From Bryce Lockwood, crew member of the USS Liberty:  

"Well, looks like it's over with.  I guess I'm coming home LORD."

Excerpted from:  Body of Secrets; Bamford, James; Doubleday 2001; page 217

Post from 5subslr5 -

When the messenger changes his message from his 1982 book, The Puzzle Palace, to the one in his current book, Body of Secrets, in 2001, then, yes, I feel it necessary to 'attack the messenger.'

You need to read Cristol's book.

BTW, neither Bamford nor Cristol was aboard the USS Liberty in 1967, so all of their info is second hand!

Eric The(Even-Handed)Hun[>]:)]

I have my suspicions tho. [:D]



Funny you would use the phrase "King of the Jews" as it was a title NEVER claimed by Christ Himself, but one used by those who murdered my Saviour  to frame Him in front of Pontius Pilate and the Roman authority.

Interesting indeed.



Tell me, if I get a Super Soaker squirt gun, and just hose 'em down real good, would that count for salvation as well??? [}:D]





Sorry, never read Bamford's stuff. HAVE extensively read the Bible, tho. And Scripture  I have presented here re: Israel you almost EXCLUSIVELY refuse to discuss.

E.T. HUN,

first you attack messenger Branford and now the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty by Israel is just a MISTAKE.

My friend, and I truly do believe you are my friend, I'm going to let you run with the Israel-made-a-mistake theory for a while and then I am going to cut you off at the knees.
----------------------------------------------

"At least Lois and the kids are taken care of.  There were twenty-five men that were killed all around me.  The torpedo struck dead center in the NSA spaces, KILLING nearly everyone inside, some by the initial blast and others by drowning....."

Excerpted from:  Body of Secrets; Bamford, James; Doubleday 2001; page 217

Post from 5subslr5 -

Of course, I am your friend! But this 'cut you off at the knees' talk is pretty scary!

Go ahead and do the cutting, now, if you please. It's not likely I'm going to change my mind without new, and I mean brand new, evidence of Israel's deliberateness!

Nothing I read in either Bamford book was enough to make me alter my view.

Eric The(Easy-Going)Hun[>]:)]

I was speaking metaphorically about the "knees" !
------------------------------------------------

"He's hit her (the USS Liberty) a lot, reported an ISRAELI Army commander at El Arish, where the (Israeli) WAR CRIMES were taking place."

Excerpted from:  Body of Secrets; Bamford, James; Doubleday 2001; page 212

garandman or anyone,
is it true that Christanity cannot be preached in the strets of Israel ??

NO FLAME - REAL QUESTION !

One more time.

[size=4]GULF WAR'S FRIENDLY FIRE TALLY TRIPLES
PENTAGON: 35 DIED IN ACCIDENTAL ATTACKS[/size=4]
By Barton Gellman, Washington Post
August 14, 1991

"The Pentagon disclosed yesterday that 35 of the 148 American servicemen and women who perished on the battlefield in the Persian Gulf War were killed inadvertently by their comrades, an extraordinary proportion by historical standards and more than three times the number previously acknowledged."

"Friendly fire," or accidental attacks on U.S. troops by other U.S. troops, also accounted for 72 of 467 Americans wounded in action, according to a summary released of a comprehensive assessment by the military services. Senior officers who briefed reporters yesterday withheld nearly all details of the 28 friendly fire incidents, including the names of the casualties, their specific units below division levels and most of the circumstances of their deaths and injuries."

"Accounting for more than 23 percent of the Americans killed in action and 15 percent of the wounded, friendly fire now appears to have caused about 10 times as high a percentage of U.S. battle casualties in the gulf as in any other 20th-century war. Though the military has not gathered official statistics before on such cases, a widely cited 1986 Army study by Lt. Col. Charles R. Shrader suggested that friendly fire caused "a statistically insignificant portion of total casualties" from World War I to Vietnam, "perhaps less than 2 percent."

"Marine Lt. Gen. Martin L. Brandtner acknowledged in the news briefing that the proportion of friendly fire casualties was higher than in any previous war and called it a matter of "grave concern." But he cautioned against direct comparisons, arguing that the intensity of the gulf battlefield was unlike any before it and suggesting that friendly fire in earlier conflicts was probably undercounted."

"Yesterday's summary, which concentrated exclusively on American forces, did not include the war's worst episode of friendly fire: [b]a Feb. 26 attack by Air Force A-10s on two British Warrior armored vehicles, which killed nine Britons and wounded 11.[/b] A British investigation exonerated the British troops, all members of the 3d Battalion Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, but drew no conclusion on the culpability of the pilots."

BTW, the United States [u]refused[/u] to allow any US troops to testify in connection with the British investigation of this incident!

Not exactly playing 'cricket', now is it?

Here's a listing of the Gulf War 'friendly fire' incidents:

JANUARY 23

Air Force A-10 Thunderbolt fired on a 1st Marine Division observation post; no casualties.

JANUARY 24

One Marine and one sailor from 1st Marine Expeditionary Force wounded when an A-10 strafed a Marine Humvee and a five-ton truck about 60 miles west of Khafji, Saudi Arabia.

JANUARY 29

Four Marines from 1st Marine Division killed when a TOW missile fired from a light armored vehicle (LAV) hit their LAV west of Khafji.

Seven killed, two wounded in 1st Marine Division when a Maverick missile fired by an A-10 malfunctioned and hit an LAV.

FEBRUARY 2

One killed, two wounded in 1st Marine Division by 500-pound bombs when their vehicles were mistaken for Iraqi vehicles during attack by Marine A-6E jet.

Two wounded in 1st Cavalry Division when HARM missile fired by Air Force F-4G missed target.

- continued -

FEBRUARY 4

Suspected HARM landed near USS Nicholas with minimal damage to the ship and no casualties.

FEBRUARY 14

Three soldiers from 1st Infantry Division wounded in skirmish in Arky Amah Al Jadid, Saudi Arabia.

FEBRUARY 15

A-6E pilot from USS Kennedy reported he was fired upon by a surface-to-air missile; no casualties.

FEBRUARY 17

Two killed, six wounded in 1st Infantry Division and one ground surveillance vehicle damaged when Hellfire missile from AH-64 Apache helicopter struck their Bradley Fighting Vehicle (BFV).

FEBRUARY 23

One killed, one wounded in 1st Marine Division when a HARM from unknown source struck radar unit.

FEBRUARY 24

One killed in 1st Marine Division when a tank opened fire on his convoy.

Suspected HARM apparently lands close to USS Jarrett with no casualties or damage to the ship.

FEBRUARY 25

USS Jarrett fired at a chaff rocket launched by USS Missouri, resulting in superficial damage to Missouri but no casualties.

FEBRUARY 26

Three killed, three wounded in 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment when machine gun fire from a tank hit their armored personnel carrier.

One killed in 3rd Armored Division when premature burst of artillery round hit his vehicle.

Five wounded in 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment when their BFV was misidentified and hit by a TOW.

M-1A1 tank opened fire on two others; none injured.

Two killed, six wounded in 3rd Armored Division when their BFV, operating in reduced visibility, was fired upon by an M-1A1.

M-1A1 opened fire on two BFVs operating in reduced visibility; no casualties.

FEBRUARY 27

Six killed, 25 wounded in 2nd Armored Division when M-1A1s opened fire on five other M-1A1s and five BFVs that were fighting enemy forces.

Two killed, nine wounded in 24th Infantry Division after an M-1A1 misidentified and fired at three BFVs.

One killed, one wounded in 1st Infantry Division when an M-1A1 misidentified two BFVs at night in the rain and opened fire.

One killed, two wounded in 1st Armored Division when an M-1A1 misidentified and fired at two BFVs operating in rain and smoke at night during an attack on a bunker complex.

Two killed, two wounded in 3rd Armored Division when their vehicle, operating at night in reduced visibility, was fired upon by an M-1A1.

One killed, one wounded in 1st Armored Division by machine gun fire when they were mistaken for Iraqis.

MARCH 27

USS Avenger received small arms fire in vicinity of Ras Al Qalayah; no casualties.

Tragic mistakes during wartime occur.

No one has shown that the USS Liberty was anything other than a tragic mistake.

Eric The(Continuing)Hun[>]:)]

Exerpt from [u]Israeli Attack on U.S. Ship Reveals Failure of C3[/u] by [b]James M. Ennes, Jr.[/b], the crypto specialist and Deck Officer of the USS Liberty, in [i][b]Electronics Defense Magazine[/b][/i] in 1981:

"The United States made several serious, almost frantic attempts to move the ship. As the Liberty approached Gaza, the Joint Chiefs of Staff first sent a priority message ordering the ship to move [b]20 miles[/b] from the coast; the message was swamped by higher precedence traffic and was not processed until long after the crisis had ended. Hours later, a JCS duty officer phoned naval headquarters in London to relay an urgent JCS order to move the ship [b]100 miles[/b] from the coast; the telephone call was ignored, and Liberty's copy of the confirming message was misrouted to the Philipines before being returned to the Pentagon, where it was again misrouted, this time to Fort Meade in Maryland, where it was lost."

"Eventually, at least six critical messages were lost, delayed, or otherwise mishandled. Any one of those messages might have saved Liberty. None reached the ship."

Yet, when Israel asks the United States about its ships, the US authoritatively says 'We have no naval vessels within 100 miles of the Coast.'

Eric The(Yes,That'sTheSameEnnesFellow!)Hun[>]:)]

That is my understanding.

My sister-in-law went there on a missions trip.

She was told that they way in which they should hand out gospel literature was to throw it out the window of a moving bus. ANyone caught preaching Christ or handing out Chritian literature would be jailed.

In addition, let me go ahead and provide you the pro_Israel pablum you'll get in response to your question and my response -

1. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle east.

2. What do you expect Israel to do to people preaching another religion other than their own???

How the Israel supporters can say BOTH 1 and 2 above defies logic.

The same could be said of the Holocaust story.  Does that mean you don't believe it either?

Was Eli Wiesel lying when he wrote that you could tell what geographic region a Jew was from by the color of the flames coming from the chimney?  Or was he just exagerating a little?

If you don't believe the Liberty story because of one person who you claim changes his story then you must have abandoned the Holocaust story a long time ago because of all the contradictions.

This is an analogy, not an attempt to disprove the Holocaust.

No Losers - there should be only one winner - that takes care off the problem - If you have a loser he might come back

Does it matter what they would have gained?  Do you believe that what you see can be taken at face value?  I don't.  I'm no conspiracy theorist, so I won't guess, but the fact of the matter remains that a US ship flying the 50 stars was attacked in international waters without provocation.  Whether an Egyptian attack had occured in the same area (or accidental munitions explosion) or not, an army, navy or airforce is required to positively identify its enemy before firing upon them.  

Israel was wrong no matter how you look at it Eric.  Defending them without reason defies your lawyer logic.  Like I said before, sometimes you have to step back from your ally when their actions are this aggregious.  They failed to ID the ship, failed to try to contact the ship and failed to recognize a US ship in international waters for a 30 minute attack.

EricThe(SelDeluded)Hun -

Comparing the Gulf War FF casualties with the Liberty incident FFC's is dishonest in the extreme, and a tactic no logically honest person would use, in at least two aspects:

1. An entire [b]WAR[/b] producing 35 FFC's CANNOT be compared to an hour and fifteen minute long incident producing 34FFC's.

2. The gulf War FFC's occurred during nightime, the fog of war, with Iraqis shooting back.  The Liberty incident occurred during the MIDDLE FO THE FRIGGEN DAY, ON A CALM SEA, WITH NO ONE FIRING BACK AT TEH ISRAELIS.

Puh-lease.

I could give about a dozen more aspects that your analogy is logically bereft, but the two above are sufficient to PROVE you got "brown eyes."

And Mnman is right - it DOES NOT MATTER what the motivation of the Israelis in attacking the USS Liberty was (I've ALREADY provided a REAL solid motive, and will NOT do so again)

Regardless of what teh motive was, ALL the factual, concrete evidence speak against this being considered an FFC.

I know you know I'm right. What I haven't completely figgered out is why you won't admit it. My suspicion is there is some personal / business / financial / ideological barrier keeping you from admitting the truth.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I beleive you are the ONLY Israel supporter here loudly excusing the Israelis unconscionable actions against the Liberty. At least the other Israel supporters here have the logical integrity to admit that it WAS a deliberate attack that occurred too long ago to matter now.

not all Jews are Israeli. So as I've said, for the most part, the Jews I know are nice people. I've never met any Israeli Jews, it could be just that the desert climate turn them into nasty Jews. I got nothing against the IDF as long as they don't shoot up my neighborhood.

Post from garandman -

Although I have pretty much relegated your posts to the trash bin, in my own mind, I must at least correct you (for what must be the umpteenth time) that I do not 'excuse' what the Israelis did regarding the attack on the USS Liberty.

I simply say that it was a tragic error that wasn't done purposefully or deliberately by the Israelis.

You think differently, same as [b]subsailor[/b] and a virtual majority of the folks who bother posting on this subject.

But if the reason for the attack is the same as you stated in your last ill-informed post on this subject, you should be aware that your idol, James Bamford, has retreated from his earlier position regarding the reason for the Israelis to deliberately attack the US ship.

You really should keep up with these changes.

The purpose of my post was to indicate that even in the highly sophisticated days of the Gulf War, there were incidents of 'friendly fire.' Simple enough, for you?

Oh, so you know that all those FF incidents occurred at night or during sandstorms? Could you elaborate on the source of your knowledge?

Wrong, wrong, wrong. [b]garandman[/b], you read military history the way you read the Bible! The attack on the USS Liberty occurred during wartime, in a fight for Israel's very existence, with pilots that had been flying combat missions around the clock for more than 72 hours!

'On a calm sea?' You'd better watch that kind of talk, I thought that one of the main points of those urging Israeli deceit was that the US flag was fluttering proudly in the breeze? It was the Israelis who alleged that the seas and winds were calm!

Once again, you have not read your assignment!

- continued -

From the Naval Board of Inquiry transcript:

1428 [LOG:] MTB SIGNALLING BY FLASHING LIGHT FROM STBD QUARTER. LIGHT OBSCURED BY DENSE SMOKE FROM BURNING MOTOR WHALEBOAT.
 
[CAPT. McGonagle:] When the boats reached an approximate range of 2,000 yards, [b]the center boat of the formation was signaling to us.  Also, at this range, it appeared that they were flying an Israeli flag[/b].  This was later verified.  [b]It was not possible to read the signals from the center torpedo boat because of the intermittent blocking of view by smoke and flames[/b].
 
1430 [LOG:] ONE ROUND FIRED BY MACHINE GUN 51.  C.O. ORDERED HOLD FIRE.
 
[CAPT. McGonagle:] At this time, I yelled to machine gun 51 to tell him to hold fire.  [b]I realized that there was a possibility of the aircraft having been Israeli and the attack had been conducted in error.[/b] I wanted to hold fire to see if we could read the signal from the torpedo boat and perhaps avoid additional damage and personnel injuries. The man on machine gun 51 fired a short burst at the boats before he was able to understand what I was attempting to have him do.
 
1431 [LOG:] [b]MACHINE GUN 53 OPENED FIRE[/b].  C.O. SENT ENS LUCAS AROUND PORT SIDE OF BRIDGE TO GET MACHINE GUN 53 TO CEASE FIRING
 
[CAPT. McGonagle:] Instantly, on machine gun 51 opening fire machine gun 53 began firing at the center boat.  From the starboard wing of the bridge, 03 level, I observed that the fire from machine gun 53 was extremely effective and blanketed the area and the center torpedo boat.  It was not possible to get to mount 53 from the starboard wing of the bridge. I sent Mr. LUCAS around the port side of the bridge, around to the skylights, to see if he could tell QUINTERO, whom I believed to be the gunner on Machine gun 53, to hold fire until we were able to clarify the situation.  He reported back in a few minutes in effect that he saw no one at mount 53.
 
[CAPT. McGonagle:] On further recollection of the event involving machine gun 53 firing, the effectiveness of the firing leads me to believe that a person, whom I believe to be QUINTERO, Boatswain Mate Seaman, to have been on station at machine gun 53 and took the torpedo boats under fire.   It is possible that he evacuated his station as a result of the fire and flames from the motor whaleboat
prior to Ensign Lucas' arriving to determine who was on the mount.  [49]
 
[CAPT. McGonagle:] [b]As far as the torpedo boats are concerned, I am sure that they felt that they were under fire from USS LIBERTY[/b]. [39]
 
1431 [LOG:] WORD PASSED TO STANDBY FOR TORPEDO ATTACK TO STARBOARD. MTB COMMENCED STRAFING STARBOARD SIDE OF SHIP 
 
So, [b]garandman, on June 10, 1967, the Commanding Officer of the USS Liberty testified that (1) the USS Liberty fired on the Israeli MTBs, (2) that the Israeli MTBs tried to signal the USS Liberty, and (3) that the C.O. believed that there was a possibility that the Israeli air attack was conducted in error!

Why don't you already know these things?

Eric The(MustNotBeImportant?)Hun[>]:)]

"Jews:love em or not?"



They're crunchy! Now with a soft caremel center!

I thought I remembered this fact from someone's previous post of several weeks ago.

Many of us spent many years damning the Soviet Union for their lack of religious freedoms.  Today we do the same with China and correctly so.

Eric,
how do you reconcile your Christian faith and your support for Israel ??  Or do you contend that garandman's post is not accurate ??

Again, no flames intended - real question.

Minman,

E.T. HUN knows precisely why the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty and that's why I ignored his question.

The quick answer is that the Israelis were executing POW's (committing war crimes) in the area near El Arish.  The Israeli military was using UHF communications but as the Liberty had closed to about 15 miles of the coast the Israelis were afraid the Liberty might have intercepted some of the radio traffic concerning Egyptian POW executions.

In fact the Liberty had intercepted some of that traffic as had an EC-121 ferret - a U.S. spy plane.  

Eric, we already know the Liberty's Captain lied under oath.

Now LtCol Oliver North also lied under oath.  North thought , right or wrong, that he was serving his president and his country.
Captain McGonagle also lied and lied under oath.  Now whether he lied because he was ordered to lie and believed his lie to be in the best interest of his country or whether he lied to save his career I do no know.
-----------------------------------------------

The attack on the USS Liberty continues.

"The whole irony," said Lockwood, "is that that ISRAELI torpedo struck within just a few feet of the STAR OF DAVID FLAG that had been taped to the starboard bulkhead."

Excerpted from:  Body of Secrets; Bamford, James; Doubleday 2001; page 217

I barely remember what the original question was at this point.

I sincerly enjoy reading these arguements concerning the USS Liberty.  Wouldn't it be better though, to bring back one of the old threads and continue the arguements there instead of taking over this one?

Hey, I felt like bitching about something but my life is going so well that I can't think of anything else to gripe about.

Why don't you prove Garandmans statement is correct first?  Anyone can blurt out a statement, doesnt mean it is true.  Maybe Bamford mentions it in his book?

Was there an original question ??

GLAD your life is going well !!!

Yeah, prehaps our pilots are too incompetent to know where to drop bombs...only four dead Canadians no big deal.  Oops, sorry about that missle hitting your Embassay, Mr. Ambassador from China.  It was a mistake.

Yep thats it....that is just the sort of christian post that makes me want to hurl my supper ( and it was a nice roast pork too).

Mind you it also the sort of post that keeps me laughing at christians as well...

I mean really....!!!

LOL

LOL

LOL!!!

Damn but this is some silly stuff!

Atencio,
as it was garandman's S-I-L other than asking him I don't know how to prove or disprove ???

Bamford's book covers the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty very well but doesn't extend to religious freedoms in Israel.

Specious claim... I don't know what was happening to the g-sister, but if there are Christians in Israel, they do whatever is it that Christians do, including preach.  And there *are* Christians in Israel.  


From CIA Factbook:

Religions: Jewish 80.1%, Muslim 14.6% (mostly Sunni Muslim), Christian 2.1%, other 3.2% (1996 est.)  

[url]http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html[/url]


Is there *any* solid proof that Israel has laws prohibiting Christian missionaries from preaching in Israel?  I'd think that would be quite a controversial bit of legislation, and easy to find.  He said, she said doesn't make much of an arguement.

From the official Israeli website:



[url]http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00n00[/url]

Of course, I realize that facts are not the most important factor in this "discussion".  FWIW.

Christians, Christian churches are all in Israel indicating - to me - that there must be some religious tolerance in the country.
I had remembered a post from weeks ago that indicated Christanity could not be preached there and 'asked' if anyone knew whether or not this was true.

Post from 5subslr5 -

[b]We do?[/b] Who says? I would hate to accuse the winner of the Congressional Medal of Honor with such besmirching of his reputation.

Wow, as I've said so many times before, in order to have it the way James Bamford wants it to be, so many nations and individuals must be sacrificed on the altar of...what?

We have the State of Israel murdering 34 US sailors, in order to cover up murdering 60(?) Egyptian POWs.

We have the United States Navy ordering a Captain to lie about the circumstances of the deaths of men under his command.

We have the President of the United States, the Secretary of War, the Secretary of State, numerous congresscritters, all lying about the circumstances of the deaths of 34 US sailors, and then awarding a CMOH as a bribe to one of its naval officers to continue to lie about the incident.

It may be easier for you to believe all that than to believe that the Israelis made a tragic mistake, but not me.

Eric The(Stunned)Hun[>]:)]

I'm not going to get into the sinking of the Liberty mess, because there is evidence on both sides of the argument, and what anyone believes about the incident is probably dependent on whose set of half truths most impresses him.

I do, however, think it's important to clear up the religious missionary crap that's been made part of this thread.  EVERYONE is forbidden by Israeli law from publically attempting to sway anyone's religious convictions.  The super Orthodox Chasidim cannot try to get the less orthodox Jews to "convert" to their brand of Judaism, the Reform Jews can't preach to the Orthodox to change their ways, Jews can't preach to Christians or Moslems and vice versa.

This IS religious freedom! Israel believes that everyone is FREE TO MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICE ABOUT WHAT THEY BELIEVE, and how they pray, without being pressured by outsiders, whether governmental OR PRIVATE!!  That's why the Bahai movement moved their international headquarters there many years ago, and that's why the Arab Druse units of the Israel Defence Forces are some of the toughest units in the IDF.

I'm sorry if those of you who think that you can't get to Heaven unles you're a born again Christian are offended by Israel's policy of not allowing public advertising of your religion.  We Jews don't think so at all.  In fact, we don't even think we've got an exclusive pass to Heaven.  Jews believe that anyone, even an athiest, who lives a good life, can make it. We see no need for anyone to try and convert anyone.  Maybe it's because we remember what happened to us in Spain 500 years ago.