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Posted: 5/1/2002 12:24:03 PM EDT
I was watching CNN at lunch and they were discussing the "panty check" in California. I heard several people refer to "zero tolerance" like it was a good thing. Has programming (i.e. blindly following rules with the application of thought such as Hitler used) with no exceptions replaced the ability to use the brain God gave us? Why do they have such a difficult time with context? For example, a second grader kissing another student is punished for sexual harassment. I agree that sexual harassment by teachers/students is wrong. But second graders? Wake up and smell the burnt toast! If [b]they[/b] can't put things in context, how can they teach our kids to put things in context? Sorry. I guess they found a hot button of mine.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 12:30:17 PM EDT
I agree! It's almost as though I have zero tolerance for zero tolerance!
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 12:34:29 PM EDT
Zero tolerance is a joke. Yesterday they busted a kid in the Atlanta area for having yard tools in the back of his pickup. One of the tools was a machete. He had worked late the evening before and had forgotten about the tools in the back of the truck.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 12:35:21 PM EDT
Zero tolerance is used so that mindless politicians/administrators/leaders can wash their hands of the tough decisions and pass judgement without carrying the burden of judgement on their shoulders. In all cases, the punishment should fit the crime (not necessarily the consequences of said crime), taking into account all factors, intent, etc... Zero tolerance makes me want to [puke]
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 12:37:09 PM EDT
Technically, I believe that in the late 80's Broward County had so called Zero Tolerance for Toy Guns in Schools. You were supposed to be suspended or expelled. But, up until about 1992, we had water gun fights right before vacations right in the middle of the school. None of the school administartors gave a rat's ass if a bunch of students were packing Super Soakers. But, technically according to the rules all of us should have been suspended or expelled. At least the administrators at one school had the brains to ignore Zero Tolerance. On the other hand, I brought a Toy Cap Gun to school in 1988 (Different School). It got confiscated and I never got it back, which sucks now that I realize that it was a Pre-ban (They had to add blaze orange markings after 1988 because some dumb pre-teen aimed a toy gun at a cop and got his brains blown out.)
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 12:53:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FALARAK: Zero tolerance is used so that mindless politicians/administrators/leaders can wash their hands of the tough decisions and pass judgement without carrying the burden of judgement on their shoulders.
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Exactly! Why do we have courts with judges? Why do schools have administrators? What supposedly separates human beings from even the most advanced computers is that we don't just follow a set of rules; we look at situations and can determine intent, consequences, etc. We can reason that, if that kid had a machete to hack apart a few classmates, that's bad. But if he had the machete because he forgot it was in his truck, who the hell cares? By having zero tolerance rules, we reduce ourselves to mindless automatons -- "Yes, the punishment may seem pretty severe. But, hey, those are the rules. What can we do about it?" We're not computers whose actions are dictated by lines of code; we're sentient beings who can use our intelligence and our morality to determine between right and wrong. But I guess those concepts are entirely too advanced for the run of the mill rule maker. Common sense has gone out the window and we just follow a bunch of mindless "If...then..." statements. The really frightening thing is that the rules are written by people. But for some reason, people don't (or won't) realize that you can change the rules. Hell, there's even a process to amend (and repeal portions of) our Constitution. But a school policy of zero tolerance, hell, that's engraved in stone. I think a lot of people are lazy -- in that they want to avoid application of thought and responsibility. They let somebody else think about it. They let somebody else make up the rules. And then they just follow along. In return for a "comfortable" existence, they would trade what makes them innately human.
Originally Posted By ChuckT: Sorry. I guess they found a hot button of mine.
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It's not just a hot button of yours.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 3:42:06 PM EDT
I don't know, I have zero tolerance for Clinton.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 3:45:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:15:35 PM EDT
This is an example of what I was talking about: [url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/05/02/doodle.death.threat.ap/index.html[/url]
The stick figures, on a crudely drawn gallows with arrows in their heads, had the names of Becca's teacher and a substitute teacher written underneath. Another teacher spotted the doodle in the girl's binder Tuesday and reported it, prompting the three-day suspension. Becca's parents, Philip and Barbara Johnson, denied the school's contention the drawings were "terrorist threats." "She had done poorly on a test that was handed back to her. We've always told her that you can't take your feelings out on your teacher, so write about it or draw it, as a catharsis," Barbara Johnson said. She accused the school of applying a zero-tolerance policy that "does away with due process and inflicts a penalty without a hearing or investigation." The district said its zero-tolerance policy applies only to gun or drug possession, and denied that no investigation was done.
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Gee, I never drew a picture of a teacher with an arrow through his/her head when I was in school. Did you? BTW, I have to add that ronin47 articulated this "Zero Tolerance" nonsense exceptionally well!
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:30:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 1:36:41 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By FALARAK: Zero tolerance is used so that mindless politicians/administrators/leaders can wash their hands of the tough decisions and pass judgement without carrying the burden of judgement on their shoulders. In all cases, the punishment should fit the crime (not necessarily the consequences of said crime), taking into account all factors, intent, etc... Zero tolerance makes me want to [puke]
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Nice try, but Zero Tolerance usually happens because an administrator, principal, or other "authority figure", takes different action with 2 similar situations. Then they get sued, ridiculed, fired, accused of racism, etc. etc. (when you explore the situation you usually find out that 1 kid was a serious troublemaker and it was the others first problem, or the intent of the "accused" were very different". Another example of the giving "the People" what they want even though they didn't know what outcome their desire would have. EDIT: ChuckT, I think respect is earned, but disrespect can be punished. There is no reason why a teacher should have to put up with sillyness. like that. What "Due Process" did you guys have in school?? When a teacher said detention, or the principal said detention, or suspension that was it you were detented, or suspended. Expulsion required a hearing with the school board, but usually by then they had a signifigant history of mis-deeds written out. School is for learning, students should be held to standards, including academic, behavior, and attendence.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 1:54:56 PM EDT
ChuckT, I think respect is earned, but disrespect can be punished. There is no reason why a teacher should have to put up with sillyness. like that. What "Due Process" did you guys have in school?? When a teacher said detention, or the principal said detention, or suspension that was it you were detented, or suspended. Expulsion required a hearing with the school board, but usually by then they had a signifigant history of mis-deeds written out. School is for learning, students should be held to standards, including academic, behavior, and attendence.
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Yes, disrespect can be "punished," but suspension? She drew something on a paper that she kept in her folder. She did not leave it on the teacher's desk or hand it in. How does that constitue a threat? Misdirected anger needs to be counselled, not compounded. Kids are emotional little humans. Give them a break. BTW, are you a teacher?
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 2:01:24 PM EDT
Well, most zero tolerance policies are instituted as a backlash either against what is perceived as a trend toward lax punishment or against a problem that is seen to be increasing rather than decreasing under whatever the plan was before zero tolerance. People see judges giving what they think are lax sentences for crimes they think are an abomination, and they start a petition that ends up on a legislator's desk. The legislator says, "Something needs to be done!" The next think you know, your kid is being expelled for pointing his finger at another kid with his thumb sticking up and saying, "Pow!" There are a few things I have zero tolerance for though: Child molesters Rapists Wife beaters Terrorists You get the idea. The lowest of the low. I think they should be crucified on telephone poles with a sign around their neck identifying their crime, and left there until the crows pick them clean...as an example to others.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 3:36:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ChuckT: Yes, disrespect can be "punished," but suspension? She drew something on a paper that she kept in her folder. She did not leave it on the teacher's desk or hand it in. How does that constitue a threat? Misdirected anger needs to be counselled, not compounded. Kids are emotional little humans. Give them a break. BTW, are you a teacher?
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No not a teacher, but I did get in trouble for scribbling comments a few times..........Misdirected anger shouldn't be tolerated. I wasn't saying that it should be a capital offense, but then again it should't be ignore either. Also when I posted, I was talking about why there are "zero tolerance" type rules, not that I agree with having them.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 3:41:18 PM EDT
Zero tolerance, is only good when sensably applied, un fortunately, the conditions of its use are sometimes miss-guided.should a child playing cops and robbers or cowboys and indians be thrown out of school for violating a zero tolerance policy against school violence, girls being expelled for having a nail file in her purse, a young man for having gardening tools in the back of his pick-up. no this is silly. if they are so for the zero tolerance gig, lets direct it towards something worth while like pedifile priests, drunk drivers and drug peddelers. these people are simply labeled "Victims of their society or their up bringing" Better not let them get caught with an offencive T-shirt on school property, they might get in trouble. [:)>]
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 3:48:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By huntclubsec: Zero tolerance, is only good when sensably applied,... [:)>]
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"Zero tolerance" and "sensible" are, by definition, an oxymoron. If it was sensible, you could apply context. Zero tolerance excludes context.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 4:40:16 PM EDT
I remember that when Jimmy Rice's killer got caught the teacher in a writing class told us to write what we thought they should do to him. If you want to know offensive/violent language you oughta see what I wrote along with the corresponding illustration that I drew. I handed those in. Nobody ever claimed they were threats, violent, or whatever... In 5th grade we had a play about what not to do...Some students made wooden guns and played Druggies, Gangbangers, etc...Then, other student played successfull people who avoided drugs and gangs. I don't believe from my experience that this PC Bullshit really began taking hold until about 1994. I know because I got suspended in 1994 for "having a weapon". A bully hit me from behind. At the time I liked to draw. So, when he hit me I dropped my pencil. I took after him. But, he got away. So, when I got back to where I had been sitting, I picked up my pencil and put it in my pocket. At that time, the bully hit me again from behind. I spun around with my hand still in my pocket. But, at that time the Vice Principal walked in. I got suspended for "having a weapon" because I could have used the pencil against him even though I had no idea he was behind me and even more importatantly even though I never even struck the bully. The rule was that by virtue of the fact that I had the pencil in my hand albeit that my hand was in my pocket that the rule was they had to suspend me as that constituted "possession of a dangerous weapon."
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