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Posted: 4/27/2002 12:33:03 PM EDT
Now that CAI, and their suppliers FAC, SOG, etc. are once again offering SAR1s I got one for somebody. Well they are NOT SAR1s. What they are doing is taking the still importable WASR-10s and milling them out for high cap mags doing the US part 922(r) route. [img]http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LAB0cCEObShs1nZnF5XD5L0UAariyKzlnzHYCyyn99PP­ibfnFYZcZ34Rov0OWZ09S6Xi04VkDaU/ak01.JPG[/img] Here you can see the receiver and internals have been milled from the 10 round single stack mag it was designed for. High caps fit poorly compared to REAL SAR1s. [img]http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LAAAACIOlCjgYnKn!vo3!7x9zrs!4GSqkaSHv5cjen2O­xNrMedMJ8WO3bJDlDUsQwgq51XoefoA/ak02.JPG[/img] The receiver is clearly marked WASR10, but the rifles is advertised and sold as a SAR1. [img]http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LAAAACMOuyiSb2gaArD9mO7Jv878taqn9TTONMGcNEv7­8OMG8x9d*Ng4xZnK2r69tGKWuFZcE!I/ak03.JPG[/img] You can quickly identify them by the barrel nut. Real SAR1s do not have one, unless they are pre94s. And preban SARs will sell for a lot more money. [img]http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LAD**yQO4ijk2Eh1xor6zuUk1nBPxlQS9Wiafa2ky6dz­ij3IwgvYK*9qQAguifWsBm55KYzongI/ak04.JPG[/img] Same poor quality as the original SARs, crap wood and arrives in a beat to hell box. Now I know many people will find the modified WASR10 perfectly acceptable for various reasons, I just wanted you to know what you are getting into. I'm getting so tired of CAI, FAC & SOGs deliberate deceptive advertising. When I order a SAR1 for a customer, I expect a SAR1.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 12:42:16 PM EDT
Good lookin' out, Steyr.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 12:48:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 12:52:04 PM EDT
Is that milling legal? Say could I buy a WASR and mill it out? They're only like $150 right now right?
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 1:01:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SKSBoy: Is that milling legal? Say could I buy a WASR and mill it out? They're only like $150 right now right?
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Yes so long as you install the minimum number of US parts to be compliant with 922(r). It is very much the same regulations as pistol gripping thumbhole stock "sporter" AKs.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 1:04:38 PM EDT
Should I take this time to mention that ALL of those REAL SARs(1-3) that are NO LONGER IMPORTABLE are gonna be valuable some day? My advice, if you always wanted one, and your local dealer just happens to have one still in stock, you may want to go make a minor purchase.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 1:07:01 PM EDT
Ok, now i'm intersted. Is there anything else that needs to be modified except for the milling?(besides the 7 parts for legality) Like the bolt or mag release....ect?? Did you try to insert a mag? was it a close fit or was it milled to the size of a real AK variant? Is the receiver the same, or will the milling leave weak/thin spots? I have a REAL SAR1 I can measure off. And lastly, do i need to file any paperwork with my buddies at the BATF?
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 1:12:00 PM EDT
Doesn't surprise me CAI would pull that. Somebody on here got one of them from SOG that was advertised the same way. So now we know where the deception started. I think I remember that sometime back someone else was doing that with slr101s; converting them and saying they were slr95s.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 1:12:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SKSBoy: Ok, now i'm intersted. Is there anything else that needs to be modified except for the milling?(besides the 7 parts for legality) Like the bolt or mag release....ect??
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That's it.
Originally Posted By SKSBoy: Did you try to insert a mag? was it a close fit or was it milled to the size of a real AK variant? Is the receiver the same, or will the milling leave weak/thin spots? I have a REAL SAR1 I can measure off.
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Yes and it fit like a boy scout in a $20.00 hooker. Hard getting it in then sloppy and loose. The "receiver" is NOT milled except at the mag opening and that wont matter a bit. What IS milled is the chamber area, not sure if it will create a safety issue. Probably NOT. But might cause feed problems.
Originally Posted By SKSBoy: And lastly, do i need to file any paperwork with my buddies at the BATF?
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No. Just like building a home FAL. If it's legal config, no problem. But I really don't see why you would want to do this? If it were me I'd be out snatching up REAL SARs.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 2:11:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2002 2:14:05 PM EDT by rocko]
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Should I take this time to mention that ALL of those REAL SARs(1-3) that are NO LONGER IMPORTABLE are gonna be valuable some day?
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Are you certain they are no longer importable? I know that in summer of 2000 they did, at least temporarily, stop approving form 6's for barrels and receivers. However, my understanding is that they pretty much did this quietly without fanfare on orders of Herr Clinton. It seems like just as quietly they have reversed this position under a more gun friendly administration. Think about it - there is tons of new stuff on the market. Lots of new kits that would not have been approved for importation if the "ban" in 2000 has been permanent. Global just got Tantal kits, Sarco is now advertising VZ-58 kits, lots of places just started advertising G1 kits, DSA was expecting their HK33 kits in earlier this year, page through shotgun news and see tons of UZI parts kits that weren't here a year ago - vector has a full page ad advertising 8 different variants of semi uzis. Despite all the "no longer importable" claims of summer 2000, CETME and HK 91/G3 clones are still cheaper than ever - hell century even started making a brand new receiver for them. No shortage of imbel receivers, SAR-3's are back, and they never imported single stack romanian .223's that I'm aware of, and on and on and on... My guess is that in the summer of 2000 when the SAR's were indeed unimportable they ordered/bought a shitload of the WASR-10's and they are still going through this inventory and finishing up the conversions. While I'm perfectly aware of the importers tendency to stash some stuff away until it increases in value so they can do the whole "just found in warehouse!" "sale" at 2x the price of whatever they sold for originally, it seems like we are seeing way too much new stuff at rock bottom prices almost 2 years since the "ban" was introduced for it to still be in effect. All these new kits would not have had their form 6's approved late in the clinton administration. The biggest reason to think that the "ban" is no longer in place is that almost all of the dealers at the gun shows have retired their "No longer importable!" signs - only a few still seem to be waving these around. ;) Rocko
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 2:14:49 PM EDT
You can still "build" any 922(r) rifle you want. But I'm pretty sure that the SARS (1-3)manufactured rifles that accept high caps are no longer importable. And MOST were bought up post 9-11. The SAR 3s went almost immediately.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 2:39:34 PM EDT
Right, but the "ban" as it was originally in summer 2000 was basically the ATF's refusal to approval form 6's for any receivers or barrels of "military" weapons. At the very least, this must have been relaxed to allow the import of barrels because of all the new kits we are seeing. The only "unconverted" imported receiver I can think of that still seems available in mass quantities are the imbel FAL receivers - then again, I really can't think of any military style clones that used unmolested imported receivers before the "ban" other than the FAL and the AK series. The HK 91 and CETME clones were both already using US made receivers even before then. AIM is advertising SAR 1's, 2's and 3's in stock again. It is possible that the 1's and 2's are converted WASR-10's or Romak 991/992's, but as I said I don't think single stack .223 romy's were ever imported. It seems like we are exactly where we were in 2000 before the word went out that they stopped approving the form 6's - this is why I think that has sort of been reversed. The only thing different is the converted WASR's taking the place of the SAR-1's, but I think that is likely because of Century making a commitment to buy a large quantity of them. They were probably already bought and paid for before the form 6's started getting approved again. Time will tell, but the fact that "banned from importation!" is no longer plastering every ad in SGN seems to say a lot... Rocko
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 3:30:39 PM EDT
Now that you mention it, ALL the AK receivers are gone too. Everyone is using either Hesse or Ohio Ordnance. There are NO more FMP receivers coming in. I think the banned from importation thing is no longer in SGN because all the receivers advertised are now US made if you call and check on specifics. My guess is another door has closed.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 4:09:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: There are NO more FMP receivers coming in.
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I think FAC has some coming in. Again, supposedly "the last." Hyperbole seems par for the course in this business...
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 5:02:14 PM EDT
SKSBoy: "...anything else that needs to be modified except for the milling?" _______________________________ SA: "...What IS milled is the chamber area, not sure if it will create a safety issue. Probably NOT. But might cause feed problems".
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It's not made like the "Accepts Hi-Cap!" Saiga, right? [i] I've got a Saiga that I really like, it's 100% reliable (with THEIR Clinton mags), but I can't remember who instals the whatzit (fat, or double ramp?) to make it reliable with normal, real-world 30s.[/i]
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 5:31:24 PM EDT
Thanks for the heads up...has Campy on the AK47 site been notified? [url]http://ak.ar15.com/[/url]
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 6:08:35 PM EDT
I ordered one a while back from a guy (DEALER)on Guns america. It was advertised as a SAR-1. I ordered one and guess what I got? A WASR-10!I immediately e-mailed him and chastized him for the deception. He then said he had both but he didn't think it would matter to me. He said he would send me an SAR-1 if I wanted. I said that would be just ducky as that is what the fuck I ordered! Where do these guys come off by thinking it wouldn't matter to a customer substituting something else other than what he ordered? I know they are both just about identical but if he is going to advertise a SAR then send one!
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 6:19:42 PM EDT
In August of 2000 the ATF amended their description of the Arms Import Control act, which says military firearms and parts kits cannot be imported for sale or to be built into a new firearm. This was something Clinton signed back in 1996 that they amended. It effectively banned the SAR's and other parts kits, including the M1 Garands. Since Bush has gotten in office the ATF has "clarified" their position on the parts kits. Part kits can now be imported to be used only as spare parts and cannot be assembled into a complete firearm. Since there is no way to verify what happens to a parts kit after it comes in, the ban on part kits has in effect been lifted. I don't think this applies to recievers though. Which is why you are seeing the WASRs being converted.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 8:04:57 PM EDT
Steyr,...just to note; There ARE real 2001 SAR 1s out there, I bought one on Tuesday. (I elaborated in a reply to your post on Florida Shooters Network) The shop where I got mine had about ten of them, and they let me hand pick mine, so I looked at all of them. They were all actual SAR 1s, marked "SAR 1 cal. 762x39", and all had magwell dimples, were not milled out, and did not have barrel nuts. they all had "2001" following the serial number. BUT, I also have no doubt people would pass of milled out WASRs for SARs. Did you get it direct from Century, or from somewhere else? BTW,....I am in [b]NO WAY[/b] defending CIA,...just letting you know that there are SARs still out there.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 10:19:58 PM EDT
[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Imbroglio%2Fak1%2Ejpg[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Imbroglio%2Fak2%2Ejpg[/img]
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 12:18:33 AM EDT
my dealers has a couple of SARs he's asking $450 for. 6months ago they were $299. by the way, i have one more TAPCO MAK 90 kit left. havent even unwrapped it. my brother and i each built one on Ohio Ordinance recievers. went together pretty easy because the barrel is already in the trunion. just drill the holes in the reciever and slap her together. i dont want this last kit and im not looking to make $ on it. someone make me an offer.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 4:34:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Imbroglio%2Fak1%2Ejpg[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Imbroglio%2Fak2%2Ejpg[/img]
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...[red]That's a sweet looking 10/22[/red][rolleyes]
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 4:40:23 AM EDT
i have read many mis-statements in the above information. first, form 6 imports of barrels, receivers for rifles that can be assembled into "assault weapons (per the '94 crime bill) are flowing. as evidence, all one has to do is look at sarco's latest offerings and arsenal kazanlak usa's imported parts on their bulgarian origin ak's. also, jimmy streetman, at globaltrades has a fresh batch of tantal parts kits in country. second, the mag fit on a lo-to-high cap converversion is ENTIRELY dependant on the skill of the converting outfit.i'll bet you a beer i could have you mag lock-up as good as any ak just by fitting one of k-var's bulgarian catches to it. witness a romanian 991 or 992 lo-cap as converted by ohio ordnance works...perfection in the mag fit department. will century ever duplicate the skills necessary to perform this operation? don't count on it. third, the feed ramp must be re-profiled to feed reliably from both columns of a high-cap map. this is no big deal if you have a high-cap rifle handy to copy. fourth, the "dimpless" wasr, and the romak 991/992 rifles are deemed worthless by ak afficianados due to the lack of akm authenticity. do NOT overpay for one of the wasr-10 conversions. they make good plinkers, but that's about it. sksboy, it's FIVE usa made parts on a stamped akm type ak, for legality. the wasr contains the hamer, trigger, disconector, gas piston and pistol grip. steyr, thanks for the info. the trained chimpanzees at century are in need of a good butt kicking! whaddya wanna bet that once they unload this boatload of dogs, sar's mysteriously become available again. we saw the same thing happen with the 10-shot hungarian, egyptian and romanian ak's before...and the dealers were left holding thousands of rifles that were suddenly worth half of what they had been selling for.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 11:04:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By madmedic: Steyr,...just to note; There ARE real 2001 SAR 1s out there, I bought one on Tuesday. (I elaborated in a reply to your post on Florida Shooters Network) The shop where I got mine had about ten of them, and they let me hand pick mine, so I looked at all of them. They were all actual SAR 1s, marked "SAR 1 cal. 762x39", and all had magwell dimples, were not milled out, and did not have barrel nuts. they all had "2001" following the serial number. BUT, I also have no doubt people would pass of milled out WASRs for SARs. Did you get it direct from Century, or from somewhere else? BTW,....I am in [b]NO WAY[/b] defending CIA,...just letting you know that there are SARs still out there.
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Ordered it directly from CAI. The only reamining SARs are those still in inventory, No more are coming in.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 11:28:10 AM EDT
As shooter69 mentioned above, I got one of these WASR-10 conversions rather than a SAR-1 when I ordered from SOG. I called them twice before ordering to make sure and I was told that they were SAR-1 rifles both times. They admitted their mistake and are sending me a refund check this week which includes original and return shipping. This was a pleasant surprise because refunding outgoing shipping is not their policy. I sent them a letter requesting this and thought I'd have to battle over it. Fortunately, they made it right and I should get my refund and will be ordering another rifle shortly. I am out a $6.00 c.o.d. fee but I guess I can live with that. What I couldn't live with was that butt sucking mag well. Like stated above, on my WASR-10, it was very difficult to insert and remove mags and then they wobbled like hell once in there. Canted front sight, receiver scratched all to hell, and a missing magazine rounded out this sorry deal. I know Romanian AK's aren't going to be great quality, but this one was definitely sub whale sh*t by normal AK standards. In a couple of days I will reorder. I'm going to speak with AIM Surplus and J&G Sales who are both advertising SAR-1's for +/- $300. Does anyone know of any other wholesalers I could try if neither of these work out? BBURN
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 11:49:43 AM EDT
CAMPYBOB: ...third, the feed ramp must be re-profiled to feed reliably from both columns of a high-cap map. this is no big deal if you have a high-cap rifle handy to copy...
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CAMPYBOB, just the man I wanted to hear from! Five questions (about the Saiga)... [list] [*]So WASR-10s ARE like the Russian Saigas, right (I mean the feed ramp)?[/*] [*]Do you know who can redo feed ramp for the best price? [/*] [*]Who do you trust?[/*] [*]Is this really something I can do (I always thought some material had to be added first)?[/*] [*]"Just leave the damned thing alone and keep using it for deer!"? [/*] [/list]
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:11:50 PM EDT
Just curious.....What did they charge you for this "SAR-1"??
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 12:25:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 12:27:03 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Originally Posted By jboze: Just curious.....What did they charge you for this "SAR-1"??
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According to my customers $108.58. FFL should pay you a 10% rebate fee. Shipping is usually free. Prices may vary. Actually, it was the same price as the earlier SARs. Around $300.00.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 6:36:01 AM EDT
"So WASR-10s ARE like the Russian Saigas, right (I mean the feed ramp)?" 1, as the wasr was imported...yes. most of the hi-cap conversions i have seen have had a crude re-profiling job done to them. "Do you know who can redo feed ramp for the best price?" you can do it...for free. if you have a dremel tool, a couple files and stones..it's a 15 minute job. any smith that wrenches on semi-auto's should do the ramp job fo $50 or less. "Who do you trust?" informer (gary), at solstice arms. the guys at the firingline are good, jimmy streetman's shop, globaltrades and jerry gorden at gordentechnologies. any of these guys can handle the feed ramp or the entire conversion job. ohio ordnance works might also be a good place to try. "Is this really something I can do (I always thought some material had to be added first)?" sure...you can do it...and probably a better job than century does. look at a few feed ramps from different countries...you will see the various styles and configurations. while some guys (like mike, from the now defunct msc) welded on everthing from a chunck of old black iron water pipe to small steel extensions, you will find that the extension may not be necessary for fmj ammunition. "Just leave the damned thing alone and keep using it for deer!"? my "common sense" advice to low-cap owners that are not well versed in altering firearms or lack the tools to do so is to simply sell the rifle and put the proceeds towards a proper high-cap kalashnikov.
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