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Posted: 5/4/2002 2:26:49 PM EDT
Maybe I missed something but I thought that this caliber was going to be available to us. Did something happen (ATF) that is keeping it out of civilian hands? Does anybody know why it is not available? Thanks, Rickyj
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 2:34:02 PM EDT
I believe there's a law integrated within the handgun AP ammo ban prohibiting cartridges with a bullet to casing weight ratio lower than some amount (I have no idea).
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 2:49:25 PM EDT
You and me both. I bought (and ruined!) a Contender barrel for it because the Symera, GA crowd said it was definitely in the works. They said it was being tested on the 17/22, and the 20 frame. That was at least three years ago....[:(]
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 3:03:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2002 3:06:44 PM EDT by TopCrest]
Screw all that 224BOZ, 5.7x28, etc, etc. i got something in the works right now that should launch a 40gr 223 at about 2600FPS out of a 5-7" bbl. The dies are theoretically on the way. Edited to add... Since this is all constructed using exisitng components, hopefull the BATF wont kick in my door and tell me to stop R&D. If I could get a bigger ammo mfgr to make this stuff in large batches, I think it would be about $0.20-$0.25/round.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 4:45:58 PM EDT
That must be it Mr-T, because .224 BOZ is available it is just restricted, as in not for us. TopCrest - .224 BOZ is stated at 2800 FPS with a 55 grain FMJ, 645 foot pounds, that's enough for my purposes. [:)] And as an added bonus it can penetrate ~25 layers of kevlar, ~7mm of armor steel. COOL!
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 4:56:19 PM EDT
This is what I found for the AP ban:
Under Title 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44 as amended by Public Law 103-322 The Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (enacted September 13, 1994) 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 § 921(a)(17)(B) the term 'armor piercing ammunition' means i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
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(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. And a lot after this, but no more definition. I don't see anything about it in there, was there a later law Mr-T?
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 8:27:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2002 8:30:22 PM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 8:39:13 PM EDT
so.......??? Is it legal us civilians or not ????????
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 8:41:55 PM EDT
Of course it's not for you, peasant.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 9:20:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rickyj: This is what I found for the AP ban:
Under Title 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44 as amended by Public Law 103-322 The Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (enacted September 13, 1994) 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 § 921(a)(17)(B) the term 'armor piercing ammunition' means i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
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(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. And a lot after this, but no more definition. I don't see anything about it in there, was there a later law Mr-T?
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No, I think I just need to learn how to read! Somehow my brain originally saw "jacket" as "casing" in section ii, because that made more sense to me at the time. My thinking was (and is) that they would try to restrict small bullets in powerful handgun cartridges, because that would have better penetrating properties. But now it makes almost no sense to me. Certainly, if the jacket of a .40 cal 180 grain FMJ passes the test, a .223 should have no problem... unless there's something else I'm missing. Sorry for the misunderstanding. [stick]
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 9:54:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 10:01:30 PM EDT
So we must be missing some law somewhere. It's not in the 94 bill, anybody know of another AP bill? I would think that if it was legal that it would be on store shelves. There's not a law just against a handgun round penetrating a vest is there? Seems to me like a .454 would go through a vest, and if not one of those pistols chambered in .308 would.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 10:06:16 PM EDT
Who cares ? This sounds like a product in search of an application. For the vast majority of people choosing a carry/duty weapon, the convenience of a handgun outweighs its marginal effectiveness. Chances are you'll want close-in stopping power on unarmored individuals, and this means big, heavy, fast hollow points. If you expect to encounter armor, take a rifle/carbine to the party. These armor penetrating handgun projectiles are very specialized (say as a backup piece for entry teams known to be facing armor). The barrel length alone makes them inconvenient, and I'd have doubts about their stopping power. Until the use of armor becomes hugely more prevalent amongs the bad guys, this product is a loser, IMHO. By the way, what's to stop you making your own ? Get some suitable loading dies made (Dillon et al), a custom barrel reamer (Clymer) some virgin 10mm brass and a bunch of .223 heads. Or do something similar with a revolver round, and save yourself the headach of trying to make the gun cycle such a weak round.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 10:07:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 11:02:29 PM EDT
There is something out there. A gunsmith told me he necked a 38 Super case to take a .224" bullet. He's working on a 9x23 case now.... but I can't seem to get him to reply to a post in another forum. I'll have to email again and see if he has barrels.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 12:04:57 AM EDT
I don't see why some machinist can't make some .224 BOZ barrels since the cartridge dimensions were published in a gun rag last year. Working up loads shouldn't be that difficult either.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 12:11:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: You don't really think you're going to get a BRITISH company to do anything for civilian gun owners, do you? -Troy
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Are the British still upset about what civilian gun owners did to them?
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 8:30:10 AM EDT
I have been wanting to build one for some time now.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 10:14:18 AM EDT
I remember coming across a single shot NEF rifle chambered for a .357 maximum case necked down to .224, and somebody makes conversion kits for M1 carbines with the case necked down. Called a .22 Spitfire or something similar. I figure you could get a Blackhawk chambered for it if you just gotta have a pistol, but what would it be used for? Seems like an awful lot of expense and effort just to poke holes in paper.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 11:54:54 AM EDT
This is the first time I'm seeing these calibers and I gotta say I'm intrigued! Looks interesting, I'd especially be interested in the accuracy out of an AR15. As far as 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 § 921(a)(17)(B), I don't think any ban of this cartridge would come from this statute. In fact, are you certain it is in fact banned or is the AP bullet essential to the cartidge, which makes the cartidge illegal?
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 12:13:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Johninaustin: but what would it be used for? Seems like an awful lot of expense and effort just to poke holes in paper.
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Remember when mom said you couldn't have any.. {blank}? Same thing.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 12:53:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: The caliber is NOT illegal (though true AP, ala M995 projectiles, would be). It is simply the POLICY of the company not to sell to civilians. Just like FN restricts sales of the 5.7 round to LEOs and goverment only. You don't really think you're going to get a BRITISH company to do anything for civilian gun owners, do you? -Troy
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So an american company could produce something close to this and market it? Aren't there people who have created their own cartridges and weapons on this board? If the guy who made the .458 socom makes a .224 Boz pistol I'll buy one.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 12:55:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Johninaustin: Seems like an awful lot of expense and effort just to poke holes in paper.
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But you're not just poking holes in paper you're poking them in steel and kevlar. [:)]
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 1:18:14 PM EDT
Stick:
What's his name, you know - that mag guy: You don't really think you're going to get a BRITISH company to do anything for civilian gun owners, do you? -Troy
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Are the British still upset about what civilian gun owners did to them?
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That's funny Stick! [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 1:32:01 PM EDT
StealthyBlagga: Who cares ? ... For the vast majority of people choosing a carry/duty weapon, the convenience of a handgun outweighs its marginal effectiveness.
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You just had to go ahead and screw up the thread with reason, and common sense didn't you? [;D] (Intelligent post!)
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 12:25:01 AM EDT
Buy some 10mm cases, get some case-forming and reloading dies made, and go have fun. That's how wildcatters have done it for decades.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 12:44:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kpel308: Whoop-de-whoop. Heck, guys, we've already got .224 projectiles and 10mm or even .45ACP cases out the yin-yang. R+D? 400 CORBON is good, so a .357 CORBON with a 9mm projectile out of a 45 case should be better, eh? I have to admit, it's a cute little bugger, but I think I'll just stick with saboted projectiles, for the nonce. (think 22 out of a 45)
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Some one already did that took a 9mm and put it on a .45 acp case. Called it the .38 Casual or somethinf like that. There was a right up in Guns ans Ammo a Few months ago.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 1:25:42 AM EDT
someone said a solution looking for a problem? this caliber would of worked well in the north hollywood bank shoot out a few years back in SoCal. the 9mm pistols the cops had didnt do much against the kevlar, if all the cars had one of these guns in the trunks things would of ended before SWAT even arrived. putting this caliber in a pistol that the cops are already carrying means increasing there firepower and abilities to stop hostile criminals and not having to increase special training as you would with a carbine .
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