C'mon people!  Open your eyes - we have the answer right in front of us.  Let me paraphrase a bit...

We didn't land on the moon - true.
The Pentagon is in Nevada - true.

Now...follow closely here...

Area 51 is where...Nevada!  Just a coincidence?

What's in area 51 besides the pentagon?  ALIENS!

Soooo...Aliens shot down TWA800!!!!!

AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! Run Away!  Run Away!

The first question that I would ask if I were inclined to even think that terrorist actions may have brought this aircraft down, would be:

Where are the claims for the downing of the plane?  Where are the jubilant videos that show the ecstatic looks on their faces, as they cheer the blow against the Great Satan?

Sometimes your enemy is clever, sometimes they are just....not.

Eric The(AndWhereIsTheRepeatForSuchASuccessfulAction?)Hun[>]:)]

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Oh that was annoying, wasn't it? [:K]

Where did you get those specs? These came from Jane's [url]http://janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jlad/jlad001013_2_n.shtml[/url]

Specifications
Missile Type: 2 stage, low altitude
Length: (missile) 1.52 m
Diameter: (missile) 0.070 m
Wing span: 0.091 m
Weight: (missile (at launch)) 10.1 kg
(launcher (plus missile)) 13.3 kg
(launcher (complete)) 15.7 kg
(battery coolant unit) 0.4 kg
(beltpack IFF system (including connecting lead)) 2.6 kg
(grip-stock) 2 kg
Propulsion: solid fuel ejector and dual-thrust boost/sustainer rocket motors
Guidance: FIM-92A passive IR homing; FIM-92B/C passive IR/UV homing
Warhead: 1 kg HE blast smooth-case fragmentation with time-delay contact fuze
Max speed: M2.2
Max range: 8,000 m
Max effective range:
(FIM-92A) greater than 4,000 m
(FIM-92B/C) 4,800 m
Min effective range: 200 m
Max altitude:
(FIM-92A) 3,500 m
(FIM-92B/C) 3,800 m
Min altitude: effectively ground level
Launcher: man-portable single-round disposable with reusable grip-stock

FYI:
3,500m = 11482 feet
3.800m = 12467 feet

Sound more plausible now?

I believe one or two of the Russian SAMs surprised western intelligence by having a real high ceiling, like 20,000 feet.  But they had to do it by sticking a really small warhead on it.  I don't think a SAM would be able to take out a full size Boeing in an instant.  If I am not mistaken, don't missles explode when it reaches a certain distance from the aircraft, showering it with fragments?
The other trouble I have is either we accidentally shot the plane down, and I can't imagine having all the crew members on the ship or plane who launched the missle, the NTSB investagtors, FBI, etc etc not saying anything to anybody, or a terriost shot it down and I can't see why the govt would keep that a secert.  

Uh, no, actually, it's most certainly NOT plausible.

"3,500m = 11482 feet
3.800m = 12467 feet"

Your version has the plane climbing through 13,500 BEFORE the impact, the lowest height given on the accompanying chart is 13,700 up through 15,200.  That's TWO THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED FEET to ONE THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED ABOVE even the figure YOU posted for max altitude, assuming a snap shot at the beginning of the radar track.

A quarter mile above max ADVERTISED height would be a heck of a trick.

Anybody here rated on the Stinger?

The skin of TWA800 was pelted with fragments that came from outside the aircraft and penetrated IN.  This is a fact.  Also, the reason they would cover it up is to keep all of us from freaking out.  Somebody mentioned nobody took responsibility for it- that is true, but then nobody took responsibility for Sept 11 either.  And people only cheered in the streets because it made the news worldwide.

Sir, we definitely DID land on the moon, because that is where the Pentagon is, not Nevada. [:)]

First of all, it was Flight 93, not 94.

Second of all, yes, I sincerely think it was shot down by US interceptors.  How else can you explain wreckage, including luggage falling 7 miles from the crash site?  Anyone?

As far as the tapes played for the families, who knows if they're even real?  It's been nearly seven months since the day it happened.  The government has had exclusive access to the flight recording data.  The American people have been kept in the dark this whole time and are still in the dark about a great many things.  The feds could fake them six ways from Sunday.  They had plenty of time to do it and plenty of practice from other coverups like whatever really happened to Flight 800.

I think the story of heroic passengers is modern myth-making propaganda at its best and it was done to cover up a really ugly truth--that our government ended the lives of its own citizens in a moment of crisis when they didn't know what else to do.  The passengers very well may have fought the terrorists on board, but a missile brought down that plane and someday we'll probably find that out, not that anyone will care.  It will end up just like the Kenneday assassination--millions of people thinking that there was a lone gunman, meanwhile, the real truth has been pieced together and there is very good evidence of a conspiracy, including the names of the assassins.

The state is an evil, self-sustaining organism.  It lives off of us.  That's the bottom line.  We can't have armed pilots, but the US Air Force is authorized to shoot down hijacked flights.  

I don't get it.  Are you actually proud that the National Guard killed four people at Kent State?  I'm surprised that this isn't some huge conspiracy story by now, too.  I guess the difference is that some independent people got that one on film and there was no denying what went down--the government killed innocent people that day.  Very few people remember what happened at a black university right after the Kent State shooting.  

"Two men can keep a secret, if one of them is dead." -- Mark Twain

Stinger, sidewinder, yeah that's like me saying I killed a charging bull elephant with a tack hammer, with one smack.

Think about it, really. Whatever brought that plane doen did it almost instantly. Very unlikely with an IR guided weapon, it would go after 1 of 4 engines, that are designed to drop off in cas of catastophic failure.

Are you saying that a radar guided missile hit the bod of the jet and destroyed it. I kinda think that would require a LARGE missile something that would be VERY VISIBLE to radar. Not to mention the radar signature it would need for trageting.

If it was an "accident" as the gullible claim, how exactly do you explain that missile that is the size of a telephone pole coming up missing?? YOU DONT, YOU CANT, wouldn't happen.

If it was a terrorist, they would be lining up to claim responsibilty. Who has claimed responsibility?  Where was the launch platform? It would require a ship or several trucks to launch a large missile. Where are they??

Remember the Challenger? Destroyed by a rubber O-ring? Think about it? No-one wants to admit that a 100 ton plane can be brought done in seconds due to an unforseen simple mechanical failure. That is scary because there is no defense for that. Terrorists can be killed, design flaws fixed, etc. etc. But mechanical failures happen...............

And if it was a US fighter pilot, how do you explain the ability of the Govt. to keep a secret between all the pilots, ground, techs, air traffic controllers, command staff, radio scanners, and inventory people that have kept silent about the order and execution of a "shootdown order"?

It is a passenger plane designed to be flown at relatively low speeds in level flight. Stuff was torn off. And you need to check your math AGAIN. We already had this crap posted by you I believe with a site linked by YOU claiming that "7 miles"........... it was 10,000 feet, which according to the rest of the world is less than 2 miles.

STOP POSTING LIES.

First of all, where did you get your numbers, the highest known altitude was 13,750 feet (anything above that is according to the "spontaneous climb" theory of the NTSB).  So, 1300 feet higher than a Stinger might be able to reach.  So maybe it went higher.  I'm sure there isn't an altimiter hooked to the missile that says "Aha! 12,467 feet in altitude! Self destruct!".  I do know a bit about flight, and ceiling is determined by a variety of environmental factors.  Also, operating at it's max range might explain other unsuccessful missile sightings in the past in the same area.

Edited to add: Also, it might not have been a stinger.  It could have been any man-portable missile.

Kentstate4, your assertion that this plane was shot down rather than brought down by passengers doing what they could at the cost of their very lives is such a huge insult I cannot begin to discuss it calmly.

These people are so much more deserving of life than the 4 whacked out at Kent State it is not even reasonable to compare the two situation. Kent State was MOSTLY a bunch of retarded misguided assholes fucking up the country by means of terrorism.

Flight 93 was people who gave their lives to PREVENT terrorism. I can only hope that one day you are beaten within a inch of your life so that you will fully comprehend the sacrifice they made. Asshole.

For anyone interested in the ACTUAL truth...

[url]http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/beamer.htm[/url]

Claim:   Internet account describes Todd Beamer's final moments on Flight 93.
Status:   True.

Example:   [Collected on the Internet, 2002]


"I don't think we're going to get out of this thing. I'm going to have to go out on faith."
It was the voice of Todd Beamer, the passenger -- and Wheaton College graduate -- who said "Let's roll" as he led the charge against the terrorists who had hijacked United Flight 93, the one, you will remember, that crashed in the Pennsylvania countryside.

The whole world knows how brave Beamer and his fellow passengers were on September 11. But this week we learned more fully what buttressed the bravery: Faith in Jesus Christ. Todd died as he lived, a faithful evangelical believer.

In an article titled "The Real Story of Flight 93," Newsweek reveals gripping new details from the actual transcripts of the now-recovered cockpit voice recorder. "Todd had been afraid," Newsweek relates. "More than once, he cried out for his Savior."

After passengers were herded to the back of the jet, Beamer called the GTE Customer Center in Oakbrook, Illinois. He told supervisor Lisa Jefferson about the hijacking. The passengers were planning to jump the terrorists, he said. And then he asked her to pray with him.

As Newsweek relates, "Beamer kept a Lord's Prayer bookmark in his Tom Clancy novel, but he didn't need any prompting. He began to recite the ancient litany, and Jefferson joined him: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."

As they finished, Beamer added, "Jesus, help me." And then, Beamer and his fellow passengers prayed a prayer that has comforted millions down through the centuries -- the prayer that David wrote in a time of great anguish: The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want . . . Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil.

And then the famous last words: "Are you guys ready? Let's roll."

We now know from the cockpit voice recorder that Beamer and other passengers wrestled with the hijackers and forced the plane to crash into the ground, killing themselves but foiling what was believed to have been the hijackers' plan to fly Flight 93 into the Capitol or the White House.

As Christians, we know that God can bring good out of evil. In Todd Beamer, the world witnesses a faith that held up in the extremity of fear. A faith that is even now comforting his widow and two young sons.

Lisa Beamer told NBC's Dateline, "You know, in the Lord's Prayer, it asks us to forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." As Todd prayed this prayer in the last moments of his life, in a way, Lisa said, "He was forgiving those people for what they were doing, the most horrible thing you could ever do to someone."

It wasn't Todd Beamer's job to fight terrorists. He was just a passenger who along with several others did what he didn't have to do but foiled a terrible evil that might have been done to his country.

As Flight 93 hurtled towards destruction, Todd Beamer could not have known that his quiet prayers would ultimately be heard by millions -- that the story of his last acts on earth would be a witness to the Lord he loved and served and a lasting example of true heroism.

Amen, Brother Steyr, preach it Son!

Yes, it is assinine to believe that some US fighter shot down a commercial airliner in such a short period of time. From intercept to request for authority, to finding someone in the Pentagon who would authorize the certain death of 100 or more US citizens? Nope, it didn't happen like that!

It happened just the way it was described in the Newsweek article.

I also think we know the intended target of the hijackers aboard Flight 93 - the CIA HQ in Langley, Virginia.

How so? Well, in those pre-recorded videos that were just released of some of the Sept 11 terrorists, one mentioned that they were striking the commercial, the military, and the intelligence centers of the Great Satan.

What 'intelligence center' would be more likely than the CIA headquarters?

Eric The(ThoseVideosWereMadeMoreThanSixMonthsPriorToSept11)Hun[>]:)]

Well preach this [url]www.flight93crash.com/index.html[/url]

"believe half of what you hear,none of what you see and all what you read" kennth starr 1998.[}:D]

another [url]www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/1001/1001flight93.htm[/url]

In all fairness after do a google search,numberous sites reporting that it was the passengers that took down the flight in a act of bravery.I never stated i knew the cause or that the government took down the plane.I was asking if any other members here about this.

I work at the pit airport and live near it. I have been to the crash site.
I do believe it was shot down, and I have friends that were on duty in the control tower at pit that also say it was shot down. no names mentioned but the say they watched it on radar...pat

Just some MORE logic.

"HAD" the US government downed Flight 93 they could have simply reported it. It is EXPECTED that the government would follow this course of action to minimize casualties. If one of the planes striking the WTC had been downed how many would have been spared?

It would have been a totally shitty situation that NOBODY would have felt good about but you do what you have to do.

I do believe that fighter planes HAD been sent up for this express purpose and most likely would have gotten orders to down this plane had it not been for the passengers.

This of course changes NOTHING. Kentstate4 remains an asshole.

I doubt even the newer Stingers could take out a jumbo jet at 13,000 feet. I know the newer ones use both IR and UV, but to get a lock on a jumbo jet at 13,000 feet is asking a lot from a shoulder fired missile. And last I heard they don't use proximity fuses, so it has to actually hit the target to do any damage. In this case, it would light up one of the engines, which then pilot would probably jettison (if it didn't take out part of the wing) before making an emergency landing.

Anyway, the explosion seems to have been centered in the fuselage, which is usually not an indication that an IR missile was used.

Anyway, if it was the Navy, think Standard Missile SM2, not Stinger. The Standard missile could nail a jumbo jet in a heartbeat.

Snorman.

Where do I get "my" numbers?  Is that a serious question?  I already said I got them from YOUR all-knowing conspiracy link, read them and weep:

http://twa800.com/images/noclimb.gif

I know a bit about flight myself, big deal.

The max altitude of this system is based on the rate of fuel consumption, the amount of fuel avaiable, and may or may not include expected coasting at the apogee.   It's got nothing to do with your "altimeter destruct" straw argument, it's got to do with how much fuel it holds, how heavy it is, and how far it can go.

It's a precision manufactured unit, not a goddamned bottle rocket from Tijuana.  You seriously don't think the manufacturer would know, much less claim, what the device is capable of?  

Max cieling means how far it works. Your theory blows in general and, if you're counting on it being a Stinger, is not only unsupported by any evidence, it's WRONG, demonstrably so.

A hallmark of conspiracy zealots is this refusal to admit even a physical impossibility if it conflicts with "gospel."  Do youself a favor.  If you are really not irrationally obsessed with the "fact" that it was a Stinger, move on, abandon the Stinger agrument, and call it something else.

Also, I rely on witnesses EVERY day in my job, eyewitness testimony is some of the most unreliable "evidence" available.

The idea that X hundred people were staring at flight 800 BEFORE anything happenned, at night, when all it was was another set of lights on that same commercial flight path all the other sets of lights flys on, instead of concentrating on what they were doing, is ridiculous.  They started looking at it when there was something to look at, AFTER they realized there was something to look at.  Yet you seek to elevate their "analysis" of the first and only missile strike they have ever claimed to have seen to a virtual videotape of a shootdown.

That's like hearing those housewives in Dallas, never heard any gunshot before, yet they can place the Kennedy shooter by interpreting the echoes in that manmade canyon?  Sure.      

Numberous sites? Is that irregardless of the facts? I hope it's not a mute point. Your to write that their is a lot of information out they're.

A small missle like a Stinger or any of the Com-Bloc equivalents would be hard pressed to destroy TWA 800 in an instant even if you managed to get a hit which you wouldn't at that height.  During the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the Afghans could only score hits realiably when they were in the mountains, mostly shooting down at low flying aircraft.  
And if Flight 94 was shot down in mid air, why wasn't it's wreackage spread over a huge area?  You wouldn't be able to hide that much wreakage.  Look at the news footage of Lockerbie Scotland after Fl 194(?) with Flight 94 from PA.  It's obvious that Flight 94 was intact when it hit.  

Just one more OPINION.  

SNORMAN, I too think that TWA flight 800 was shot down.  Too many eyewitnesses said they say a missle, and some of them aer very credible.  

I don't think we shot down flight 93, but would have understood if they did.  However, I would not understand if they had to shoot down an airliner now because it was taken over by someone.  They should arm the pilots, and I would blame Tom Ridge directly for this.  

How can you justify to the people,  "no, it's too dangerous for pilots to have firearms to defend yourself against a takeover, but if a takeover happens, and the plane will not respond to commands, we'll shoot it down."  

Assinine.  If everyone who had ever flown in the last 40 years had carried a gun on board, the total cost of all accidents or mishaps would have been nowhere near the cost of 9/11, in money, lives, or lost liberty.

WL