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Posted: 4/25/2002 4:10:19 AM EDT
Most of the old-guard here know I'm a nominal pagan, but a totally tolerant one. I don't as a rule wade hip-deep into the religious discussions on the board...I really don't care what god you worship. But this current development in the news has me so furious I am unable to keep still. Nor is this probably the best forum to post this, but, as I said, I'm pretty furious, and it will end up a lot of places before I'm through. That being said..... An open letter to the leaders of the Catholic Church: I read in the paper this morning that you, the great high council of Poobahs, has met in Rome, and “intensely discussed” the issue of priests abusing the children in their trust. And with great pontification and solemnity, you have decided what is to be done. Said by Wilton Gregory, President of the U. S. Catholic Bishop’s Conference: “There is a growing consensus ………that it is too great a risk to assign a priest who has abused a child to another ministry” Really? Wow. You specifically rejected the policy of “zero tolerance” in these matters. You holy leaders have, it seems, decided that only “serial abusers” stand to be booted out of the priesthood. What you have concluded, then, is that a priest who sodomizes only one or two ten-year-old altar boys, well, shucks, he just needs a little talking to, no reason to lose a good priest over it……. So I’ve decided something, too. You, the leaders of the Catholic Church, are nothing more than a sick, perverted, nest of fat, contemptable scum. You disgust me, as you should disgust every decent person of any, or no, religion. You have re-defined the word "holy" for me. I have never been a fan of your religion, but I have known good people who are Catholic, and respected them in spite of their belief system. But I say this: Every Catholic who does not rise up in shrill protest against the outrageous travesty you have committed is no better than you. Who does not speak out, condones. This is not about religion, you council of arrogant freaks: it’s about your minions buggering little boys. But the idea that such a thing is actually a heinous crime is pretty much beyond you, isn’t it? Crawl back under your rocks, slime.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 4:33:04 AM EDT
AMEN! from another tolerant heathen.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 5:30:42 AM EDT
I have intentionally NOT commented on this situation - because the church, even the priesthood is made up of people, and people sin, and do crappy things - in the heat of the moment. I suppose I was waiting for the "position statement" to come out of this conference. And now we have it. Apparently, only serial molestors make the churches radar as far as unacceptable behaviour. Unbeleivable. Apparently, the church is now no better than Hollywood, and Woody Allen. And lest people think I'm bashing Catholics, this crap is creeping into so-called "Protestant" denominations as well. Alan Keyes did an EXCELLENT expose of it the other nite. (I beleive he's Catholic, btw.) To him (and me) it all comes down to the churches allowing sexual deviants (Perverts, homosexuals) into the church to begin with. If a man can't figger out where God designed a penis to go, that man has SERIOUS mental deficiency, and it only makes sense he'd go after any human flesh he can get. Its time for God-fearing Catholics to make a stand. And I'll stand with ya.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 6:06:26 AM EDT
I gotta agree. While I try to avoid discussions about human right and wrong with Christians (I am one, 'cause I am a sinner for sure, and you know the old saying about throwing stones in a glass house), I must say that this position is totally dispicable. Of course, it will be hard for an abusive priest to continue in his "offical" capacity after the first one when he is thrown in prison to become someone else's bee-otch. I have to believe that was the gist of PJP said when he issued the "these acts are a crime" statement.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 6:08:36 AM EDT
In all due fairness, I think you need to direct this letter more specifically. Perhaps, instead of addressing it to the 'leaders of the Catholic Church', you might address it to the 'US Conference of Catholic Bishops'. A direct quote from the Pope on this matter:
It must be absolutely clear to the Catholic faithful, and to the wider community, that Bishops and superiors are concerned, above all else, with the spiritual good of souls. People need to know that there is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young. They must know that Bishops and priests are totally committed to the fullness of Catholic truth on matters of sexual morality, a truth as essential to the renewal of the priesthood and the episcopate as it is to the renewal of marriage and family life. We must be confident that this time of trial will bring a purification of the entire Catholic community, a purification that is urgently needed if the Church is to preach more effectively the Gospel of Jesus Christ in all its liberating force. Now you must ensure that where sin increased, grace will all the more abound (cf. Rom 5:20). So much pain, so much sorrow must lead to a holier priesthood, a holier episcopate, and a holier Church.
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Seems very clear to me what the head of the Roman Catholic Church wants...yes, forgiveness must be there, but THERE IS NOT PLACE IN THE PRIESTHOOD AND RELIGIOUS LIFE FOR THOSE WHO WOULD HARM THE YOUNG. Seems damn clear he wants it stamped out. UNFORTUNATELY, aside from a few bishops (such as IIRC Anthony Cardinal Bevilacqua, who instituted a rather strict policy on the issue over 10 years ago), many of the US Religious hierarchy seem to be swept up in a sort of progressive movement. Tolerance, but tolerance in the mindset of most liberals. And it filters down into the ranks. I've seen religous speak and act in flagrant violations of Church Law and Doctrines of the Faith. This is just one example of how that movement has affected the Church. To be honest, I'm VERY interested in what the response of the Vatican will be to this....the USCCB needs to get a SEVERE wake up call, and it seems round one with the pontiff didn't work as well as hoped. Sadly though, I'm reminded of the words of Father Corapi (a Catholic priest known for his preaching, his hardline stance on matters of the faith, and his no-nonsense attitudes) when I last heard him speak, regarding the scandal, 'it's going to get a whole lot worse, before it get's better. This is just the tip of the iceberg'. My only hope is that the voices of the Catholics who are truly concerned about the Church are not drowned out by the usual cynics and disgruntled fringe members using this as a springboard for issues utterly unrelated to the real problem.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 6:22:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2002 6:25:59 AM EDT by Celt]
Seems damn clear he wants it stamped out.
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Well, duh. Yeah, it's getting to be really annoying for him, all this fuss. There weren't a lot of them who gave much of a shit the last thirty years or so, but now, by god, they're really gonna crack down. Well, sorta. At least until people get tired of it all and go away. Edited to add:
In all due fairness
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They deserve just as much "fairness" as they showed all the raped little boys. "In all fairness" my Celtic ass...sub-humans, the lot of 'em. No, I don't buy into any compromise on this: The leadership of the Catholic Church has committed, repeatedly, terrible crimes against innocent people, and still just does not get the message. Sanctimonious bastards.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 6:28:42 AM EDT
This reform is also going to have to come from the grass roots in the catholic world. Quite simply, If a catholic discovers allegations of a priest engaging in inappropriate behavior with minors of either sex (consenting or not) they need to dime out the priest, not to the church, but to the police. THe Catholic Church must be made aware that their status as priests offers no protection when they violate the laws of society. Additionally, the grass roots of the church must also petition and lobby their bishops to institute a zero tolerance policy in the church, making it clear that Catholics in America, and around the world, will not tolerate predatory priests. Baby steps aren't enough here. Unfortunately it is my opinion that the soft stance the cardinals have taken reflects another serious problem...the episcopal ranks of the church (Bishops and cardinals) are infiltrated by this behavior. I believe that pederasty amongst catholic priests isn't just a scattered problem among sexually repressed men, but is a semi-organized network within the priesthood. THis network communicates with one another, watches one another's back and works to ensure one another's promotion within the church hierarchy. Undoubtably there are bishops in the RC church that are practicing pederasts and the cardinals know that...heck on of them may be a practicing pederast. Getting such a group, infiltrated by the evil they are charged with stamping out, to take substantive action would be very, very difficult. Someone would have to be willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good, and that's unlikely to happen. The upheaval such a systemic cleansing would cause would be very painful as well. Necessary I think, but not something people in power would wish to call down on themselves. That's why the catholic community must call it down on them.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 6:38:27 AM EDT
Unfortunately it is my opinion that the soft stance the cardinals have taken reflects another serious problem...the episcopal ranks of the church (Bishops and cardinals) are infiltrated by this behavior. I believe that pederasty amongst catholic priests isn't just a scattered problem among sexually repressed men, but is a semi-organized network within the priesthood. THis network communicates with one another, watches one another's back and works to ensure one another's promotion within the church hierarchy. Undoubtably there are bishops in the RC church that are practicing pederasts and the cardinals know that...heck on of them may be a practicing pederast. Getting such a group, infiltrated by the evil they are charged with stamping out, to take substantive action would be very, very difficult. Someone would have to be willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good, and that's unlikely to happen. The upheaval such a systemic cleansing would cause would be very painful as well. Necessary I think, but not something people in power would wish to call down on themselves.
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Yes, yes, and yes again. It won't happen. I repeat my earlier statement: Those Catholics who do not scream bloody murder and, if there is no immediate, meaningful, response, turn away from an evil church ... NOT their religion, the church...are part and parcel of the problem.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 6:54:37 AM EDT
Gods bless you, my son. P3[pyro][^][heavy]
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 6:59:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 7:02:59 AM EDT
As a Roman Catholic it pains me to say this. The two ecclesial weasel words that jumped off the page at me were "serial" and "notorious". In churchspeak that essentially means that only real sickos whose abuse has been made PUBLIC will be dealt with accordingly. All other abusers and sickos will still be considered priests "in good standing" as long as their abuse remains silently swept under the hierarchy's great big rug.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 7:04:43 AM EDT
As a Christian (non-Catholic) I thought it was great that the Pope ordered zero tolerance for child molesting by the clergy. I think it is sick that the American Cardinals are gonna boot only the "serial abusers"! Shok
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 7:05:56 AM EDT
I do hold religion in high regard, however I have never been a member of the Catholic Church for my own reasons. I find the recently disclosed lack of morals displayed by the churh to be repulsive and I hope, no, I know that the scum who are guilty in this will rot in hell. I mean the people who have done these things, covered them up, and in any other way allowed this to go on. The members of the church who sit idly by and watch this in silence are little better. This is equivalent to the non-terrorist muslims/arabs who still refuse to publicly denounce the acts perpetrated by their fellow muslims/arabs.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 7:08:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2002 7:27:32 AM EDT by hound]
usp...you are incorrect...this is equivilent to persons who give money to terrorists organizations----people still tithe to the church
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 7:51:03 AM EDT
Let's say some large company, that served only the great God Dollar, knew that one of its lower echelon managers had abused a child. If the management of that company then transfered this individual to another plant, with the intention of preventing his prosecution, then surely, they could be charged with obstruction of justice. If this was not an isolated case and it came to light that this company (let's say Coca-Cola – just as an example) had a corporate policy of trying to hide the the prevalence of child abuse amongst its staff by transferring them around, and had been doing this regularly for decades – then Coka-Cola would probably wind up bankrupt and its serior officers indicted. However, when the Catholic Church does this, its senior officials are able to admit this past practice with immunity and to furthermore make a public statement announcing that they will continue to offer sanctuary to occassional child abusers (especially, if they are a good managers/priests) and, only if a priest is a persistent offender, will they comply with the criminal law and moral standards they insist that their "flock" uphold. It sounds like something Cardinal Biggles would say in a Monty Python's sketch! Yet, perversely, it seems we are willing to overlook the criminal activities of those who should be held to the highest standards. I think the bishops and cardinals involved, together with the Pope, should be charged with conspiracy to obstruct justice and, if found guilty, should suffer the severest penalty the law provides – simply because they are who they are!
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 8:02:06 AM EDT
What, are the criminal courts closed in the US? Are there not enough prosecutors to handle the upsurge in case load? Has the media not been informed of this situation? Is there nothing on television or in the papers concerning these matters? The Roman Catholic Church has received something from it's highest Priest, that the Islamic World has yet to hear from theirs. A word of condemnation for obvious evil in its midst: [b]This is wrong. This is a sin. This is a crime.[/b] If Pope John Paul II was a younger man, and not surrounded by a coterie of foppish Italian scribes, he would probably make a whip out of some cords, and drive these bastards from the Temple, himself. Imagine that, if you will! Eric The(TempleCleansingIsGoodForTheSoul!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 8:31:32 AM EDT
I wonder if this will lead to the Catholic chapter of NAMBLA? [;)] In all seriousness though, men sexually abusing boys is about as sick as you can get. I can't think of anything more repulsive. Well maybe Rosie O'Donnel naked is more repulsive, but... I know you guys have problems with the Catholic Church and are slamming us pretty well, but as a devout Roman Catholic who agrees with you for the most part I have faith that the Pope and the Council of Cardinals will resolve this. Bad press is not something the Church is a stranger to and their reluctance to "air dirty laundry" within the ultra anti-Catholic media looking for any opportunity to slam Catholics is understandable. The protection of pedophiles within clerical ranks is wrong though, regardless of understandability. And regardless of the short term outcome, justice will be served in the end. Eric the Hun is correct, if Pope John Paul II was a younger man, he'd be kicking teeth out all over the place! His boss will make sure justice is served though, that much I am sure of. I'm still proud to be a Roman Catholic. Slam away.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 8:44:31 AM EDT
their reluctance to "air dirty laundry" within the ultra anti-Catholic media looking for any opportunity to slam Catholics is understandable. The protection of pedophiles within clerical ranks is wrong though, regardless of understandability.
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Oh, give me a break. As I said in my opening post, this is not about religion, Catholic or otherwise. This is about priests f*cking little boys in the ass. If the media find that as repulsive as do I, it does't make them anti-Catholic. If Coca Cola were doing this, I would be what...anti soda pop? I do not find their actions the least bit understandable.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 9:14:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Celt: Well, duh. Yeah, it's getting to be really annoying for him, all this fuss.
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No, actually it's more the matter of once he found out about the situation, and saw the failure of the bishops/cardinals in handling the situation, he's now laying down the law. Unfortunately some of them still are not listening.
There weren't a lot of them who gave much of a shit the last thirty years or so, but now, by god, they're really gonna crack down. Well, sorta. At least until people get tired of it all and go away.
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They deserve just as much "fairness" as they showed all the raped little boys. "In all fairness" my Celtic ass...sub-humans, the lot of 'em.
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I never stated any requests or insinuations of fairness for those who committed said crimes, or those who covered them up. All I was stating is that, in fairness to the FACTS, you might wish to address those who ARE guilty of the crimes specified. Unless you have proof somewhere that the Pontiff and the Holy See knew of all these situations and did nothing about them. I guess this is an example of 'totally tolerant'. 'sub-humans, the lot of 'em', even the ones with no knowledge of the situation nor having any means of preventing the situation.
No, I don't buy into any compromise on this: The leadership of the Catholic Church has committed, repeatedly, terrible crimes against innocent people, and still just does not get the message. Sanctimonious bastards.
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Nor did I proffer or propose any compromises. Only that if you are going to start kicking asses, it might help to kick the ones that are causing the problems and NOT the ones who are trying to solve them. I would go into an explanation of just how differing in position and opinion the US Church heirarchy is from the Vatican, and the relevancy of this to the situation at hand, but somehow I'm sure you'd just continue misinterpret it as my defending the ciminals, instead of trying to identify who exactly the criminals are. Thank you ETH....I'm glad someone pointed those things out.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 9:16:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By anothergene: So I ask, how can a "religion" that sent children off on a crusade still even be allowed to exist in the first place?
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A question for a question.....how can a Constitutional Republic that sent children off on nation building crusades even be allowed to exist in the first place?
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 9:49:00 AM EDT
By Hard-case:
. Unless you have proof somewhere that the Pontiff and the Holy See knew of all these situations and did nothing about them
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Right. The brass had no idea. I'm sure. By icemanat95:
I believe that pederasty amongst catholic priests isn't just a scattered problem among sexually repressed men, but is a semi-organized network within the priesthood. THis network communicates with one another, watches one another's back and works to ensure one another's promotion within the church hierarchy. Undoubtably there are bishops in the RC church that are practicing pederasts and the cardinals know that...heck on of them may be a practicing pederast.
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You two guys probably want to chat in private a little, I'll just step outside. Celt out.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 10:26:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BMANSAR15: I know you guys have problems with the Catholic Church and are slamming us pretty well
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Can't speak for the others, but I am not slamming the Catholic church per se, and ESPECIALLY not "good Catholics "like yerself, whom I trust will "go postal" (in the socio-religious sense, NOT the quasi-govermental mail carrier sense [}:D] )if the head honchos over at NAPBLA (N. American PRIEST Boy Love Assoc.)[}:D] don't get things squared away in a hurry. You will, RIGHT???? [:D]
.....within the ultra anti-Catholic media looking for any opportunity to slam Catholics is understandable.
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Actually, i suspect JUST THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE. Remember, child molestation is just an off-shoot of homosexuality. IF the Cardinals et al adopt this "three strikes and your promoted to Pope" strategy [}:D] the Catholic Church will find an IMMENSE ally in the homo saturated media. Look at Woody Allen. He rapes his own baby daughter, and his punishemnt is - he gets several more multi-million $$$ movie deals on a previously dead career. Look at Rosie O' Donut. Her TV show is failing, her magazine has a readership of approx. 300, so she announces herself to be a dyke, and she's the toast of the town once again. Historically, the Catholic Church HAS drawn fire from the media, but if you look closely, you'll see that started decreasing just the time the church softened its position on perverts. It AIN'T a coincidence. Tolerance of fags by the church = less media critism = outbreak of child molestation in the church. Given the media LIKES fags, don't expect much criticism from the media. Look at how they crucified the Swaggarts and Bakers (whose churches had maintained their hardline against homosexuality and other sins) compared to the kid glove treatment the Catholic Church is getting now.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 11:30:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Tolerance of fags by the church = less media critism = outbreak of child molestation in the church.
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I think you may be onto something here, but this has a lot to do with the philosophical differences between the Roman Catholic Church in the US and the Vatican (the Pope's house) possibly coming to a head. IMO, the American Council of Bishops has been given too much autonomy and has fallen out of step with traditions of the Church (traditions like not allowing gays/creeps in the priesthood). Yeah, you could say that I have some issues with the Catholic Church too, even as one. One thing I will tell you though is that I respect the Pope more than just about anyone on this planet, regardless of the fact that he is (according to my faith) God's emissary. As for NAPBLA, NAMBLA, WhateverBLA... I will be happy to go nuts on them because RIGHT IS RIGHT and WRONG IS WRONG. I don't care who you are, if that is your "thing" then you disgust me beyond disgust. Disgusting nearly to the level of the Clintons. Nearly.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 11:53:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BMANSAR15: .....this has a lot to do with the philosophical differences between the Roman Catholic Church in the US and the Vatican (the Pope's house) possibly coming to a head. IMO, the American Council of Bishops has been given too much autonomy and has fallen out of step with traditions of the Church (traditions like not allowing gays/creeps in the priesthood). .
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I see your point, and wasn't aware of a possible schism in the ranks. But that makes sense. You can't condemn the WHOLE RC because a few priests are azzoles. Or all Palestianians because a few are azzoles. OR all Jews because a few are azzoles. Still, I think ULTIMATELY its gonna fall to you, and strong people like you, to kick the American Bishoprick (could THAT be a more appropriate term [}:D] ) in the seat of the pants.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 12:13:48 PM EDT
whoops---g-man I don't want to disagree with you but...don't fall for that argument. If you come to my house and see mail from Hamas, And check receipts for the PLO, and e-mails about gas stations on the west bank.....are going to assume I support the Israeli's? Nope....everything I said applies to the Members of the Catholic church....aiding and abetting. If they didn't know before, they know now. And how many are going to tithe on Sunday?
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 12:31:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2002 12:33:09 PM EDT by Atencio]
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By BMANSAR15: .....this has a lot to do with the philosophical differences between the Roman Catholic Church in the US and the Vatican (the Pope's house) possibly coming to a head. IMO, the American Council of Bishops has been given too much autonomy and has fallen out of step with traditions of the Church (traditions like not allowing gays/creeps in the priesthood). .
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I see your point, and wasn't aware of a possible schism in the ranks. But that makes sense. You can't condemn the WHOLE RC because a few priests are azzoles. Or all Palestianians because a few are azzoles. OR all Jews because a few are azzoles. Still, I think ULTIMATELY its gonna fall to you, and strong people like you, to kick the American Bishoprick (could THAT be a more appropriate term [}:D] ) in the seat of the pants.
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I don't buy the idea that it is a schism between the US cardinals and the vatican. These problems are not just happening in the US. The cardinals go to Rome to discuss what to do with the Pope and they return with no real difference in policy. The cardinals and bishops will still determine what to do with the offender. The statement about what the Pope would do if he was only younger I wouldnt believe for a minute. He is very conservative and his goal is to protect the churchs image. Even now he wont do anything to the cardinal from Boston. Regarding the statements about how we could possibly remain members of the church after all this? The leadership may be bad but that doesnt mean the faith of the people is. It is my faith and I would truly desire to see changes rather than leave it. Those of you who bitch about how evil the government is, why dont you leave the U.S., I dont know how you can support or live in a country that caused innocents to die at Waco.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 12:49:05 PM EDT
support the US? I have to give them money or I go to jail....I don't have to give money for criminal defense of child-molestors. Why stay in the US? If I could find one place with more freedom, I would be gone in a heartbeat.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 1:20:47 PM EDT
Even though I don’t agree with the first part of Atencio’s post, I do agree with the last few sentences. Admittedly, I’m starting to sound like an apologist for the Catholic Church and all its misdeeds and that is not my intention, so I’m going to bow out of this argument here. I actually do agree with a lot of what has been said here, although some of it is just directionless “F- Catholics” stuff. That’s fine, you’re as entitled to your beliefs as I am to mine. Let me just say, I am proud to be an American even though there are problems within our society and government, IMHO in part brought on by the most widespread corruption of leadership this great nation has ever seen. I am proud to be a Roman Catholic even though there are problems within the Church hierarchy and faithful, IMHO having a lot to do with the leadership of the Church. I’m not going to leave the US despite its problems and I’m still going to be in Church every Sunday despite its problems. I wouldn’t have it any other way. YMMV.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 1:42:07 PM EDT
During a recent radio broadcast, I overheard some statistics that stated that while pedophilia by the priesthood was occurring worldwide, the acts in the United States were predominately homosexual, while those overseas were predominately heterosexual. Anyone else hear anything about that? All I know is that those who take trusted positions as pastors, priests, Boy Scount leaders,etc. and then molest children, are some of those most in need of the death penalty.
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