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Posted: 5/6/2002 5:48:53 PM EDT
Last saturday night some little s%$@#! broke into my car and stole my cd player. It was parked right outside my house on the street. I live in a residential suburban area. If I had caught him in the act, what would my options have been? He's not "in" my house, rather on public property (the street), yet he's vandalizing/stealing my property. Are we legally able to shoot in this situation? Would it make a difference if he were in my driveway or garage rather than the street? Personally, I think shooting would have been a liability given there are houses on the other side of the street plus the factor of hitting my own car. But that aside, would it have been legal? We usually discuss "in home" defense, but this is a new twist. Thanks for any comments...
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 5:57:39 PM EDT
FIRST: Lethal force in defense of property (as opposed to human life) is not allowed. That is important for you to realize. Now, generally, you may THREATEN deadly force (but not USE IT) in defense of property. HOWEVER, TX is unique in the way that they allow deadly force in defense of property IN VERY RARE SITUATIONS. You need to see a lawyer to find out why- I am not licensed to practice law in TX, and am not giving you legal advice. I do recall a repo man who attempted to repo a man's truck at 3am, the man shot him, and was acquitted by a TX jury, because it fit this criteria. Talk to an attorney, police officer, judge, or all three about this, BEFORE you do anything that may ruin your life.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:01:10 PM EDT
Colorado's "make my day" law allows you to defend your property as well. You would probably be charged in your scenerio, however.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:01:29 PM EDT
Edited to say that TX is a very unique state. Another example- most states recognize something called "treasure trove." Basically, if you find a buried treasure, it goes to the finder, and NOT the property owner. TX is the ONLY state that says it goes to the PROPERTY OWNER and not the finder. Totally off topic, but an example of how weird TX can be with its laws. Take my advice for what it is worth- friendly advice- of course, you could also tell me to have a nice cup of "shut the fuck up."
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:04:19 PM EDT
I don't know about Texas, but here in North Carolina you can't use deadly force to protect your property. Hell, If you have the scumbag at gunpoint, and he decides to walk away, there is not much you can do then! But If he is outside and is trying to get inside you home you can shoot through the door! Figure that one out! Vulcan94
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:08:56 PM EDT
We lived in Texas for 14 years. It is legal to use deadly force against someone [b]in the act[/b] of committing a felony. But you better be real sure it's a felony. Two or three years ago in Dallas a guy saw 4 people stealing his gold rims off his car at night. He used an AK-47 from his bedroom window and killed 3 of them. (Pretty amazing for an AK!) Anyway, the DA brought charges, but the Grand Jury returned a no bill (they refused to charge him with a crime) because what he did was legal under Texas law. Please do not take this as gospel and check with an attorney. Laws change.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:14:49 PM EDT
In AZ you may say you might use lethal force, but may not, UNLESS, that action produces a weapon by the perp. problem is those professional thieves are tooooo fast. sorry for your loss, makes one angry huh. ________________________- remember, don't flinch
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:18:21 PM EDT
Here in TX, I believe that you can shoot to defend your property or your neighbor's property if its at night and there is a good chance that your stolen property can not be recovered. I love TX.......its one of the few states where honest citizens actually have more rights than the criminals! DSR-1 TX A&M class 2000 : )
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:21:31 PM EDT
ditto what the last fella said- that is also what I have read, see my first post for the standard legal warnings. Be safe
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 7:10:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2002 7:30:30 PM EDT by Ponyboy]
In the state of Texas, it is legal to use lethal force to stop criminal mischief at night. Criminal mischief covers a huge range of crimes including breaking into your car. I don't think I would come out firing if I found someone in my car, but they'd definitely get to look down the muzzle end of the first firearm that was handy. Then I'd let them decide on whether it escalates from there. Ponyboy- with the virtually worthless criminal justice degree...... [b]Edited to add --- Remember, just because you might not be held criminally responsible for acting within your rights that doesn't mean you can't get sued in civilly.[/b] Here is the applicable statute: [b]§ 9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and (3) he reasonably believes that: (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.[/b]
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 7:38:56 PM EDT
Why do so many people who admit they are talking out of their ass have to respond? Ponyboy has the right answer. There is a tagger that has been working a certain street near my 14 story office building. I fantasize about plinking the spray-can out of his hand with a tricked out 10/22 from the top of the building. Now that would be a deterrent to criminal-mischief!
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 7:50:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Texason: Why do so many people who admit they are talking out of their ass have to respond? Ponyboy has the right answer. There is a tagger that has been working a certain street near my 14 story office building. I fantasize about plinking the spray-can out of his hand with a tricked out 10/22 from the top of the building. Now that would be a deterrent to criminal-mischief!
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and let me take this oportunity to thank you for adding SO much to this thread. Good work Tex! Feel better now? [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 8:04:25 PM EDT
Ponyboy is correct about the use of deadly force in TX. But remember-- its only a defense to prosecution. Here's section 9.41 from the TX Penal Code, which was referenced in PonyBoy's post: SUBCHAPTER D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY Sec. 9.41. Protection of One's Own Property (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property. (b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and: (1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or (2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor. Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994. For more on TX statutes: [url]http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/statutes.html[/url]
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 10:59:58 PM EDT
Back in olden times redneck farmers would defend their watermelon patches with shotguns loaded with rocksalt. It wouldn't kill anyone & not really cause much damage but it would burn like HELL once it penetrated a thief's skin. On the flip side I would have a back-up of the real sort, just in case.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 11:22:08 PM EDT
What is the most recent example of an assult on property recognized as an assult on an individual's body. Something which is currently recognized only as the "invisible" cost of crime. I suspect examples exist as late as the 1950's but current practise would probably equate it with the middle ages. Dan
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 11:28:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BobCole: Back in olden times redneck farmers would defend their watermelon patches with shotguns loaded with rocksalt. It wouldn't kill anyone & not really cause much damage but it would burn like HELL once it penetrated a thief's skin.
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. . . unless, of course, one of the chunks of salt happened to tear the watermelon-stealing kid's eye out. Which is why it's no longer legal to do that sort of crap.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 1:17:02 AM EDT
It could be much worse. Try coping with the juvenile justice system, as one must, when the perp is a minor. Often the P.D. will not issue a copy of the incident report as it contains a minor's name. This can make it inconvenient to document an insurance claim. It becomes necessary to petition for a court order to receive the incident report, which will then be censored to remove the perp's identity. It is a second petition to seek the release of his name. This is not automaticly granted, the petition must be justified. It goes down hill from here. Yes, the victim has all those rights which he pursues, but human services, the courts and the police by their very actions protect the rights of the other party. The system then is mystified when the public fails to become involved. I can't help but wonder how different this particular situation would have been if the gas tank had been vandalized at the same time. The laws protecting the soil are severe and vicously enforced. In addition, as it happened in the street it would have been a significant expense to the municipality. The contaminated soil must be removed and disposed of properly. I hope the young vandal who was caned in Singapore a few years ago now appreciates the society which taugh him respect for property. Dan
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 1:20:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2002 1:20:23 AM EDT by Waverunner]
Originally Posted By dissipator556: FIRST: Lethal force in defense of property (as opposed to human life) is not allowed. That is important for you to realize.
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That is true, as I understand it, in NY. I've had my brand new, right off the dealer lot, car broken into and wanted to go to war!
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 1:39:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 4:07:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By dissipator556: FIRST: Lethal force in defense of property (as opposed to human life) is not allowed. That is important for you to realize. Now, generally, you may THREATEN deadly force (but not USE IT) in defense of property. HOWEVER, TX is unique in the way that they allow deadly force in defense of property IN VERY RARE SITUATIONS. You need to see a lawyer to find out why- I am not licensed to practice law in TX, and am not giving you legal advice. I do recall a repo man who attempted to repo a man's truck at 3am, the man shot him, and was acquitted by a TX jury, because it fit this criteria. Talk to an attorney, police officer, judge, or all three about this, BEFORE you do anything that may ruin your life.
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Even the "threaten" part could land you in trouble. In FL, and I suspect other states, it would be "brandishing." Now, if you had a CWL, and you went out to ask the guy what he was doing to your car (weapon still concealed), AND he then attacked you with deadly force, you MIGHT have some ground to stand on. It would be a very gray area, a minefield of technicalities a liberal and/or ambitious DA might go after. Yes, you would be sued, as well.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:09:43 AM EDT
this is why i like south carolina, the SOB cant sue you. even if you bobbitize him he cant sue you. IF he was in your home, and the law considers your car a extenstion of your home. and arm in the car could be considered in your home. basicly if someone wants to break into a home the better PRAY the owner has not guns. home break-in rates have dropped because of that law. crooks just arnt interested in the risk with no gain. Disclaimer : I'm not a lawyer, my words are not written in stone, check the law. and... Shoot Straight.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:33:51 AM EDT
I never ceased to be amazed by the cretins who have absolutely no clue what they're talking about but still feel free to dispense advice.
Originally Posted By dissipator556: FIRST: Lethal force in defense of property (as opposed to human life) is not allowed. That is important for you to realize. Now, generally, you may THREATEN deadly force (but not USE IT) in defense of property. HOWEVER, TX is unique in the way that they allow deadly force in defense of property IN VERY RARE SITUATIONS. You need to see a lawyer to find out why- I am not licensed to practice law in TX, and am not giving you legal advice.
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You don't need to be a lawyer to see that dissipator556 is totally and completely wrong. Contrary to what he says, it is legal to use deadly force to protect property in Texas. This "VERY RARE SITUATION" that dissipator556 makes reference to is called "night." As you can see from the previously posted TX criminal codes, SliPkNoT would have been totally justified in blowing the perpetrator's brains all over the street. People, if you have no idea what you're talking about, the least you could do is to [b]shut up[/b]!!! Now, on to the Car Problem - SliPkNoT, you need to get an alarm for your car. I, too, live in a nice surburban neighborhood, but the lowlifes commute into this area to steal. I bought my first alarm after the first time they bashed my window and ripped out my stereo. I wish I would've gotten it sooner, and now every car I buy has an alarm before I bring it home. A good alarm will cost about $100, $200 for a deluxe model. Either way, the cost of the alarm is cheaper than fixing a window or replacing the CD player. And the next time some little shit tries to break into your ride it'll make enough noise to wake you up so you can run out of the house with your AR and shoot the perp in the back as he runs down the street. (Legal in Texas, no matter what that moron dissipator556 says.) If you're handy with cars and tools, check out [url=www.crutchfield.com]Crutchfield[/url] for alarm systems with custom adapters that plug directly into your specific vehicle's wiring harness. I've used these and they work great! Without an alarm, it's just a matter of time until you get hit again.
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