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Posted: 5/2/2002 11:44:27 AM EDT
As I see more and more examples of extreme interference in citizen's private lives, I wonder if the best way to regain our rights and limit the effects of the Federal government is to limit the size of the Federal government. This seems like a good idea, but I don't know how we, as citizens, can effectively limit the size of this huge bureacracy. Do you guys have any ideas that may work? Do you even believe that we need to reduce the size of the Federal government? Would most of the other programs and/or problems 'administered' now by the Federal government be adequately handled by State and local governments? Is it a correct statement that we can control our destiny and can limit the size of our government? Will a reduction in the Federal government equate a reduction in the current 'meddlesome' legislation that we are burdened with? What are some of the other issues about slimming down the government that I have missed?
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 11:50:33 AM EDT
Yeah, how about the "1 shot, 1 kill" theory? [:)]
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 11:50:50 AM EDT
Civil War would do it. Put some common people back in office. THW professional politicians and there I feel your pain crap![NI]
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 11:53:23 AM EDT
Never vote for the incumbent. One term and out.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:09:01 PM EDT
We can't downsize government. We can set the government on those that set the government on us. This is the hope of the Second Amendment movement. The popular press is admitting guns and gun ownership is POPULAR. It is IN. We need to turn this movement against those who tried and are trying to steal from Americans their legacy of being born in USA. Congress says we need 4000 new INS agents to actually enforce INS law. I say we need 8000 and 4000 need to be transferred from the BATF, where they are redundant and unnecessary. EPA needs to address the fact that cities are hazardous and they must be broken up into small towns with parks and legal gun ownership. This would be a start.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:11:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Voodoo17: Never vote for the incumbent. One term and out.
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Didn't Thomas Jefferson espouse something like a 1 term limit for EVERY office? From city dog catcher to POTUS, one term and back home to answer to your neighbors. Thisneeds to happen but term limits will not neccessarily limit the size of the US government. To use a cross dressing fairie as an example, how many administrations did J. Edgar Hoover run the FBI? All of those years and through several different presidents, Democrat and Republican, he effectively grew the FBI to the monolith it is today, with little or no oversight from ELECTED officials. The main impetus for a government agency to grow past the original indended size is for a bigger slice of the budget pie and a commensurate increase in the power and prestige of those 'public servants' in the upper echelons of command. Term limits are a good start but how do we actually reduce the size of this behemoth? If we don't corral this sucker, it will comsume all of our rights.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:15:36 PM EDT
They way I see it the people are the problem. [soapbox] Most people really do expect the Government to 'do something' for them. Sombody dies in car crash - hey the Government needs to tighten auto safety standards. People smoke cigs, get cancer and die, their family wants to sue the tobacco company. Social security started out to help the poorest of the poor. Now people expect it, plan for it when they retire. A tornado hits somewhere, people expect Federal disaster funds. Business build stuff on 100 year flood plains, 10 years later there's a 150 year flood - everybody expects Federal funds. It goes on and on...there I feel much better now [:D]
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:42:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wiggy762: Is it a correct statement that we can control our destiny and can limit the size of our government?
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No. The federal government got way to big to control. It now and will continue to control us.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:51:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
Originally Posted By wiggy762: Is it a correct statement that we can control our destiny and can limit the size of our government?
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No. The federal government got way to big to control. It now and will continue to control us.
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Does your statement mean that we should shut up and submit to a government that may or may not have our best interests at heart, or are you suggesting that the government cannot be fixed in its current configuration and that citizens can expect change only from a forceable change?
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:51:36 PM EDT
"We the people" Says it all, vote, vote, vote. We talk about bans and restrictions and yet we see them all around us. We talk about the 2nd, and then trample on the first. Again vote, vote, vote. let this truly be a goverment and a site of the people. Keep all of the Bill of Rights in tact!
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:04:04 PM EDT
Sorry, but, short of a MAJOR catastrophe, Government will continue to grow and gain power. In case you havn't figured it out yet.....that's the only way it can survive. Look at how large the population is getting. It takes a lot of government to control so many "free" people.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:04:15 PM EDT
How can we downsize the Federal government?
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Uzi 9mm or M-16, your choise.z (Note, this is just a joke, but I don't see any other way to successfully downsize people that seem to work full-time to protect their own jobs.)
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:05:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARgon: "We the people" Says it all, vote, vote, vote. We talk about bans and restrictions and yet we see them all around us. We talk about the 2nd, and then trample on the first. Again vote, vote, vote. let this truly be a goverment and a site of the people. Keep all of the Bill of Rights in tact!
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I agree completely with you, but there seems to be a couple of problems with that scenario. The first porblem is the fact that there is ample room for dishonesty in our current national voting procedures. The 'dead voting' in Chicago in the 1960 presidential election is an example. And if a person could eliminate the opportunity for corruption in the voting system (using the internet for example), the candidate with the most money to spend on capaign ads is usually going to prevail, esentially buying the election. The second problem that I see with a pure voting response is that there is, in fact, a group of political appointees that are and have been involved in US domestic and foreign policy decisions for several administrations. IIRC, Marlon Fitzwater was a senior Presidential aide for Nixon, Ford, Carter, and Reagan. I know of another senior aid that was in the White House for Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, and now Bush Jr. but I cannot remember his name. These examples are just in the executive branch, what other more insidious examples could there be in the Legislative and Judicial branches? Simply, voting will not work on it's own. But what else should be done? Were we close with the almost Presidential election of Ross Perot? Reduction of the US government was on of his planks, as was term limits and running the government like a business.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:11:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 2:33:39 PM EDT by cc48510]
Lets See. This should do it (Note that this is a bill I made up and is not an actual bill):
H.R. XXXX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AN ACT To decrease the size of the Federal Government and restore the Constitution and the rights of American Citizens, Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE AND TABLE OF CONTENTS. [list](a) SHORT TITLE -- This Act may be cited as the "Restoration of the Constitution Act".[/list] [list](b) TABLE OF CONTENTS -- The table of contents for this Act is as follows: [list]Sec. 1. Short title and table of contents.[/list][/list] [Table of Contents omitted Because it makes this posting over 3500 characters.]
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TITLE I -- Restoring Constitutional Rights. [list]SEC. 101. Restoring The Second Amendment. [list](a) The following unconstitutional firearms laws are hereby repealed -- [list](1) Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code; (2) Chapter 76 of Title 15 of the United States Code; and (3) All rules and regulations promogulated thereunder.[/list][/list] [list](b) The following Chapter is added is added to the end of Title 15 of the United States Code: "Chapter 98 -- Pre-emption of State and Local Infringments of the United States Constitution"[/list] [list](c) The following section is added to the end of Chapter 98 of Title 15 of the United States Code: "Sec. 7201. Firearms Laws -- All current and future law, ordnances, zoning ordnances, statutes, or other regualtions relating to firearms, existing in any state or subdivision thereof are hereby held null and void.[/list][/list] [list]SEC. 102. Unconstitutional tax laws. [list](b) The following unconstitutional tax laws are hereby repealed -- [list](1) Title 26 of the United States Code; and (2) All rules and regulations promogulated thereunder.[/list][/list][/list] [list]SEC. 103. Unconstitutional drug laws. [list](c) The following unconstitutional drug laws are hereby repealed -- [list](1) Chapter 13 of Title 21 of the United States Code; (2) Chapter 16 of Title 21 of the United States Code; (3) Chapter 18 of Title 21 of the United States Code; (4) Chapter 20 of Title 21 of the United States Code; (5) Chapter 22 of Title 21 of the United States Code; (6) Chapter 23 of Title 21 of the United States Code; (7) Chapter 24 of Title 21 of the United States Code; and (8) All rules and regulations promogulated thereunder.[/list][/list][/list] [list]SEC. 104. Unconstitutional alcohol laws. [list](d) The following unconstitutional alcohol laws are hereby repealed -- [list](1) Title 27 of the United States Code; and (2) All rules and regulations promogulated thereunder.[/list][/list][/list] TITLE II -- Reducing the Size of the Federal Government. [list]SEC. 201. Reducing the Size of the Federal Government. [list](a) The following Unconstitutional Agencies are hereby disbanded -- [list](1) The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobbaco, and Firearms; (2) The Internal Revenue Service; and (3) The Drug Enforcement Agency. [/list][/list][/list]
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Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:13:49 PM EDT
Wiggy, maybe we should clean the house of all (to include those named) and then vote in new, something has got to get better. Our system is not perfect, however I prefer it over the rest. I like the idea of a Republic, a democracy (which we are not) could get really sticky!
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:29:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 2:02:12 PM EDT by Blaze-Of-Glory]
Absolutely the federal government should be downsized. It uses its unchecked power to take money forcibly from Americans. I can think of only [b]2[/b] services that should be provided by the feds: 1) National Defense. 2) Very small judicial system to deal with cases of interstate violent crimes. What else are they good for? The feds continue to gain power because the citizens at large allow them to. If citizens learned how much $ they are forced to give the feds, and how little desirable service is provided by the feds, more citizens would realize that federal power is more trouble than it's worth. We can all vote to decrease federal power; but also [b]we need to help are pro-government friends realize that the benefits of federal power are a mirage[/b]. We need allies if we are to win the fight against federal imposition. I'll start, by asking: What good do the feds do us?
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:35:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 1:36:39 PM EDT by ChuckT]
When President Reagan was in office, reducing the size of government was one of his primary objectives. I believe he was sincere, but he failed. If the chief administrator can't do it, who can? Personally, I have no idea, but it needs to be done. And soon.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:44:47 PM EDT
If we could by some miracle alter our Tax system. I'd be happy with either a Flat Tax or a Fair Tax. Abolishing the IRS would go along way, but this would take an act of God.-or some queer cosmic interference. Privatize Socialist Security Legalize more Firearms and reduce the size/need of the ATF Perhaps altering the way the dollar is valued as well. Screw Fiat (inflation) dollars. Go back to the gold standard. Breed-out stupid people who are dependant on govt. masters to tell them how to live.-also would take an act of God [:D][:D] libby
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 7:57:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wiggy762:
Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
Originally Posted By wiggy762: Is it a correct statement that we can control our destiny and can limit the size of our government?
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No. The federal government got way to big to control. It now and will continue to control us.
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Does your statement mean that we should shut up and submit to a government that may or may not have our best interests at heart, or are you suggesting that the government cannot be fixed in its current configuration and that citizens can expect change only from a forceable change?
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The latter.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 11:37:52 PM EDT
Taking away their money is a good start. How about 10% federal taxes for a starter?
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 12:59:35 AM EDT
The only way to do it is to scale back on what is the responsibility of the Feral government. What bugs me is that noone of consequence is even asking what the duties of the Feds should be limited to, especially the great Republican hope, George Bush. Do we really need Federal oversight of the educational system? Howabout merging the DOE into the DOD where it belongs - civilian pretenses ignored? Why does HUD exist and what is the scope of its mission? etc, etc, etc....
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 3:16:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2002 3:17:05 AM EDT by AZCOP]
[img]http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/arm/arm31.jpg[/img] On the surface, I can see where it might be a bit extreme, but one or two of these might do the job. Jay [img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 4:33:26 AM EDT
Ever read the fiction book "Term Limits" by Vince Flynn? That works for me. BrenLover
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 7:55:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2002 7:57:42 AM EDT by trickshot]
Many people I talk to compare government to a one-way ratchet--it is almost impossible for it to shrink because it takes on a life of its own and has defense mechanisms just like any organism. In good times or bad, the pols do whatever it takes to increase their power over us. But, whenever I hear about the state legislature crying about budget cuts and having to lay off people and cancel programs, I start feeling warm and more free. The local news idiots always decry such moves though--their unscientific "polls" always show the public worried about loss of essential services. It's as if we've forgotten that not every problem requires a government solution. But the tv news folks, especially, have never met a government program or politician they didn't like except maybe Jesse Helms. The best way to kill government is to starve it to death. I'm not sure the more extreme measures are actually better until much later in the game.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 8:17:53 AM EDT
If we could get a large number of "regular citizens" to run and then support them. Naaaaa. I think we are very close to the cartridge box, but I am not sure we are organized nor motivated enough to use it.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 10:45:19 AM EDT
I happen to agree that we just may be out of options. The very size and scope of the Federal Government will make any legal changes very difficult to accomplish within the framework that the government has established. I do see a spark of hope in the constant taxing of the citizens. As the disappearing middle class is forced to bear more and more of the nation's tax burden, the seeds of a new revolution may be sown. I do not advocate armed conflict in this situation...yet, and I do fervently hope that our elected officials will wake up and begin to do the right thing and remember they are there as our representatives.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 1:29:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Uhlek: Yeah, how about the "1 shot, 1 kill" theory? [:)]
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Works for me!
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 1:34:26 PM EDT
You guys think too small. Did anybody read Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honor"?? That might help.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 6:57:29 AM EDT
One of the easiest was to downsize government is to vote Libertarian. All candidates running on the Libertarian Party ticket, take a pledge to not expand government. We want to limit the Federal Government to the mandates in the Constitution. Most of the programs ran by the federal government should be ran by the states, just look at the 10th amendment.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 9:07:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trekmaster: One of the easiest was to downsize government is to vote Libertarian. All candidates running on the Libertarian Party ticket, take a pledge to not expand government. We want to limit the Federal Government to the mandates in the Constitution. Most of the programs ran by the federal government should be ran by the states, just look at the 10th amendment.
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We don't need a pledge of non-expansion, but a pledge of contraction!
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 9:34:43 PM EDT
Largest number of voters in America--- government workers. This in itself makes it very hard to get anyone with a brain in office. Politicians have been buying votes for years. Don't just complain about the government think of ideas. We need real ideas even if they are not up to par, they can spark real good ideas later. People think in terms of getting them out or getting control by going around them i.e. http://www.levellers.org/jrp/ Know your rights, tell others of our rights! [sniper]
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 9:47:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2002 9:49:40 PM EDT by themao]
You can't downsize it. The present democratic system makes it impossible for such a thing to occur. Everyone is too dependent upon the state. Our only hope is for peaceful succession. I say peaceful, because any violent action will result in a much MORE violent reaction from the state. Also, since no one has made home grown laser cannons yet, withstanding the US Army or Marines would be next to near impossible for any length of time. Hell, there's plenty of ROTC people I know at Wash U waiting for the moment when they get to throw my right wing ass in the gas chamber. It's either that folks, or we could take over Argentina [:D] themao [chainsawkill]
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