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Posted: 5/3/2002 5:20:32 AM EDT
Some of my literature states it's OK for open cary, some says it's not OK. I asked my Sheriff about it in person and he also said it was ok but would likely cause "disruptions". On the applications it specifically says "conceiled carry" in the "Check type of permit desired" line. Anyone know FOR SURE??? Bryan
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 5:25:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2002 5:28:18 AM EDT by rogerb]
They are CC, (you are talking about a regular permit , not valid for Weschester, NYC, etc ? correct ?) they are on the short side when it comes to giving you info when they issue it, at least in dutchess county. I always thought it was funny that i had to sit through an 8 hour class to get my certificate to bow hunt, but had to do nothing to get my CC permit.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 5:50:21 AM EDT
NYC is definitely concealed carry! Otherwise you'd be swamped by a blue tidal wave of JBT's(my colleagues).
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 5:56:52 AM EDT
I am in Catt county in WNY. BrenLover
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 5:57:16 AM EDT
I agree with waverunner...See what happens in good old NYC. You have a snowball chance in hell to even get a CC for NYC. In NYS and Nassau County no one cares if they don't see it.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 7:45:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SorryOciffer: I am in Catt county in WNY. BrenLover
View Quote
Mine is chaut.co.......personal protection......I do not believe there is such a thing as open carry for non leo`s......there IS a controversy as to carry/hunting only....etc. etc.....depending on county......BUT open is a no-no in N.Y. as a whole........why would you do it anyway?......[:)]
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 7:50:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2002 7:59:24 AM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 10:49:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2002 10:50:49 AM EDT by JH225]
I have never seen any text on open carry. It is a concealed carry permit in NYS. Roger, "They are CC, (you are talking about a regular permit , not valid for Weschester, NYC, etc ? correct ?)" Can you please explain what you are talking about as far as any county(ie:westchester)other than NYC being not allowed? The permit actually states NOT NYC, nothing else. It is a statewide permit as far as I know.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 11:08:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 11:26:55 AM EDT
I thought Westchester county was excluded like NYC , but I most likely had it confused with the hunting regulations for Westchester (which are different), sorry. But, I was in my local sheriffs office this week to put a curio and relic application on file, and there was a sign that stated if you were transferring a permit from Westchester to Dutchess it was only as good as long as the expiration date on the Westchester one. So they are different in as far as the have an expiration date. Some LEO maybe can clear this up.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 2:29:45 PM EDT
Try these: http://www.att-tactical.com/gunlaws.html http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-nys-ccw.html (New York State Pistol Licensing... Concealed Carry v. Open Carry) http://www.ocshooters.com/changes.htm (changes and additions in NYS gun laws) http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws.asp?FormMode=Detail&R=NY&T=print And last but not least... http://www.incnf.org/GunIssue.htm
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 2:51:31 PM EDT
Just a little more info. Westchester is one of those counties that feels they can violate citizens rights. They have what is called "Target & Hunting" and Full carry. 1.You can pretty much forget about getting a full carry unless you are very politically connected. 2.According to state law, there is no such thing as a "target & hunting" permit. There are 3 types of "real" permits. Full carrry, Premises (your own) and one for business owners (business/premise).Been awhile since I read the law, so the names might be different, but you get the idea. Until someone or some organization challenges this county policy in court, it will never change. The sign Roger saw in the S.O.'s office, refered to the fact that Westchester permits now have an expiration date and have to be renewed. Dutchess does not, they are lifetime or until revoked. I do not know of any county (or even if they can) that does not honor a NY STATE issued permit, except NYC which is in the law books as being a seperate entity. PS- Roger, contact me, I believe we know each other.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 3:50:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 3:53:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 3:54:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 3:55:09 PM EDT
Many jurisdictions in NYS issue restricted permits. Even though there isn't a state law, which specifically refers to restricted permits the courts have upheld the validity of the restrictions. You cannot be prosecuted for violating a restriction. Violation of a restriction is an administrative process only. Restrictions are placed on PP at the discretion of the licensing officer (usually a judge). A pistol permit that is issued anywhere in NYS is valid in Westchester. You are required to carry concealed except when hunting or target shooting. Open carry in any other situation would be construed as menacing under NYS law.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 4:02:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2002 4:05:51 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 4:03:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 4:04:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 4:04:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 4:52:13 PM EDT
Notice how in that whole petition, that the courts never addressed the "target & hunting" issue?
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 5:18:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 7:56:11 PM EDT
Mine says "license to carry pistol" I keep it concealed when I do carry, better safe than sorry no restrictions on it either, gotta love fairly rural, conservative counties like Chautauqua
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 2:21:41 AM EDT
wow, lots of good information came out of this thread. lots of bookmarking and cutting and pasteing for me. It a shame that in N.Y you get a great deal on information each time you renew a hunting license but you get just about nothing when you get a pistol permit.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 12:31:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Waverunner: NYC is definitely concealed carry! Otherwise you'd be swamped by a blue tidal wave of JBT's(my colleagues).
View Quote
you mean they issue permits in the cesspool???
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 12:37:22 PM EDT
Geees! NY.... Thats in communist China right? Do you guys not a have a second ammendment there? I thought CA was the only place like that. I dont know how they get away with that. Right to Bear Arms? I wonder if they missed that part?
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 1:24:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 7:20:32 PM EDT
As a downstate New York resident somehow involved in the legal profession, I offer the following UNQUALIFIED commentary regarding this thread. First of all, especially you LEO's every gun owner in New York State should purchase and read and study the following legal book: NYS GUN LAWS by:LT. Lee O. Thomas (NYS Police, Ret.) and Jeffrey Chamberlain, Esq. available only from Looseleaf Law Publications, 43-08 162nd Street, Flushing, NY 11358. Ph. 718-359-5559. (I am in no way involved with this company or the authors, except that their manual, which is updated yearly, is kepy by me and I find it the best resource on the subjects of, guns, handguns, fireworks, explosives, etc. available in New York State.) New York State, which is not an NFA state, which prohibts the use of deadly force in almost every possible circumstance but for a few EXTREMELY LIMITED circumstances, which prohibits, most knives, etc., had, for its time, a pistol licensing system which was frankly, ahead of its time. Tammany Hall politicians put the current handgun licensing system in almost 75 years ago. The law is antiquated, the forms are antiquated, and has so many exceptions and loopholes it frankly is a joke everywhere in the state by for New York City, where the restrictions put in by the City are mostly illegal. FYI. There are only two types of permits expressly authorized by statute. Premises, and/or Carry. A Premises permit is one in which a specific address is listed on the fact of the license at which the possession of a handgun is legal, or in the alternative, the possessor of the license is expempt from prosectution for possession of the handgun which is illegal unless you have a license, period. Frankly, a premises license is a joke. Case law indicates that the premises license does not allow you to walk around your backyard with the pistol on your belt. The premises license does not allow you to take it to a range, nor does it even allow you to take the pistil home from the gunstore. It is simply by the largesse of the issuing police agency that you can do those things. Usually, the premises permit use to mean that you could write a letter to the agnecy asking to target shoot, and if they didnt write back it was OK to go shoot at the range. I kid you not, this still occurs. To be continued . .
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 7:32:22 PM EDT
Premises permits generally do not form the bulk of what actually gets issued in New York State. The other type of license is of course, the Carry License. While the actual statutes do not grant any authority to alter the 'carry' portion of the license, case law as affirmed by New York State's top Courts indicate that it is within the discretion of the licensing officer of the county in which the pistil carry license is sought to restrict the conditions of the carry license. This Court opinion has resulted in a patchwork of conflicting and sometimes completely insane, county by county carry license restrictions. New York City is of course, an exception to what I write below, NYC gets its own section. The most common and frankly logical, of the restrictions is what I have, namely carry license restricted to target shooting (when going to and from the range), and hunting (where legal in New York State). My wife, althoug she does not hunt, has the same endorsement on the license. This is Westchester, Nassau County and Western Soffolk County. How does this operate in the real world? What most people do in Nassau, is join a private gun club, get keys to the range, and then carry, as they are always going to the range. Most downstate ranges make it available 24 hours a day to exploit this loophole. The Target and Hunting license operates as a defacto carry license, although this violates the spirit of the endorsement on the license and of course you are technically violating the regualtions of the county on the issuance of the license. Of course, this does not let you carry "in the local mall on the way to the gun range" as you may only make stops necessary, i.e. gas, food, etc. on the way to the range. I have never heard of anyone even getting caught doing this. I do not know how non-New York city law enforcement would react to this. It is of course, better never to find out anyway. BTW, open carry is technically not illegal as per New York State Law. However, most counties require, as part of the regulations promulgated by the issuing authority that you carry concealed and that even you 'avoid unnecessary display' of the pistol. Needless to say, CONCEAL THE GUN. To be continued . . .
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 7:46:13 PM EDT
You must of course, realize the unique status bestowed upon you by holding a license granted pursuant to the New York State Pistol License. As another poster stated herein, the license EXEMPTS YOU FROM PROSECUTION FOR POSSESSORY OFFENSES. Namely you cannot be convisted for any of New York State's 500 different hangun possession felonies. How does this work in real life? 1. You have a carry permit restriced to target shooting, You get caught with a pistol at a birthday party and the "i am going to the range later does not work' You get charged with illegal possession. NO CRIMINAL CHARGE, because you are a 'person exempt' from prosecution for possession. You violated your license subjecting you to the only penalties being: Forfeiture of the license. 2. You have a premises restricted license and you throw the pistol in the glovebox and get caught with it during a traffic stop. (Under most case law, you must research this yourself) NO CHARGE. You are an exempt person, you violated the restriction on your license, you are subject only to administrative penalty of loss of license. (Needless to say I would not want to try this firsthand, many cops are paranoid of guns, and/or ignorant of the antiquated laws in New York State. As there is no crime in suburbs of New York State just put your stuff in the trunk please!) Of course the license does not exept you from any charge realting to the use of deadly force which is **SEVERELY** resticted in New York. What I have cited above is the framework of the system, but another problem crops up in that the issuing agencies promulgate more and more ruled regarding handguns. Nassau now wants you to sign off that you will lock the guns in an immobile or secure safe. There is no such regulation permitting this. The cop didnt like it at all when I told them they have no authority from the legislature regarding how I store my guns (I gave the cops a lot of shit for this.) Also, training for the licensee is also not supported by law but continually seems to be upheld by the Courts. BTW, did you know that piltol license holder information is public record. Periodically the New York Times published a list of people licensed within its paper! To be continued
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 8:00:26 PM EDT
Finally, good old New York City, which acts in disregard of every right principle. New York State has granted NYC an exemption from many provisions of the State's regulation of handgun licensing. Permits valid outside of the City of New York are not valid within the City of New York. From my cursory evaluation of the case law, I can not find cases where non NYC resident were successfully prosecuted within the City of New York for bringing guns into the City. there is an exemoption for those people in transit through the City, provided that your rod is locked in the trunk with ammo seperate blah blah blah. However, just about anyone who drives through the People's republic of NYC violates one regulation or another because everything is illegal, even the possession of loose live ammunition cartridges. However there is no exemption for the following real life example: 1. You live in Connecticut. You want to fly from LaGuardia to Bozeman Montana for a handgun bison hunt. You pack your Thompson Center Contender and drive into the Bronx on your way to Queens. You get pulled over. The 'Man' finds the rod. You get cuffed. "But officer, I am on my way to Montana, I am going on a hunt" You are charged and convisted for Felony possession of a pistol by a non-exempt person. You think I am kidding, there is no provision in New York State Law for any non-licensee possessing a pistol but for some miniscule exemption for out of state residents at NRA matches, guns shows, and olympic competitors. It is a lovely feature of New York Law that you can not use its aiprots when you are an out of state resident bringing handguns without risking a Class D Felony. Needless to say, do not risk this, fly from Newark New Jersey because even New Jersey has a 'Guns in Transit' exemption. New York City anyway, has about 5 or 6 gun licenses which are all illegal but for plain old premises and unrestriced carry. they have a target permit where you can go to range unlimited amount of times but when home you must lock the guns up, they have a 'protected premises permit' where you can only bring it to range twice a month but can leave the sucker locked and loaded at home. Total bullshit, but, to fight such a procedure you have to file a suit in the County Supreme Court under whats known as an Article 78. To be continued . . .
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 8:11:42 PM EDT
FYI, any action dealing with the issuance, restriction, revocation of a New York State pistil license is consdiered to be "Administrative action" for purposes of judicial review. In other words, those appointed to serve on the NYC firearms inquiry review board (a panel of persons that investigate every shooting and evem the DISPLAY OF A PISTOL TO A POTENTIAL ASSAILANT) are considered by the actual Court system to be experts and are PRESUMED to be correct im their determiation of any matter. Only when the decision of the Administrative body is 'whimsical or capricious" (not rationally groudned) will the actualy State Court overturn an agency's finding. Or in regards to licenseing, the Article 78 petition, which has very strict filing requirements in terms of time after final agency decision. (Typically you have to appeal the agency determination within the Administrative framework before you have a rigth to see a real Judge) regards to licenseing you have to file an Article 78 petition saying that the agency has overstepped its legistlative authority' which is expensive and time consuming and necessitates lawyers. (Belive it or not, a lot of county and city regulations have been knocked out this way) How does this work in real life? Well in NYC, display that guns once you get to lose that license! Another Bull shit NYC restriction, if you get the license, you must put a gun on it. i.e. husband and wife get licenses. Wife just wants to shoot husbands gun every so often. In New York City, can not do it, wife must but gun and put it on license. HORSESHIT. The big picture? In New York State as a whole, GET THE LICENSE. In New York City, get the license. You are immune from presecution (although not evry one of these situaltions has been litigatied BEWARE) for possession, even if the gun you own is NOT ON THE LICENSE. Either way, get that book. I hope I have been of some help and I think you get the idea that THERE IS NO OPEN CARRY IN NEW YORK STATE!
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