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Posted: 5/4/2002 10:42:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 10:44:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 10:47:14 PM EDT
Hey that is an un-patriotic remark.[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 10:47:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 11:32:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: "It doesn't apply to citizens, so we are safe."
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HAHA! I remember so many people here saying those exact words right the PA was proposed after 9-11 and being chastized for not agreeing. Maybe everyone will now understand why I am so cynical about everything in the republicrat party and how sheeple come in both donkey and elephant costumes.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 11:48:14 PM EDT
Give us some highlights of this law. I am not surprised that the jump to fight terrorism will trample all over our own liberty. It is inevitable.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 5:03:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2002 5:03:48 AM EDT by Silence]
Here is what the ACLU says about it: [url]www.aclu.org/congress/l110101a.html[/url] [i]Among the USA Patriot Act's most troubling provisions, the ACLU said, are measures that: Allow for indefinite detention of non-citizens who are not terrorists on minor visa violations if they cannot be deported because they are stateless, their country of origin refuses to accept them or because they would face torture in their country of origin. Minimize judicial supervision of federal telephone and Internet surveillance by law enforcement authorities. Expand the ability of the government to conduct secret searches. Give the Attorney General and the Secretary of State the power to designate domestic groups as terrorist organizations and deport any non-citizen who belongs to them. Grant the FBI broad access to sensitive business records about individuals without having to show evidence of a crime. Lead to large-scale investigations of American citizens for "intelligence" purposes. [/i] The expanded secret searches, the domestic groups as terrorists, and the new 'investigations' of citizens for intelligence purposes are the ones that will probably concern the members here. After all The Guvment may decide that 'AR15.com' is a terrorist network and then put us all under secret surveillance, then detain or deport all the non citizens, and search every one of our homes, err arsenals, for 'massive quantities of weapons, ammunition, explosives and materials for chemical weapons'. I can see the press release now: "We are here to announce a nationwide conspiracy by a group that communicated through the internet and arranged clandestine meetings for weapon practice. In a stunning series of raids we have arrested more than one thousand people recovered more than ten thousand weapons, hundreds of thousands of bullets, tons of explosives, and even the makings for WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Rest assured we will not rest until we hunt down and exterminate the rest of this terrorist network, please if you have any information contact your local FBI, ATF, Reicherrrr Homeland Security Office. Zeig errr Thank you."
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 5:12:27 AM EDT
I read it.... our firm is going to do a special letter to clients when the new FinCin crime regs come out. In addtion to all the spying and computer stuff you guys know about, every transaction or 'series of related transactions' totaling more than 10k must be reported to uncle sam with a bunch of information. Bought a new bedroom set? US will get your info. Car? Info. Back deck? Info.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 5:35:02 AM EDT
Three things I can add to the Patriot Act: (watch out, I'm really going to sound Conspiracy-theoriest here for a minute) * HIPAA is the Health Care privacy act that protects your medical records (i.e. 4 STD's while at Stanford, admitted to doctor in 2001 to drinking 3 or more alcoholic drinks on occasion, and once talked to psychiatrist about sometimes wanting to hit his wife). Every person or entity that accesses your records will have to have a consent form and have their access recorded. Good thing, right? Unfortunately, the gov't not only excluded themselves from this privacy act, they included provisions to allow their access at will (no warrant) and with no record. Imagine where that can lead? * All cell phones must be traceable (with military GPS) by 2005. They say it's for "emergency reasons." * While Federal ID appears to be on the back burner, Federal-standardized State Driver's Licenses are on the horizon. The Fed's give $ to the States for roads, so they can tell them how to do things like Driver's Licenses. Biometrics are a given. There is still talk of a "smart card" requirement. Keep in mind your Driver's License proably has a statement on the back like mine: "This ID must be carried with you at all times....." Troy - you're not the only one livid about the loss of Freedom we have experienced in just the last year. I wouldn't have believed it possible to happen so quickly. What can you do, though? Me, I just keep going to work so I can pay my Federal taxes and hope they leave me alone for a little while longer :). Black Fox
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 5:57:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BlackFox: * While Federal ID appears to be on the back burner, Federal-standardized State Driver's Licenses are on the horizon. The Fed's give $ to the States for roads, so they can tell them how to do things like Driver's Licenses. Biometrics are a given. There is still talk of a "smart card" requirement. Keep in mind your Driver's License proably has a statement on the back like mine: "This ID must be carried with you at all times....."
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Yeah, try to post a thread addressing this one. You'll get the usual establishment responses, "Its not as bad as a national ID," and "You paranoid conspiracy theorist," and all the other gems. Sometimes the people of this site can be of the most pro-establishment type.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 6:05:49 AM EDT
Do you suppose they just legalized what the government is already doing anyway?
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 6:11:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By marvl: Do you suppose they just legalized what the government is already doing anyway?
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Most likely so. But the federal gov't is also registering all guns bought through dealers by compiling 4473s...illegally. Do we want to make that, which they are already doing, legal too? No; at least I don't.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 6:15:41 AM EDT
I was bitching about this up and down after it was proposed, but everyone called me a tinfoil hat and suggested that I was not patriotic. Their excuse? They believed the PA had a sunset provision. Well only one section has a sunset provision. The electronic surveillance portion. Everything else? It stays intact until someone challenges it in the Supreme Court.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 7:35:42 AM EDT
Stubbs, you're probably right. JPFO should have a cartoon of the Jews being tatooed and herded into trains: "Hey, it's just a tatoo. It's not like they don't know we're Jewish anyway. It's not like they're tracking us so they can gather us all up some day!" "Hey, so we're getting into trains to go to summer camp. At least they're not herding us all together to kill us! The nice SS man who came to our house said they were just taking us on a trip and we'd get to come back in just a few weeks!" [b]The one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history.[/b]
Do you suppose they just legalized what the government is already doing anyway?
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marvl - yes, and no. At least one ISP had refused to install eavesdropping devices into their systems - this changed that. I work as an information security specialist, and have had to work with FBI & local LEO's. I used to have the option to say "I'll need a warrant." Now they have access to anything they want at will (and I legally can't tell you they accessed your data now). [b]Flash forward 5 years....[/b] The NRA has been drilling into us that anyone without mental or substance abuse problems who has received appropriate training should be able to own firearms. The gov't, in cooperation with Oracle databases, thousands of health care officials, State Motor Vehicle offices, State-licensed teachers and others, has created the largest, most complete database on every citizen in the US ever created. Citizens who have registered their firearms according to the 2005 FRA (Firearms Registration Act, passed shortly after a narrow Democratic victory in 2004) complain they are receiving unusual attention. Citizens who demonstrate psychological disorders such as stress-related disorders ("burn out"), substance abuse problems (2 or more daily drinks of alcohol, etc.), domestic abuse (including spankings or verbal abuse) or others will be in direct violation of firearm ownership criteria, making them guilty of at least one felony. Thanks to this huge national cooperative, we now have access to records of discussions with doctors, company-sponored counselors, school teachers, and even web discussion boards. Think it can't happen? I didn't think they would boldly pass laws allowing them to spy-on and track us like animals. Why do they need this ability?
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 8:17:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2002 8:18:18 AM EDT by PoliticalScience]
Originally Posted By BenDover: Well only one section has a sunset provision. The electronic surveillance portion. Everything else? It stays intact until someone challenges it in the Supreme Court.
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Right. And if anyone thinks Rehnquist will take a pro-freedom stance, they're tragically mistaken. [img]http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/justices/images/rehnquist_s.jpg[/img] [i]"William Rehnquist: Supporting the construction of the police state since 1972."[/i] [(:|)]
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 8:18:10 AM EDT
Bear in mind also that the "Patriot Act" flew through both houses of Congress with almost no debate and almost unanimous support. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they [i]aren't[/i] out to get you.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 8:29:25 AM EDT
And the only congressman to even dare question the Patriot Act was a Democrat. Senator Patrick Leahy (D) earned my respect while the Republicans and most other Democrats were stumbling over each other trying to hurry up and look patriotic and pass the Act. You know something's wrong when a [u]Democrat[/u] is the one that dares question bigger, more intrusive government. source: [url]http://www.thehill.com/050102/patriot.shtm[/url] [(:|)]
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 8:30:55 AM EDT
Pretty damn scary. AND will do nothing to prevent terrorism IMO. But we can all feel safer, right? baaaaaa. Maintain vigilance everyone. Never register anything. Personally, I think you guys in Kali are really screwed. Get out while you can is my advice. Some of you may want to think hard about posting pics or lists of your collections. I like looking at the pics, also, but...
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 8:39:47 AM EDT
So far the Republicans in Washington are not widely abusing citizens with this new power. Personally, I wish Government would ruthlessly kick foreigners out of our country who are here without the proper paperwork. But even that is not happening. If and when the Clinton-democRAT-criminals return to power you can kiss your weapons and freedoms goodbye. The DemoCriminals will not enforce immigration laws, but have proven a gross disregard for the rights of US citizens. PoliticalScience: Senator Patrick Leahy is also known as leaky Leahy for revealing national secrets. He is personally stopping any potential judges who believe in the Constitution. Leahy is anti gun scum.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 9:51:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Goad: PoliticalScience: Senator Patrick Leahy is also known as leaky Leahy for revealing national secrets. He is personally stopping any potential judges who believe in the Constitution. Leahy is anti gun scum.
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I was aware of that. And while I'm sure there is no congressman that anyone of us can agree with 100% of the time, my point was in the irony that a Democrat was the one to speak out and question the potential loss of freedoms posed by the Patriot Act. Frankly, I will respect and give credit to anyone who acts in the interest of freedom be they Republican, Democrat, or otherwise. [(:|)]
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 10:04:54 AM EDT
... Other than bursting blood vessels in our foreheads and developing ulcers just WTF can an individual do? ... Not much. ... I'd surmise we've already lost. We're just warm frogs about to boil.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 10:11:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PoliticalScience:
Originally Posted By Goad: PoliticalScience: Senator Patrick Leahy is also known as leaky Leahy for revealing national secrets. He is personally stopping any potential judges who believe in the Constitution. Leahy is anti gun scum.
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I was aware of that. And while I'm sure there is no congressman that anyone of us can agree with 100% of the time, my point was in the irony that a Democrat was the one to speak out and question the potential loss of freedoms posed by the Patriot Act. Frankly, I will respect and give credit to anyone who acts in the interest of freedom be they Republican, Democrat, or otherwise. [(:|)]
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I watched the floor debate on CSPAN. Leahy was also the only one to bring up the point that this bill could place law-abiding gun owners under suspicion due to the fast and loose definition of "domestic terrorist".
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 10:18:57 AM EDT
Yep, don't you love this "war" on terror? Did we get Osama yet? Nope. So now, Saddam Hussein is next. I wonder if we'll get him. [thinking] themao [chainsawkill]
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 10:53:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Happyshooter: I read it.... our firm is going to do a special letter to clients when the new FinCin crime regs come out. In addtion to all the spying and computer stuff you guys know about, every transaction or 'series of related transactions' totaling more than 10k must be reported to uncle sam with a bunch of information. Bought a new bedroom set? US will get your info. Car? Info. Back deck? Info.
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It was almost 10 years ago that researchers were bringing up major red flags about FINCEN- Financial Crimes Enforcement Network. But alas, the ad hominem accusations of "paranoid" and "conspiracy theorist" flowed from the ignorant handwaivers who thought government would never do that to it's citizens. Now there is another generation of head in the sand political party sheeple to tow the line with new don't-bother-me-survivor-is-on phrases like "black helicopters" and "you must be a muslim supporter". No matter how much times have changed, the more they have stayed the same. The Republic is lost.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 11:48:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Happyshooter: our firm is going to do a special letter to clients when the new FinCin crime regs come out. In addtion to all the spying and computer stuff
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What is your firm and what are the "FinCin crime regs"?
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 11:48:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2002 11:49:55 AM EDT by grimshaw]
Read a book."Unintended Consequences" Learn the secret handshake, so that we know if we can count on you.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 11:51:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: snip The Republic is lost.
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Yes. No question. No schools I attended ever called our country a Republic. A Democratic-Republic in the sixties-seventies became a Democracy in the seventies-eighties. The real Political Pros call USA an oligarchy, a government by the elite. It is defined as a system whereby power accrues to those individuals who can bring certain resources to bear. Elections are the process that decides who spends the government money. The Republic probably received a mortal wound circa 1905 when the Supreme Court decided that there was a commerce clause that was the "mother of all clauses"; a true "Santa Claus" for the Elite who rejected the limits imposed by the constitution. That there is some traces of the original Republic is a testament to the original Republic's integrity and worth. They just don't build governments like Jefferson and Mason and friends did in the 1790's. But Leahy standing up and speaking for legal gun owners? Hah! He was talking about Democrat Elites, not you and I. Remember this: Talk is cheap and talk from a politician is doodly-squat. Leahy stops good judges and that is what counts.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 1:06:01 PM EDT
I'm with Imbroglio 100%. I was and am outraged by the PA, and along with Bush's executive order to seal Presidential papers away from the National Archives and his moving his gubernatorial records into his father's presidential library away from Texas' archives. This administration is committing an egregious amount of unconstitutional acts under the guise of national security and privacy concerns. They're behaving like Enron's officers in feeling that they don't need to answer to the people. As dishonorable as Clinton was, ask yourselves what's worse. Getting blown in the Oval Office or subverting and outright violating the rights of citizens? It's pathetic and Bush-leagued to release information about Clinton's record while hiding your own under the guise of "respecting executive privacy". Those of you who fell into and marched along the Republican line need to open your eyes and realize they are marching on you. Forgive me for the gross analogy, but the Holocaust began with policies that are necessary for the State's "security". "Restoring honor to the White House". Bullshit. The corporation-bought, CIA-crusted acorn don't fall far from the tree, y'all. Personally, I'm starting to yearn for the neo-Camelot days of c**ksucking in the WH. I've said it before and caught some shit for it, but this President is not suited for the job. I give him credit for his response to 9/11, but really, what President wouldn't have waged war? The transparency of government is what people died for in creating this country. I personally owe my freedom to veterans who died to get me to get country. This administration has violated the Constitution and shit upon the sacrifices of those men and women who died to preserve the very freedoms Bush and his kind have shredded. A LOT of members here practice NIMBY. Sure, go ahead and pass laws against those who are not like me and don't share my values. Hell, it don't affect this American. Well, enjoy your harvest. Ah, what the hell. Summer's comin' and you shouldn't worry. Ol' GW will do the right thing in the end. My only consolation is the firm belief that we'll be rid of him in three years.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 1:26:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Buddha: I'm with Imbroglio 100% snip
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Laughung Out Loud Rolling On The Floor Imbroglio is an anarchist that calls for armed insurrection BY OTHERS. "Not in my back yard?" As opposed to "in my back yard?" Those are my choices and you suggest I should choose "in my back yard?" This liberal sh*t cracks me up.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 6:26:49 PM EDT
What is your firm and what are the "FinCin crime regs"?
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Law firm. fincin is the Financial Crimes Information Network. They are about to get 10 times as much data as they get now (now they get mostly bank transaction reports) Any Person (person, corp, etc) that get money through their business and the money from one Person totals more than 10k from any transaction or series of related transactions will have to give a bunch of info on the other guy to fincin. This will change the way of lot of big ticket retailers and contractors operate their records and billing and sales. The government will specify by regulation the information required. The fincin claimed the regs will be out soon last time I called and asked.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 9:16:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Goad:
Originally Posted By Buddha: I'm with Imbroglio 100% snip
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Laughung Out Loud Rolling On The Floor Imbroglio is an anarchist that calls for armed insurrection BY OTHERS. "Not in my back yard?" As opposed to "in my back yard?" Those are my choices and you suggest I should choose "in my back yard?" This liberal sh*t cracks me up.
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LOL...You got me. I should have clarified I agree with Imbroglio ON THIS ONE. But, you missed my point. Many members here parrot the party line and don't question policies that don't seem to affect them. When an administration regards the other two branches as secondary to its executive entitlement, it is flat out wrong. When they are done with other people's backyard, yours is next. What are the chances of feds knocking on your door in the next few years? Slim if any. They won't take your guns now, but they can begin by keeping tabs of what you own, and where you keep them. Look at what has happened to us in CA. The laws here didn't happen overnight. They chipped at it little by little, and people thought, "Well, I wouldn't buy those guns anyway". I envy you guys who can buy all the neat toys, but if you don't keep an eye on the people in office then AZ, TX, FL, etc...will go the same way. CA ain't your backyard, but feds are looking for new land all the time. I'm not a paranoid anarchist, and I've voted both sides of the fence depending on my best knowledge of the folks running. Don't let Bush run amok because you're so glad Clinton is gone. Troy is right in wondering why there hasn't been more outrage. Why haven't you Republicans been more critical of your man on these issues? What I'm saying isn't liberal shit. It's uncontitutional shit, and we're all being forced to eat it...little by little. No flame intended. You enjoy your summer.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 11:01:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Goad: Laughung Out Loud Rolling On The Floor Imbroglio is an anarchist that calls for armed insurrection BY OTHERS.
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an·ar·chism- The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive and undesirable and should be abolished. If I where an anarchist, I would not want the Constitution or Bill of Rights. Please cite where I have called for the abolishment of these 2 documents or the Republic. "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants" --Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy p. 20, S. Padover ed., 1939
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 1:55:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 4:45:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2002 4:49:07 AM EDT by Goad]
Originally Posted By Imbroglio:
Originally Posted By Goad: Laughung Out Loud Rolling On The Floor Imbroglio is an anarchist that calls for armed insurrection BY OTHERS.
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an·ar·chism- The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive and undesirable and should be abolished. If I where an anarchist, I would not want the Constitution or Bill of Rights. Please cite where I have called for the abolishment of these 2 documents or the Republic. snip
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It took 200 posts and two years to get a direct response from you Imbroglio. Few of us fit neatly into pre packed descriptions and for sure you only are partly an anarchist. My apologies, Sir. I believe that the election of President Bush was a sea change in domestic politics and further I believe that it is critical that we give support to these good people in power. This is what I believe about words and laws: Words alone do not stop or force governments. The PA is scary if government wants to f*ck up the government's enemies, real or presumed. But the lack of the PA would not stop government. Consider this: Article IV Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of government This gives the President the authority to conduct war against any who threaten the Republic from within. Socialists in Congress, Leftists tenured in our Universities, Talking Heads who insist that we have a democracy that should be socialistic...
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 4:59:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Goad: I believe that the election of President Bush was a sea change in domestic politics and further I believe that it is critical that we give support to these good people in power.
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It was a sea change that was [b]not[/b] for the better. "Good people in power?" Are you on crack? This "good person in power" took a [red][b][size=3]GIGANTIC FUCKING SHIT[/red][/b][/size=3] on the protections against tyranny set forth by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
This is what I believe about words and laws: Words alone do not stop or force governments. The PA is scary if government wants to f*ck up the government's enemies, real or presumed. But the lack of the PA would not stop government.
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But the PA legalizes the dirty shit that the government routinely pays Hell for doing. Also, the government [b]is[/b] using the PA to "fuck up" its enemies. Wake the fuck up.
Consider this: Article IV Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of government This gives the President the authority to conduct war against any who threaten the Republic from within. Socialists in Congress, Leftists tenured in our Universities, Talking Heads who insist that we have a democracy that should be socialistic...
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No it doesn't. Frankly, I be shitting myself in fear and preparing for war if the government decided to act against "leftists" and "socialists." They have as much right to believe and say whatever they want as YOU do. The last time the government used Article IV Section 4 to justify its actions we were fighting the most costly war in our history. The government used that article to rape, murder, and rob people it deemed to be "enemies." I say again, wake the fuck up.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 5:45:44 AM EDT
I remember the "RICO" laws were designed and passed just to be used in the fight against organized crime. Yeah, right.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 1:07:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: I remember the "RICO" laws were designed and passed just to be used in the fight against organized crime. Yeah, right.
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teddy kennedy has been documented as saying he wanted use the RICO statute against the NRA and all of it's members. Most people in BOTH parties have and always will be just concerned with things in the short term. RICO started out "as a good idea" to fight organized crime. Now it is being used for asset forfeitures against people who haven't even been charged with a crime. The "War on Drugs" started out "as a good idea" to stop the trafficking of controlled substances, now it has evolved into a "war on the Constitution" not to mention a "war on guns". Now we have the PA that started out "as a good idea" to stop terrorists, but is already turning into an anti-Patriot Act. Maybe like good old dubya has said over and over again that this is a democracy. Where mob rule overrides the Constitution and Bill of Rights, just so we all can feel safe.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 1:16:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 1:45:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: No kidding - I screamed and pissed and moaned about this kind of stuff, but nobody was interested. It particularly irks me because I am permanent resident, and this kind of stuff directly affects me. My understanding is that the Consitution protects all legal residents of this country - citizen or not. Apparently Ashcroft has DECIDED differently. I was so outraged about all this stuff that I joined the ACLU - because they seemed to be the ONLY PEOPLE at the time who thought this was a problem.
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I didn't like the "bloodlust legislation" neither but of course was met with accusations of supporting terrorism. Really sobers you up when the law all of a sudden points the finger right at you doesn't it?
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 5:02:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: My understanding is that the Consitution protects all legal residents of this country - citizen or not. Apparently Ashcroft has DECIDED differently.
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Actually, the Constitution (specifically the BOR) was originally meant to protect the rights of [b]all[/b] people [b]everywhere[/b]. It's moot not that it even protects citizens.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 10:05:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 1:06:28 AM EDT
Almost enough to make someone start mailing out Anthrax or to put pipe bombs in mailboxes. God damn terrorists and other traitors to the crown!!
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