What do you call this?

"The proposal, which was accepted both by Israel and Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat, is aimed at ending the siege upon Arafat's Ramallah compound. Under the plan, American and British guards will be dispatched to the region to ensure that the killers of assassinated tourism minister Rehavam Ze'evi remain behind bars in their Palestinian jail."

[url]www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156566&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0[/url]

I call it incremental suicide.

You know what?!!!! I agree with you on this, Jarhead_22!

DaMan

I Stand Corrected Jarhead...

This will turn out to have been the "test case."

Pretty soon there will be US Army battalions rotating through there, until no one even thinks twice anymore.

Let the UN that Bush and Powell worship send someone else's kids to die in that snakepit.

[b]It's not worth the life of one American.[/b]

You're damn right, and I won't have the words to express how pissed I am if we lose one man there.  This was my biggest worry.

Both Israelis and Palestinians will kill U.S. troops should we position them in the war zone.  In my opinion that's why GWB is very reluctant to put in our combat troops.  How do you explain it when Israelis have killed American troops - once again ??

Looks as if CIA personnel may be used.  I think it kind of bizarre and sort of fitting that the only element of the U.S. government with any credibility with both Israelis and Palestinians is the CIA !

When/if Director, CIA heads for the region that will be the signal that meaningful negotiations are underway.

"..to begin discussions on the details of the plan proposed by President George W. Bush..."

So now not only will we be the worlds police force, we're going to supply the jail guards as well?

This political butt kissing may end the siege, but it will not end the violence in that region.  The suicide bombings will continue and Israel will retaliate.  The retaliation will piss off Palestinians and the suicide bombings will continue.

The only difference is that more Americans will be in harms way.

Bush... what the hell are you thinking?

I just put another checkmark in the shithead column on my "opinion of bush" checklist.

I can't even express how little I care whether the US personnel being used as Judas goats/hostages/trip wires are CIA, Army Old Guard troops in their Blues or Park Rangers. We don't belong there.

One of two things is going to happen: they are either going to have some ridiculous ROE where they can't look cross at anyone with an AR or AK, and end up getting killed over it, or they are going to have to shoot some Pallie terrorist to stay alive and we'll have more suicide bombers over here at home because of it.

How stupid is Bush to get sold this bill of goods?

We're sending people from the place where life is valued the highest to the place where it is valued the least, and putting them in harm's way. It's a damned disgrace.

We have had troops there before, in recent memory. We have deployed Patriot batteries there for ballistic missile defense on numerous occasions. Not quite the same, but they were definitely "in harm's way."

Were they standing between the Israelis and the Pallies during the intifada massacres?

There are Marines stationed at the US embassy in Tel Aviv, too. This is definitely not the same thing.

Just like George Washington warned...

Oh well, I guess there will be more Veterans returning home to substandard healthcare while the U.S. continues to pour billions of dollars on another country's holywar.

i agree with you guys but on one hand i would rather see this turn into a situation like the DMZ in korea with units rotating through than let those assholes snowball this into WW3 over their 2000yr old pissing contest

The siege of Arafat in his compound could not have ended in a worse way for both the United States and Israel.

For the United States and Britain, it now means 'guarding' the six accused assassins in a jail on the West Bank.

But to what purpose? The six have already been found guilty by a Palestinian 'court' of murder and were given sentences of 'one to eighteen' years.

Do we expect that thse six will be given another trial? Ever?

And for Israel, these six will never have been brought to justice in any meaningful way.

And the author of this misery will be free to go about and preach 'stop the killing' and put an end to all suicide bombings! Yeah, right!

The camel's nose is in the tent. It will not be long before the United States will be sending troops for deployment to protect the peace that does not exist and will never exist in the region of the world. Period.

[img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020428/capt.1020026740.mideast_bombers_cult_ny196.jpg[/img]

Caption: Two men sit in front of posters glorifying Palestinian suicide bombers and fighters on a wall in Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank Friday April 26, 2002. [b]Suicide bombings have grown so much in appeal and popularity among Palestinians that a cult complete with what could pass for rituals has evolved around them.[/b] (AP Photo/Greg Baker)

Yep, I can just see Arafat bringing a quick end to suicide bombings.

Eric The(NotInThisWorld,NorInTheWorldToCome!)Hun[>]:)]

It's very clear that these will not be military, or "troops".

I suspect that IF this ever happens, that it will be men from the State Dept's Mobile Security Detachment.

I don't think that things are going to calm down enough for any of this to happen, though.

Rather than repeat myself, please see my third-to-last post above.

I'm not debating, I'm just pointing out who they may be.

I don't think this proposal will ever be implemented.  I will be very surprised, if it is.

Oh, I thought it was hair-splitting and quibbling. My mistake then.

If the proposal doesn't 'happen', Cincinnatus, then that simply means the Israelis permitted Arafat to escape his well-deserved confinement for nothing!

The six assassins are as free to roam the West Bank as they were before Operation Defensive Shield!

I can't wait to see the outpouring of love and devotion with which the Palestinian people will shower their beloved 'Chairman', as he reappears victorious and unconquered from his hell-hole.

These Palestinians have consistently chosen the wrong folks for hero-worship.

[img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020427/lthumb.1019918329.mideast_israel_palestinians_xgb107.jpg[/img]

Eric The(IDoubtOperationDefensiveWallIsEverConcluded)Hun[>]:)]

So that means we [b]should[/b] send US personnel to make this deal with the devil(s) happen?

Or have you changed your mind on this one?

Jarhead, Hairs need to be split, if we intend to analyze the situation.

If there is a Co. of Marines or Rangers, used as a buffer in Ramallah, it's different from it being State Dept personnel.

If they get fired upon, it makes a huge difference.

If it's Marines, and they're given a lame set of R/E, their apparent "inaction", after being fired upon would be a victory for our enemies.
Something for them to twist and distort.
It would embolden our enemies.

If the same thing happened to State Dept. Personnel, it would be a different situation.

Keep in mind, I have very close friends in the Mobile Security Detach.( many of whom are former Rangers and Force Recon), and I want them to be as safe and out of harms way, as I do Marines and Soldiers.

I think the situation calls for an in-depth analysis, because IF these things occur, the different scenarios will net different results.

I disagree, sir. No matter who the troops draw their paychecks from, any of the scenarios you laid out will result in dead Americans or fodder for suicide bomber recruitment. You may be able to split hairs and make distinctions between Marines and Marines-no-longer-on-active-duty-working-for-the-State-Department, but I assure you that anyone we send will be viewed as American Zionist mercenaries.

How could you misunderstand [u]me[/u]?[:D]

[b]Simply put, I want the United States to have NO PART in sending troops, 'law enforcement' folks, State Department 'guards', or any other personnel to the West Bank, Gaza, or into Israel itself, for that matter![/b]

When Cincinnatus says that the 'proposal would never be implemented', I simply commented that if so, Israel got nothing from the deal to let Arafat go free.

Now why would an old Zionist such as myself have any qualms about having US soldiers help protect Israel?

Simply put, because such troops would provide a highly emotional mix into an area that is already highly emotionally charged as it is!

Remember how many times the Palestinians have stormed Palestinian Authority jails to effect the release of incarcerated terrorists.

None of the jailers themselves were ever hurt, but I do seem to remember two Israeli reservists who were lynched by an angry Palestinian mob, and their bodies torn to pieces.

You may recall that incident. It's the one where the mob used one of the dead reservists' cell phones to call his wife and tell her the happy news that they have torn her husband limb from limb after hanging him!

You may not have seen the video, the lovely mob turned on the newspeople and smashed their cameras, but one video did survive. It's just too gruesome for public airing, however!

So imagine if you will, some angry Palestinian mob attacking the 'jail' where these six scumbags are being guarded by US troops, agents, CIA operatives, whatever, and the very same thing repeating itself.

I do not wish some American wife to get just the kind of cell call that the Israeli wife received!

Besides which, why provide the Palestinians with another 'Church of the Nativity' safe house for them to flee to when the IDF comes calling?  You know the IDF would not fire into any building that housed US personnel, so the Palestinians would flock there in times of fear and reprisals.

Eric The(Reasonable)Hun[>]:)]

Because I didn't see anything in this thread, until now, that looked like "This is a terrible idea and will only result in death to Americans."

Thanks for clearing that up.

So IF this happens, and it might, you see no purpose in analyzing the situation?

That seems a bit myopic.
Yes, we can "wish" for this not to happen, and we can agree that it shouldn't.  Then what?

Whether you like it or not, DIPLOMATICALLY, there is a HUGE difference as to who the personnel are (uniformed military vs. no uniforms).

I agree that there is no difference from the perspective of a mother who loses her son, or of a young widow.
I think it wise, however to fully understand the situation, in order to be able to make appropriate decisions in the future.

[b]This is a terrible idea and it will only result in death to Americans.[/b]

The Israelis have been able to take care of themselves over the past half century without any need for troops from its allies.

I hope that continues!

Eric The(IBelieveItWill!)Hun[>]:)]

My point, which seems to have been missed here, is that this plan is a terrible idea in its entirety. We should analyze this to determine whether it will be a monumental disaster or just a tragedy?


Yes, I may very well [b]be[/b] myopic. I have a condition that only allows me to focus on how this will affect the US and US citizens, including servicemembers and former servicemembers.


Diplomacy is not a language that a people willing to strap semtex to their children will understand. They can only exploit any advantage we give them.


My decision making process stops at the point where anyone tells me that it is a good idea to send Americans into that meat-grinder.

If all you want from this discussion is a reply that either agrees with or condemns the use of Americans (of any type) in this role, fine.

[size=2]I condemn the use of Americans in this role.[/size=2]

Now, IF they are used, can we discuss it, or will that serve no purpose?

Thanks. I don't understand why that seems so hard for you to say.


Can you think of a purpose? As I said, it's like discussing the difference between a monumental disaster and merely a tragedy.

It's a little like talking about what kind of boots or web gear the poor bastards will be wearing.

On the contrary, I see no reason to discuss the purpose.  

Who knows what behind the scenes bullshit goes into making such decisions?
I sure don't.
I also know there's nothing I can do to change it.

But IF we have men on the ground, what occurs will affect OUR future, and the future of the ENTIRE war on terrorism.
I think it's smart to discuss all the possible scenarios, so we can anticipate what happens next.

Feel free to blue-sky some scenarios.

Everyone there will know these guys are Americans, and by definition their lives are more valuable than the locals. More valuable as hostages, more striking as corpses in a newspaper photo or network news footage, more important if they have to shoot someone in a fight for their lives.

Once this disaster gets off the ground, how do you see it playing out differently if the Americans there are State Department officers?

Because State Dept guys are not The U.S. Military.  Our military should not deploy, unless it is to fight.  If they are engaged, and not allowed to fight, it's much worse, than if they were State Dept guys.  It would make us appear weak, at a time when we need to demonstrate strength.


Remember, it was the Arabs and Arafat who insisted that it NOT be Military.

You're still speaking in generalities. How do you see this playing out, assuming the Americans sent over to be sacrificed on the altar of "peace in the mid-east" are State Department employees, some with the ink on their DD-214s not yet dry?

Is it better that this happen because of our a$$ kissing of Isreal?

Jarhead, not disagreeing with your postion, but making the point that our current policy is breeding a generation of walking timebombs aimed at the American people.

Hell Jarhead, I don't know what's going to happen.
None of us do.

How is saying, [b]"No, kill each other and yourselves if you think it's necessary, but we're not going to give you American targets in your own little rifle range here to shoot at." kissing Israel's ass? Explain, please.

I think that Israel Can take care of themselves.

I think this will be viewed with hatred from the palestinian side.  Its like setting a mouse trap.  You got the CHEESE those terrorists and you got a hammer, the gaurds.  You know that some shithead is gonna try to get those guys out of Jail. THEY ARE SO FOND OF CALLING AMERICANS A BUNCH OF COWBOYS. Well I think that is just their own want of being a cowboy. I think you are going to see a , "HAY LETS GO BUST RASHID OUT OF JAIL." .  What happens then??

While the IDF seems like a very tough and businesslike bunch of hombres, they don't seem to be able to solve this problem with tanks and gunships (just say thank you, boys), so something else obviously needs to be done.

Apparently, that something else is going to be American troops, whether regular or irregular, standing between the two warring sides with a whistle and a smile.

Some of our guys are going to get killed. end of story..

With any luck something will happen before they get over there that will show this Nation what it must do TO WIN.

Ben

Quite frankly, I think they have solved the problem with tanks and gunships.

There have been two terrorist suicide bombings in Israel proper since March 29, 2002.

Before that, there was an average of 16 per month.

And I think that Pres. Bush should feel very guilty the next time another suicide bombing happens since he is responsible for letting Arafat out of his cage in Ramallah!

Eric The(AndYouKnowHe'sResponsible!)Hun[>]:)]

I said I wasn't disagreeing with your postion, interjecing US troops into this cess pool is a lose-lose.

You are exactly right.  The Israelis and Planistinians are going to gouge each others eyes out.

What I meant by A$$ kissing Israel is our unwaivering commitment to give the Israelis a stick, but then for some reason, to be suprised with the Palistinines put a stick in our eye.

Okay, I understand your point there. I don't have a good answer for you, but I get your point.