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Posted: 4/24/2002 7:15:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2002 7:20:10 AM EDT by the_reject]
Let's just say hypothetically that a bill was introduced to repeal the AWB of 1994 and affect all previous gun-related bills. The structure and wording of the bill was so strong that it would truly give back 2nd Amendment rights to individual citizens. No registration, no more 4473s, nothing. Open CCW, you got it. Class 3? Hell, why do machineguns gotta have a class? After all, they cost so much to begin with... No sunset on this bill, either. Let's also assume, hypothetically, that your senators and congresscritters have a very open ear to the public opinion, i.e., YOUR opinion. There is, however, one catch to all of this. Attached (or in politician-ese, "piggybacked") to the bill is a provision completely removing any controls on abortion. No parental consent required, no one required to know, no bans on partial-birth abortions, "morning after" pills, etc. In other words, as open-ended as the section on 2nd Amendment rights. How would you urge your senators and representatives to vote on this bill, and why? the_reject
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 7:27:52 AM EDT
My personal opinion is that the goverment has no right to legislate either of those things. The point isn't (for me anyway) really about guns, it's about control. The goverment should not being making decesions for people. Period. Be it on wheather they want to own a GE Minigun, Drive a tank that get a half mile to the gallon, or eat red meat until their heart explodes. These are all personal choices, the kind of choices that the freedom in this country is supposed to allow and encourage.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 7:29:21 AM EDT
Easy! 2nd Amendment is a Constitutional issue so it applies to Federal AND State Governments. Abortion is NOT a Constitutional issue and so, by virtue of the 10th Amendment, should be delegated to the individual States to decide.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 7:36:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: Easy! 2nd Amendment is a Constitutional issue so it applies to Federal AND State Governments. Abortion is NOT a Constitutional issue and so, by virtue of the 10th Amendment, should be delegated to the individual States to decide.
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While I wholeheartedly agree with you and believe that was the original intended case, both you and I know now that with our current government that this is no longer the case. And in this instance, the ban on banning "abortion control" would be a federally-implemented one, not something left for the states to decide. the_reject
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 7:42:15 AM EDT
Well, since I agree that we should have the RIGHT to do either one, I have to vote YES!
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 7:46:17 AM EDT
Since *I* will never have an abortion, I don't see the need to stop those peopl ewho can have an abortion from partaking in it, I vote for the bill 100%.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 7:47:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2002 8:06:04 AM EDT by drlouis]
tough one. You see the rule is you cant kill inocent people. Makes no difference how old they are. So why shouldnt abortion be illegal? Answer me this (serious question) Is it a FEDERAL CRIME to murder an adult (or an 8 year old for that matter)? Or is murder a state issue? The answer to THAT question will answer whether abortion should be a federal issue. drlouis edited to add that I voted "yes" on the poll, and would urge a vote of yes for the bill as my personal opinion is that murder SHOULD be a state issue.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 7:54:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By drlouis: ...Answer me this (serious question) Is it a FEDERAL CRIME to murder an adult (or an 8 year old for that matter)? Or is murder a state issue? The answer to THAT question will answer whether abortion should be a federal issue.
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It is a state crime, last time I check my state constitution. I'm not debating this, nor whether abortion should be a federal or state issue. I'm presenting you with a hypothetical situation. As far as I am concerned, if the feds think they can be so heavy handed at banning "assault weapons", as well as placing moratoriums on human cloning efforts, why is it so hard to imagine the feds passing a bill legalizing abortion? the_reject
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 8:21:04 AM EDT
I, like Armed Scientist and many others (I assume), think that our federal government has no place in making these kinds of decisions. Whether I choose to own a firearm is my choice and I have to accept the responsibilities and consequences of my choice. The problem is that it's not often recognized that rights are accompanied by such commensurate responsibilities. The same goes for where I worship, what I say, where I live, what job I do, what car I drive, what food I eat, what I buy, who I marry, what I read, ... I think it's interesting that Liberals are often the first to sing out about the benefits of pluralism. But they are also the first to limit an individual's rights and make everyone conform to some arbitrarily defined standards.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 8:26:20 AM EDT
The Fifth Amendment states that no person may be deprived of life or liberty without due process. I would definately consider abortion deprivation of life, wouldn't you???
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 8:37:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MarineGrunt: The Fifth Amendment states that no person may be deprived of life or liberty without due process. I would definately consider abortion deprivation of life, wouldn't you???
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No, I would not. the_reject
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 8:43:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the_reject:
Originally Posted By MarineGrunt: The Fifth Amendment states that no person may be deprived of life or liberty without due process. I would definately consider abortion deprivation of life, wouldn't you???
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No, I would not. the_reject
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Well, you'll need to explain this one to me then. As far as I knew the whole purpose of an abortion is to end or prevent life. Any way you look at it, you are DEPRIVING another human of life. But I suppose a growning fetus is more like a tumor than a human being, right...
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 8:52:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MarineGrunt: Well, you'll need to explain this one to me then. As far as I knew the whole purpose of an abortion is to end or prevent life. Any way you look at it, you are DEPRIVING another human of life. But I suppose a growning fetus is more like a tumor than a human being, right...
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No, I don't, and I won't. That isn't what this thread is about. You wanna talk about abortion? Start your own thread. Don't hijack mine. the_reject
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 8:56:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MarineGrunt: The Fifth Amendment states that no person may be deprived of life or liberty without due process. I would definately consider abortion deprivation of life, wouldn't you???
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The 5th Amendment restricts the GOVERNMENT (not private citizens, organizations or clinics) from depriving a person of life or liberty without due process. So that implies that the GOVERNMENT (not private citizens, organizations or clinics) is not allowed to fund or conduct abortions. The LAWS that punish crimes like murder (and abortion if you're so inclined) are supposed to be left up to the states.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 8:58:12 AM EDT
I would start a letter writing campaign, I agree with both 100%. The government should be here to help us live virtuous lives not limit our rights.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 9:21:58 AM EDT
Sounds like a dream bill to me....hell yeah I'd go for it.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 9:39:58 AM EDT
Agree with all. Let's see: your wife or daughter is raped by the person she despises the most. I think abortion is her call, not mine or the gov't
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 9:57:00 AM EDT
This is a no brainer. The federal government has screwed with the laws and created whole classes of people who are now criminals for only posessing a tangible item. Nothing new in that, but the government has exceeded it's scope of authority in the " it's for your own good " school of thought. The government has been buying votes for the last 70+ years and the republic has been subverted. Abortion while a touchy subject is pretty clear cut. That's a womens decision. No abortion is without risk or emotional baggage so for most it is a very hard decision. The do not get off scott free on that one. The government should not interfere with the decision either for or against.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 9:57:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MarineGrunt: The Fifth Amendment states that no person may be deprived of life or liberty without due process. I would definately consider abortion deprivation of life, wouldn't you???
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[b]Personally[/b], I don't approve of abortions; I'd prefer a world where they weren't "necessary." Where rapes and incest didn't happen. Where unwanted pregnancies never happened. Where no one ever had to make a choice between the life of the fetus and the life of the mother. But we're not there yet and I don't think anybody is served by [b]limiting[/b] options today. Is it a deprivation of life? Of course it is; it is by definition. The difficulty is that the world is one of choices -- and while I have an incredible distaste for the idea of a fetus's life being terminated, I have a greater distaste for any government that stands between a person and his or her own body.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 10:11:32 AM EDT
The perfect Bill... and it should be introduced by Republicans! This would decimate the Dems... a lot of conservative soccer moms who's only attachment to the left party is their stance on abortion would leave for the more sensible party. They'd get over the guns issue, it's lower on their scale of priorities.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 10:31:24 AM EDT
reject- I am not hijacking your thread. YOU brought up abortion, not me. I don't see anything wrong by questioning your thoughts.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 11:54:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2002 11:55:18 AM EDT by Blaze-Of-Glory]
Remove all gun laws. Remove all abortion laws. Let Voters/Congress/Courts decide whether or not a fetus is a human.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 12:33:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MarineGrunt: reject- I am not hijacking your thread. YOU brought up abortion, not me. I don't see anything wrong by questioning your thoughts.
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I brought up abortion in the context of a hypothetical question regarding a repeal of gun laws in exchange for abortion "rights", if you will. We wouldn't be going this far if you had simply answered the hypothetical question that I asked. If you'd simply said, "I would urge my representatives NOT to vote for such a bill because I believe abortion is wrong," then we wouldn't be here at this point. Hell, you could have simply responded calling me a troll, and I wouldn't have blinked. Or gosh, stomp on my hopes and dreams and ignore my thread - how devastating! I could care less about the morality of abortion as it relates to the question I asked. I brought it up to see the responses from the members of this board in relation to the main reason we are all here - a love of [b]GUNS[/b]. To be perfectly honest, I was expecting more responses like yours, and very few rational responses (hooray, AR15.com, you've supressed my cynicism for now). You want to talk about my hypothetical question? Go right ahead. You want to talk about abortion, specifically the morality and/or Constitutionality of it, [b]AND[/b] you want to tell me you aren't hijacking/diverting my thread? Then pull the other one. It's got bells on it. the_reject
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 1:26:10 PM EDT
I'd vote for it/tell the congresscritters to vote for it. I'm a little on the fence on abortion, but it's nowhere near as important as gun control. The second amendment secures the all-important right of the people to defend themselves against and overthrow a tyrannical government. Abortion pales in comparison to the horrors inflicted by certain governments in the past century. I think the choice is clear, no matter how you feel about abortion. On a side note, I was watching America's Most Wanted the other night. I noticed that one of the fugitives that they caught had comitted the crime of dumping her newborn baby into a port-a-potty. How is this different from abortion? It's perfectly legal right before she gives birth, but it's worth a nationwide manhunt after? Hmm...
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 2:36:08 PM EDT
On a side note, I was watching America's Most Wanted the other night. I noticed that one of the fugitives that they caught had comitted the crime of dumping her newborn baby into a port-a-potty. How is this different from abortion? It's perfectly legal right before she gives birth, but it's worth a nationwide manhunt after? Hmm...
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Even as a pro-choicer, that seems ironic... [%|] I don't quite consider the 2nd Amendment rights necessarily more important than abortion per se... It's more my school of thought that the Bill of Rights is not a complete list of the actual rights that we as humans and individuals possess - I feel it is only a partial list that we shouldn't waste our time trying to make complete. However, I [b]would[/b] say that our 2nd Amendment rights, which [b]ARE[/b] listed in the BoR, are under slightly heavier attack than the right to choose whether or not you have an abortion. And referring to an earlier post, I certainly don't think that abortion should be left up to the states to decide, either. There is little difference in state-banned or allowed abortion then what could be done federally, IMHO. But hey, I'm an advocate of personal freedom, what do I know? [;)] the_reject
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 8:37:01 PM EDT
yes I'm mostly prochoice the only part of the abortion piggyback I would have a problem with is the partial birth, I am against partial birth abortions plus I don't think the feds should be getting that involved in regulating our lives, so this hypothetical bill would help get the gov't to the total level of regulation I think they should be at
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 8:46:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: Easy! 2nd Amendment is a Constitutional issue so it applies to Federal AND State Governments. Abortion is NOT a Constitutional issue and so, by virtue of the 10th Amendment, should be delegated to the individual States to decide.
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Link Posted: 4/24/2002 9:49:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gunbert: The perfect Bill... and it should be introduced by Republicans!
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HAHA! The only "republican" that would introduce, much less vote for such a proposal is Ron Paul. The rest of the republicans would show their "bi-partisan goodwill" by working with the democrats and create non-binding resolution.
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