely an advocate of personal responsibility. But if the gov't takes a huge chunk of your take home pay to the point where you can't feed, clothe or house your family, to the point where you lose your family, are driven to alcohol, lose your job, your automobile, your self-resepct, your entire life, I dare say YOU would possibly be "driven" to do some things that under normal circumstances you would never do. I [b]KNOW [/b]I would. And THAT is the desired end of the Marxist - societal anarchy, where society eventually clamors to the Marxist to "fix everything" and to "protect them" from the "angry white male." Its ONLY a matter of convenience that they choose to marginalize the white male in this fashion, via their exploitation of the black male. It devilishly clever, really.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:37:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: People with rural mailboxes in Illinois, Iowa, and Nebraska--now [b]there's[/b] some oppressors to fight back against! Woulda been my first target. [whacko]
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The profiler made the point that the pipe bomber (thru his methodology) was NOT trying to harm rural mail RECIPENTS, but rural mail CARRIERS. Postal workers. Gov't employees. And it DOES make sense - a heartland, white male (those heartland people - you know Bush country - have been KNOWN to be kooks for years . AT least that's how the Marxists profile them) driving to various locales to spread terror by attacking gov't mail carriers.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:40:13 AM EDT
Garandman - do you think there is a strong organized Marxist movement in the U.S. ? If so can you back it up ? I'm not knocking you or your post, but I've have not heard of any widespread or growing marxist movements , i'm sure there are small pockets , but I was always under the impression like the neo-nazis and other such groups they lack the people and power to organize on an national front.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:47:33 AM EDT
Have some cocoa, you'll feel better. [:)] Seriously, your theory reminds me of that well-known axiom, "I'll see it when I believe it." Read that one twice, at least. Vast national conspiracies aside, the more reasonable "explanation" would be that of a seriously delusional paranoid capable of planning and executing a series of (mostly unsuccessful) pipe bomb attacks in the service of his delusions. Think Tim McVeigh without all the charm. That, or some cracked plumber who finally got fed up with fixing other people's toilets...
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:53:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By DScott: People as individuals are responsible for their actions. They are not victims, individually or as a class, and are not "driven" to do anything by some boogeymen.
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They are not driven by a "boogeyman" they are driven by a real, tangible, intentional, concerted, intensive, calculated effort to drive the white male to the edge of society, and the edge of his sanity. ...
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Orchestrated by who (whom?) exactly? What cabal is this? The NWO? Masons? Mickey and Pluto? Who are the actors? Please specify...
And THAT is the desired end of the Marxist - societal anarchy, where society eventually clamors to the Marxist to "fix everything" and to "protect them" from the "angry white male." Its ONLY a matter of convenience that they choose to marginalize the white male in this fashion, via their exploitation of the black male. It devilishly clever, really.
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You give "them" too much credit. Really.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:08:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:21:20 AM EDT
I know the difference between socialism/marxism and communism.(I have a minor in history) Canada has had social medical programs for over 20 years , last I was there Castro did not meet me at the boarder or was there any sign of a proletariat uprising. A few social programs or pipe bombs are a far cry from a November revolt.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:29:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rogerb: Garandman - do you think there is a strong organized Marxist movement in the U.S. ? If so can you back it up ? .
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Marxism is an ideology, NOT a movement. Its NOT like the Elks Lodge, where they meet together, chant and wear funny hats. Let me show you organized Marxist ideology - 1. Socialized medicine - Hillary Clinton 2. Gun control - Rosie, Chuck Scumer et al. (Creates centralization of power, because guns = power) 3. Public schools ( 10th Measure of Marxism) 4. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. (3rd Measure of Marxism) Our current inheritance tax takes in excess of 50% of a persons estate. This makes it IMPOSSIBLE to pass wealth from generation to generation. Wealth is the single greatest roadblock to Marxist takeover of a society. Democrats REFUSE to allow the inheritance tax to die. 5. The utilization of class struggle is a chief tool and aim of Marxism. Did you listen to any of Gore's campaign speeches??? His pitted black against white, rich against poor, educated against uneducated, young against old, men against women, and on and on. 6. Gov't control of the means of production is another key tenet of Marxism. Excessive taxation, regulation bad enuf to drive many OUT of business, farm subsidies to cut food production, and many other ways gov't controls the means of production. All Democrat economic and idological staples for years. I could go on and on. While Marxism corsses all political affiliations, economic strata, racial and societal divisions, with regard to the evidentiary existence of Marxism today, the best parallel I can give you is this - Republicans have largely become big gov't Democrats, and the Democrat's have become Marxists. The Republic is lost.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:32:39 AM EDT
So, In a nutshell: Things are pretty fucked up?[:D]
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:41:42 AM EDT
Marxism only existed in the minds of its authors Marx and Engles, they made broad assumptions about human nature and underestimated the drives of greed,power and hate. Communism , the closest thing to it, is nothing more than a perversion of Marxism. There is nor was there ever a communist country where the working class reached the utopia promised. They were and are nothing more that police states where the workers are oppressed. Until they finally do unite to over throw the oppressors, if anything communism is self destructive as the USSR , Poland, etc. have shown us.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:49:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2002 6:50:01 AM EDT by DScott]
Democrats = Marxists Marxists = Oppressor of the white male Oppression of the white mail = mail box bombings Therefore: Democrats cause mail box bombings That explains it. Got it.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:54:11 AM EDT
a strong organized Marxist movement
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Marxism only existed in the minds of its authors Marx and Engles, they made broad assumptions about human nature and underestimated the drives of greed,power and hate
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They utilized all of those things not in the production of wealth but in the eradicating of the ability to create wealth.
. Communism , the closest thing to it, is nothing more than a perversion of Marxism. There is nor was there ever a communist country where the working class reached the utopia promised. They were and are nothing more that police states where the workers are oppressed. Until they finally do unite to over throw the oppressors, if anything communism is self destructive as the USSR , Poland, etc. have shown us
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Yes the Collectivist/Marxist/Socialist/Communist movements are all self-abasing. self-consuming ideologies. They consume the producers, like so many parasites, and when the producers are consumed they consume themselves until their is only one person left, and since it is almost always those who can't fend for themselves that are of the above ideology that last person dies from starvation as well.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:06:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Democrats = Marxists Marxists = Oppressor of the white male Oppression of the white mail = mail box bombings Therefore: Democrats cause mail box bombings That explains it. Got it.
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There are so many logical fallacies in your attempt to [strike]distort[/strike] recap my statement that I won't even begin to address them. However, being the magnanimous invividual that I am, and wishing to positively reinforce any learning that may have occurred on your part, I'll bend over backwards to glean out the miniscule worthwhile parts of your post [;)] and re-state for your benefit - Marxist Democrats have intentionally created an environment hostile to white males that whether intentionally or unintentionally, I don't know, tends to drive the unstable among them to commit horrendous crimes, as evidenced by the fact that white, and NOT black males are the ones who perpetrate these crimes. (Given the Marxists assertions that conservative gov't has created a class of oppressed black males, one would expect BLACK and NOT white males to be doing these sorts of things. ANd in our legal system, those who proximately cause others to commit crimes are themselves legally (as well as morally) culpable. Remember, I'm pointing the finger of blame at [b[Marxist[/b] Democrats. Dems like Zell Miller, D (GA) are not in that group.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:13:39 AM EDT
Just following *your* logic, oh worthy one. [:P] White males pipe bomb mail boxes, while black males sell drugs, join gangs and engage in a whole host of other criminal activities, shoot each other in drive-bys, and end up dead or in the care of the criminal justice system, at higher rates than their proportional representation in the population, it seems. If oppression caused crime, those little details should convince you that the black man is truly oppressed, contrary to your original statement. Do the Marxist Democrats oppress them too? It's your world, I'm just vacationing in it... [;)]
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:22:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rogerb: Marxism only existed in the minds of its authors Marx and Engles, they made broad assumptions about human nature and underestimated the drives of greed,power and hate. Communism , the closest thing to it, is nothing more than a perversion of Marxism. There is nor was there ever a communist country where the working class reached the utopia promised.
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For clarities sake, it is true that Marxism never delivered and will never deliver the promised Utopia, but this DOES NOT minimize the fact that Marxist principles are VERY REAL and being practiced in this country today. My six points above (and I could give you a dozen more) are PROOF. In short, Communism is Marxism in practice, and socialism is benevolent Communism (without a gun pointing at you)
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:35:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Just following *your* logic, oh worthy one. [:P] White males pipe bomb mail boxes, while black males sell drugs, join gangs and engage in a whole host of other criminal activities, shoot each other in drive-bys, and end up dead or in the care of the criminal justice system, at higher rates than their proportional representation in the population, it seems.
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No you are NOT following my logic - you are attempting to put words in my mouth. NOWHERE did I include gang violence, drug dealing, drive-by shootings in this discussion. YOU did that. [b]KNOCK IT OFF[/b], or I see no point in discussing with you. I'm talking about a SPECIFIC type of REACTIONARY activity, directed SPECIFICALLY against gov't agencies, by a certain SPECIFIC subset of a culture. Drug dealing etc has NOTHING to do with my thesis.
If oppression caused crime, those little details should convince you that the black man is truly oppressed, contrary to your original statement. Do the Marxist Democrats oppress them too? [;)]
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My point was NEVER that oppression causes gang-banging drug dealers to commit crime - the "profit motive" does that. I'm saying that the specific terrorist activities of white males is VERY likely caused by oppressive gov't. Lending creedence to this theory is the fact that black males DO NOT engage in this type of behaviour. My theory re: this is that black males are NOT repressed by teh gov't as the Marxists claim they are. In fact, black males are coddled and significantly benefit from gov't activities, all at the expense of the white male, both financially and emotionally. If you CANNOT keep on track with that line of thought, then we are done. You are hung up on the word "crime." let it go. I'm talking about "terrorism" by white males (which just happens to BE a crime) and its causes. FOCUS.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 9:30:55 AM EDT
I don't see the conspiracy. The profile indicating that the suspect is white is based on statistics, example most serial kills are white males so when the police are looking for a serial killer they usually start with white males. I would also guess they also reviewed the structure and grammar used in the letter to make an educated guess at the age, race, state of mind, and level of education of the suspect. Based on the rambling letter I read I would assume the guy has a cognitive disorder. Since he was able to construct a pipe bomb I would assume that he has some mechanical ability and has worked with mechanical devices. Since he has some mechanical skills, he started in the midwest, and he seems to travel in rural areas without drawing attention, my guess would be he was raised on a farm or in a rural area. I would also say he has experienced a life changing event such a divorce, termination, death of a family member recently. Anyone want to start a pool?
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 11:32:33 AM EDT
FLASH Suspect named............. But officials at the University of Wisconsin at Stout told MSNBC.com that the school was alerting students and faculty that authorities are seeking a student enrolled there, said university spokesman John Enger. “The FBI has notified us that a currently enrolled student, Luke J. Helder, is a prime suspect in the mailbox pipe bombs. We do not believe he is on campus or in Menomonie or in Wisconsin at this time,” read the campus-wide email being sent out, Enger said. A Web site lists Luke Helder, a junior at the university majoring in industrial design, as a guitar player and vocalist with the rock band Apathy. The band recorded an album, “Sacks of People” for “Last Minute Records” in 2000. The lead track was called “Conformity
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 11:50:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: FLASH Suspect named............. But officials at the University of Wisconsin at Stout told MSNBC.com that the school was alerting students and faculty that authorities are seeking a student enrolled there, said university spokesman John Enger. “The FBI has notified us that a currently enrolled student, Luke J. Helder, is a prime suspect in the mailbox pipe bombs. We do not believe he is on campus or in Menomonie or in Wisconsin at this time,” read the campus-wide email being sent out, Enger said. A Web site lists Luke Helder, a junior at the university majoring in industrial design, as a guitar player and vocalist with the rock band Apathy. The band recorded an album, “Sacks of People” for “Last Minute Records” in 2000. The lead track was called “Conformity
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Anybody know this prick?? They also said that he's driving a grey Honda Accord. If any of you find this guy before the government does.....you know what to do with him!
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 12:14:24 PM EDT
You said:
Originally Posted By garandman: ...re-state for your benefit - Marxist Democrats have intentionally created an environment hostile to white males that whether intentionally or unintentionally, I don't know, tends to drive the unstable among them to commit horrendous crimes, as evidenced by the fact that white, and NOT black males are the ones who perpetrate these crimes. (Given the Marxists assertions that conservative gov't has created a class of oppressed black males, one would expect BLACK and NOT white males to be doing these sorts of things.
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Note the words "crimes", and that these crimes are the result of the "environment hostile" to white males by Marxists. Then you go on to say that it's the Marxist Democrats... etc., etc. See the link yet? Democrats = Marxists = white male oppressor = cause of crimes Therefore: Democrats cause mail box bombings Or simply, marxism causes reactionary acts (crimes) by those it oppresses. Si' o no?
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 12:24:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: I don't see the conspiracy. The profile indicating that the suspect is white is based on statistics, example most serial kills are white males so when the police are looking for a serial killer they usually start with white males.
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The conspiracy theory is in the REALITY, the FACT that white males ARE the ones who do these sorts of things. For YEARS the marxist Democrats have told us that conservative gov't policies have created an underclass of repressed black males, who logic would dictate SHOULD be hostile toward gov't. Accordingly, one would expect that it would be BLACK males that would be the ones lashing out against their repressors in domestic terrorist acts against the US gov't, like these pipe bombings, or Tim McVeigh - style attacks. But it isn't. Its white males. Leading me to think that indeed there IS a subculture of repressed individuals - white males. And they are lashing out in the fashion you would expect against whom you would expect. And my contention is that years of exploitation of the white man by these marxist Democrats has created this profile of the "angry white male" who is tired of doing right, working hard, paying his own way only to be taxed to death by an an overburdensome tax structure, having the deck stacked against him by racial quotas, set asides and gov't perks for EVERYONE but him, and him being blamed for all the ills that are in society. The stable ones find other ways to deal with it - the unstable one are mad as hell, and aren't gonna take it anymore. JUST ONE idiot making pipe bombs gives the Marxists EXACTLY what they want - something to perpetuate the Marxist stero-type of "angry white males" being the bane of society, when all along, the Marxists drove him to his reprehensible actions.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 12:36:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Note the words "crimes", and that these crimes are the result of the "environment hostile" to white males by Marxists. Then you go on to say that it's the Marxist Democrats... etc., etc. See the link yet? Democrats = Marxists = white male oppressor = cause of crimes Therefore: Democrats cause mail box bombings
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AGAIN, don't get hung on the word "crime." Pipe bombings HAPPEN to be a crime, that's all . The PRIMARY motivation for almost all PROACTIVE (where the criminal initiates the criminal sequence)crimes is some version of the "profit motive."
Or simply, marxism causes reactionary acts (crimes) by those it oppresses. Si' o no?
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Summarily, YES, this is what I'm saying. To flesh it out, Marxist policies, as promoted by many Democrats, have oppressed white males to the point where the more unstable ones are [b]RE[/b]acting out of violence against the gov't whose marxist policies has beaten them into the dirt. (where the crimes are REACTIONARY against a set of circumstances NOT set in motion by the oppressed white male)
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 12:56:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: If oppression caused crime, those little details should convince you that the black man is truly oppressed, contrary to your original statement. Do the Marxist Democrats oppress them too?
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Actually, yes, insofar as Marxism oppresses everone. And those who started "lower" on the ladder, with increasing adherence to Marxist economic policies, are likely to remain there longer. And they lose their ability to rise. Black prosperity was actually rising [/i]faster[/i] in the United States before the "war on poverty" existed. Black illegitimacy (the cause of a majority of current problems) exploded with the rise of welfare porgrams and the sexual revolution - all of which were championed, and still are, by leftist Democrats. Not to mention that magnificent beacon of progress and enlightenment: the inner city public school.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 12:59:24 PM EDT
Or they're just crazy, and don't fit in no matter *who* is in charge. Simply put, thinking a pipe bomb in a mail box will change things is delusional. Consider natural distribution described by the bell curve, and describe to me those who fit out on those tails. You know, +/- 4, 5 or 6 standard deviations out. Pipe bombers? Surely.
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